Members mate_stubb Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 Mitch that is my big bitch with Hammond, lack of software upgrades. They are so slow to do anything about it and that is why I am sure their market share is probably not as good with the Nord stuff. The XK-3c is at least an improvement with the Leslie sim and it is a different keybed also. That is why I think it makes so much sense to go the "authentic hardware controller/software organ" route. I'd love to be able to purchase just the software guts of the XK system, but I doubt it would ever happen. The state of the art of organ software instruments these days is really pretty darn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 That is why I think it makes so much sense to go the "authentic hardware controller/software organ" route.I'd love to be able to purchase just the software guts of the XK system, but I doubt it would ever happen. The state of the art of organ software instruments these days is really pretty darn good. Yeah your project will hopefully open the eyes of some of the manufactuers. Will it be two manuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's true, but aren't the brains of the unit basically the same? Why couldn't Hammond have offered some sort of software upgrade that would have, at the very least, given XK-3 users the updated tonewheel set or the increased tweakablity of the chorus vibrato? From what I have read, those are the main "under-the-hood" differences between the Xk3 and Xk3c. Please correct me if I am wrong.. The XK3c is a new MIDI controller with an entire bank of assignable knobs and switches dedicated to controlling external devices... that's the biggest difference between the newer model and the older. The XK3c also offers a new enhanced preamp/overdrive and an added switch for the option of vibrato/chorus on the lower manual. And I believe the Leslie sim has been improved also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mitch Towne Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 The XK3c is a new MIDI controller with an entire bank of assignable knobs and switches dedicated to controlling external devices... that's the biggest difference between the newer model and the older. The XK3c also offers a new enhanced preamp/overdrive and an added switch for the option of vibrato/chorus on the lower manual. And I believe the Leslie sim has been improved also. And that's what steered me away from upgrading to the XK3c and towards the Nord. I was looking for a new sonic pallet. Enhanced preamp and assignable chorus are great but they don't change the base sound which, for me, had fallen out of favor. I feel like I get more spit, warmth and undetrones from the Nord engine. Combine that with the action and how it responds to my ears and that's improved playability, drawbars or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 And that's what steered me away from upgrading to the XK3c and towards the Nord. I was looking for a new sonic pallet. Enhanced preamp and assignable chorus are great but they don't change the base sound which, for me, had fallen out of favor. I feel like I get more spit, warmth and undetrones from the Nord engine. Combine that with the action and how it responds to my ears and that's improved playability, drawbars or not. That's cool. There's a lot to be said for the C-1 sound engine - I seriously considered one before choosing the XK3c. For me the added benefits of the XK3c's MIDI controllers was a big feature that I can make use of, and having real drawbars was a no-brainer coming from a B3 background. And I love the sound of the XK3c. Once I put together my ES4/XK3c rig I knew I had nailed the right choice for my needs. I don't see the need to slam one instrument over the other as some people are prone to do - each has it's strong points. Having two or more good choices benefits the entire market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Spybar Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 Check this wonderful efficient video: Clavia Nord C1 versus Hammond B-3, by a Hammond pro... [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] C1 is VERY IMPRESSIVE! Hope that helps, SpyBar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nillerbabs Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 +1 I got the Electro 3 - love the organ engine, pianos and portability factor, but I'd really like it if someone pulled themselves together and made a really compact dedicated MIDI drawbar controller - non-sound-generating, don't wanna bring a Voce - for Nords. Considering the amount of especially Electro's out there, there might be a potential market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mate_stubb Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yeah your project will hopefully open the eyes of some of the manufactuers. Will it be two manuals? Only when you want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's true, but aren't the brains of the unit basically the same? Why couldn't Hammond have offered some sort of software upgrade that would have, at the very least, given XK-3 users the updated tonewheel set or the increased tweakablity of the chorus vibrato? From what I have read, those are the main "under-the-hood" differences between the Xk3 and Xk3c. Please correct me if I am wrong. Because some of the enhancements done to the XK-3c is not possible with software. It took a hardware modification to implement stuff like split manual V/C. I have the service manual for the older XK-3 and can confirm that split manual V/C is impossible without a hardware change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 The main boards in the XK-3 and '3c are completely different. The '3c benefits from 3 or more years of processor and DSP improvements and processing power. The sound engine in the '3c is what is being used in the new New B3 as well. I don't think the C/V and Leslie improvements for example are backward compatible to the XK-3 because the processors in it are not powerfull/advanced enough to "do the math". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted March 24, 2009 Members Share Posted March 24, 2009 Even when I had the XK-3 I thought it was pretty good. I only got it by accident in August of 2004. Glad I did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted April 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 Ok, sorry to bump this. I went to check out a music store I was told had an XK 3c. Sadly, they did not... it was an XK 1. The whole thing was really plasticy and cheap to me (especially the switches). Can anyone comment on whether the XK 3c is not anything like that? If you had to put them both on a 1-10 scale on build quality, where would they be? Also, just to confirm, the sound of an XK 3c is no where in the same ballpark as an XK 1? I'm familiar with Electros from having a Stage. Those were decent. The XK1 just seemed really really bad. Sounded pretty bad too, from what I remember from a Nord Stage (given, different speakers and such, but ... yeah... bad). In this case, I have a decent idea of what the C1 is like if I figure it's basically like a double Electro keybed. This I know. Pondering what I want to do here as it sucks to want a board and not being able to see it (and I live near a halfway major city too, which is amusing) I know I probably shouldn't care about how the way things are built so much but if something is that expensive heck yeah, it matters. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChromaLord Posted April 3, 2009 Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 The ONLY downside to the Nord is the absence of drawbars, which are of course essential if your erstwhile technique employed the constant change in harmonics. But only YOU know that and don't let these other posters in here pontificate and try to make you feel guilty or second guess yourself about what you are used to or what is more important for YOUR enjoyment/usage. (especially "kingvavy's comment which is ridiculous and infantile) Other than that, in my OPINION, the Nord C-1 is far superior in every OTHER way: The fidelity is highly defined and spacious, the Leslie simulators excellent, and the feel is solid, fast and light. The programming and navigating is straight forward. There is a new version being released, the C-2 I believe. I dont know if these changes update into the C1 or if you are better off waiting for the C2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChromaLord Posted April 3, 2009 Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 Ok, sorry to bump this.In this case, I have a decent idea of what the C1 is like if I figure it's basically like a double Electro keybed. This I know.Thanks! As an owner of both an Electro 2 and a C-1, I can tell you 1st hand the organs are not remotely the same in sound or function. The new Electro 3 DOES have SOME of the C-1 modeling engines but still falls shy of what the C-1 does and to that end maybe the new C2 will able to make the same claim compared to the C1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted April 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 Other than that, in my OPINION, the Nord C-1 is far superior in every OTHER way: The fidelity is highly defined and spacious, the Leslie simulators excellent, and the feel is solid, fast and light. The programming and navigating is straight forward. There is a new version being released, the C-2 I believe. I dont know if these changes update into the C1 or if you are better off waiting for the C2. Thanks.... I'm beginning to think that at least I pretty much know what the Nord will be like -- I know their build quality and engineering at least, it's a known quantity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gearaholic79 Posted April 3, 2009 Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 bottom of page...http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htmsorry that didnt work,you have to click products,then under oem/diy click mke,the bottom of that page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted April 3, 2009 Members Share Posted April 3, 2009 The XK-1 is built in China and uses a standard Fatar keyboard. The XK-3c is built in Japan and uses a the same custom designed and manufactured keybed as the New B3 without the 9 contact circuitry. Unless you reset the unit, you don't know if someone else messed with it. The XK-1 should sound pretty similar to the XK-3c but the '3c benefits from several years of processer improvements in power and speed. It also has the tube preamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted April 4, 2009 Members Share Posted April 4, 2009 I have a friend that has an XK-1 and I sit in with him sometimes in his blues band. It is a totally different unit than the XK-3C. Unfortunately the Hammond products are not viewed to be in the same league as the Nords and I don't know why? What's funny is you I have recordings of playing with clones and in most cases you can't tell it is not real. I have told other keyboard players I was playing on a real console when I was not. Also playing something in a store is not the same with gigging with it. Try to get listen through front of house speakers sometimes if you happen to have someone sitting in with your band. It gives you a different perspective on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted April 4, 2009 Members Share Posted April 4, 2009 Ok, sorry to bump this. I went to check out a music store I was told had an XK 3c. Sadly, they did not... it was an XK 1. The whole thing was really plasticy and cheap to me (especially the switches). Can anyone comment on whether the XK 3c is not anything like that? If you had to put them both on a 1-10 scale on build quality, where would they be? Also, just to confirm, the sound of an XK 3c is no where in the same ballpark as an XK 1? I'm familiar with Electros from having a Stage. Those were decent. The XK1 just seemed really really bad. Sounded pretty bad too, from what I remember from a Nord Stage (given, different speakers and such, but ... yeah... bad). In this case, I have a decent idea of what the C1 is like if I figure it's basically like a double Electro keybed. This I know. Pondering what I want to do here as it sucks to want a board and not being able to see it (and I live near a halfway major city too, which is amusing) I know I probably shouldn't care about how the way things are built so much but if something is that expensive heck yeah, it matters. Thanks! If it helps, I bought my Hammond XK3c unseen and unheard too. Noone had one in all of Atlanta where I live... the stores all had the XK-1, which I owned when it first came out for a short time and did not like. I agree - the XK-1 seems cheap in every way, build quality a 2 out of 10. Some like it, I don't. And I tried the Nord C-1 - build quality of 7 out of 10. It's very nice, good sound, solid unit. Hate the LED drawbars, period. Not crazy about the way it looks - it looks like that red finish was hand-painted on. Ugh. And I really didn't want a two-manual organ though I've played a real B3 for many years. I play a lot of piano and was determined to put a single-manual organ above my piano. I seriously considered a Nord Electro 3 but then... I decided that I had to try an XK-3c. I was skeptical at first because of my experience with the XK-1, but the reviews were so good and the demos I heard were excellent so I got one from Sweetwater (not recommended - they screwed up my order and sent me the XK bottom manual ! ) so I could return it if I didn't like it. I more than like the XK3c... I love it. A 10 out of 10 in every way. Solid feel, THE sound, tube preamps, great feeling keybed, best leslie sim I've heard to date, midi controller features, highly customizable settings. It looks great too. So my recommendation is to order one with the option of returning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Aanalogaddict Posted April 4, 2009 Members Share Posted April 4, 2009 midi controller features, highly customizable settings. That's the two biggest advantages vs. the C1 if you ask me. You can split the XK3c manuals i 3 separate midi zones plus the organ, assign 8 rotary controllers and 8 switches to almost anything you want. It's not totally straightforward, but much easier to integrate in a rig than the C1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdelvecchio Posted April 4, 2009 Members Share Posted April 4, 2009 If there isn't a real tonewheel console available, the XK-3c is the next best thing. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted April 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 4, 2009 I know to listen to the 6 foot tall time travelling bunny rabbits So I understand the action (the keys do bounce up quickly like they should and trigger where they should, right?) and sound is much better than the Xk1? -- great. Did they also fix the really cheap feeling plastic white buttons for turning on the chorus and so on that the Xk-1 had? I mean I absolutely hated the Xk-1. From the pictures it looks like the mod wheels and buttons might be the same? My houses lightswitches and remotes are made better than that. I guess I'm just a little cautious to buy anything Hammond after seeking the Xk-1. It was pretty well on it's way to being the worst keyboard in the store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted April 5, 2009 Members Share Posted April 5, 2009 I suspect you will find something to complain about no matter what you buy. So, please don't buy the Hammond. If someone played an XK-1 and an XK-3c side by side they could tell the difference between the 2. If someone played them behind a curtain so someone else couldn't see which one it was, that person wouldn't be able to tell which one it was. Particularly if they both went through a 3300 Leslie or a 2121 Stationary unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted April 5, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2009 Yes, not wanting cheaply made gear to break on me, or be something I don't like, when it costs $2500 for a single manual is totally unreasonable. As are asking questions about something you can't tell from videos or pictures. Gee, Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted April 5, 2009 Members Share Posted April 5, 2009 We've all given our best advice... you have to get off your ass and try one or move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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