Sampling and legalities

[soundwave106]

Something very similar happened last year involving the stock beats included with FL Studio and the artist deadmau5. Click here for the thread .

(Why does so much of the current music industry inspire this reaction?)

[The Audacity Works]

 

I look at it much differently. To me, the Synclavier and Casio are the same as a trumpet and piano. As for loops, most are clearly labeled royalty free (or not). To say it another way: I don't think it is possible for any human being to "accidentally" break a copyright law about "sampling", or even be accused of it. It's done intentionally, due to either stupidity or belief of old wive's tales. If one plays their motif, all is fine. If one sticks a David Bowie CD in and takes a piece of it, you're not fine.

You and I can believe all we want, and I certainly have my opinions on the matter (which may not differ much from yours). But that's a very different thing from what someone's high-powered lawyer may believe.

 

Let's say...

 

May 2009: Some tiny electro band in Nebraska uses a GarageBand loop as the main hook in a song

July 2009: Coldplay uses the same GarageBand loop as the main hook in a hit radio song

 

What would happen? The tiny band could sue Coldplay but there's not much chance Coldplay figured out which loop was used and ripped the band off, so any lawsuit would probably be thrown out of court.

 

May 2009: Coldplay uses a GarageBand loop as the main hook in a hit radio song

July 2009: Some tiny electro band in Nebraska uses the same GarageBand loop as the main hook in a song

 

What would happen? Coldplay would probably never hear the tiny electro band, and their label wouldn't care.

 

May 2009: Some marginally successful indie band from Austin uses a GarageBand loop as the main hook in a song and gets a bit of college radio airplay

July 2009: Coldplay uses the same GarageBand loop as the main hook in a hit radio song

 

What would happen? If the indie label went after Coldplay's label, some amount of legal wharrrrgarbl between lawyers would probably take place. The indie label would argue infringement, Coldplay would argue "We've never heard of you and besides, it's just a GarageBand loop." More than likely, the matter would be settled out of court.

 

May 2009: Coldplay uses a GarageBand loop as the main hook in a hit radio song

July 2009: Some marginally successful indie band from Austin uses the same GarageBand loop as the main hook in a song and gets a bit of college radio airplay

 

What would happen? The indie band would be made fun of for "sampling" Coldplay, their lawyers would be running scared, and the label would probably drop them for fear of legal wrangling. If Coldplay's lawyers decided to sue the label, they very well might win because that particular loop was already used as a compositional element in a well-known work. The indie label could argue that there wasn't infringement upon the master recording (because the original loop didn't come from Coldplay, it came from GarageBand), but they'd have a hard time defending themselves against copyright infringement, because the song had already existed and was well known. So the owner of Coldplay's masters wouldn't win a lawsuit, but the owner of the copyright very well might.

 

"Royalty free" has nothing to do with one party not being able to sue another party

[Cygnus64]

I don't think it is possible for any human being to "accidentally" break a copyright law about "sampling", or even be accused of it.

 

 

Hypotheticals aside, nobody has ever been successfully sued for using a preset or a loop in an innocent fashion.

 

IMO, this thread is to dispel old wives tales about sampling. Yes, anyone can sue anyone for anything, that's really another thread. One can use their Garage Band loops any way they please, as long as their not intentionally ripping off other people.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Royalty-Free means that you have permission to use it in an original composition. I stand by my previous statement.

You have permission from the creator of the loops or patterns or samples, yes. They won't sue you. But another artist's lawyer can, and will probably be successful, if you both use the same loop or pattern in the right type of musical context.

Hypotheticals aside, nobody has ever been successfully sued for using a preset or a loop in an innocent fashion.

Actually, they have. It was just settled out of court. My friends' lawyer was involved (but it wasn't my friend). Unfortunately, the lawyer was under confidentiality, so I have no info on who it was or how often it happens. You'll just have to trust me.

IMO, this thread is to dispel old wives tales about sampling. Yes, anyone can sue anyone for anything, that's really another thread.

It's highly appropriate for this thread. The wives tale is that "royalty free" means anyone can use it for any reason. That's patently false:

 

1. Almost all "royalty free" loops or samples forbid the user from selling the raw content. However, if you look at the fine print, it's not uncommon to see clauses that forbid the user from selling music created from the loops and samples in a music library... and a few slimy companies state you can't use their "royalty free" content for commercial purposes at all without purchasing an additional license. Either Big Fish Audio or East West tried to pull that crap a few years ago

[Cygnus64]

I stand by my statement.

Actually, they have. It was just settled out of court. My friends' lawyer was involved (but it wasn't my friend). Unfortunately, the lawyer was under confidentiality, so I have no info on who it was or how often it happens. You'll just have to trust me..

This means nothing to me. It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of context.

Honestly, I havent heard of one case in context. I would ask that if someone knew one they would post it. I haven't seen any.

The word "intentionally" can be argued at your expense.

Or their expense. Again, to me this is a different subject. You're talking about "soundalikes", and that {censored} goes back to the time of Bach and beyond, and will always happen regardless of technology. I'm not referring to that at all. Royalty-free is royalty-free. If your song is the same as another guys, that's a different issue.

[The Audacity Works]

Royalty-free is royalty-free. If your song is the same as another guys, that's a different issue.

It's the same issue. If an artist uses a "royalty-free" loop or pattern on a marginally well-known song, it's no longer royalty-free.

 

Believe what you want, and yes, there's only a tiny chance you, Cygnus64, will ever get sued. But your interpretation is very, very different from that of legal counsel.

[Cygnus64]

It's the same issue. If an artist uses a "royalty-free" loop or pattern on a marginally well-known song, it's no longer royalty-free.

No, it's a different issue. If I assemble presets or loops to sound like a Beatles song, that's not the intent.

Again, I asked for an example, and you cannot give one.

But your interpretation is very, very different from that of legal counsel.

Perhaps you should get different legal counsel.

[The Audacity Works]

If I assemble presets or loops to sound like a Beatles song, that's not the intent.

That's not what we're talking about. You said "royalty free is royalty free", which is a myth, just like "Oh, just sample less than four seconds and you'll be fine" and "Oh, change the art by ten percent and it's yours".

Perhaps you should get different legal counsel.

My samples are cleared through the Harrington Music Law Group. Maybe you should stop talking to drunk personal injury lawyers in Cleveland, Ohio?

[TropicThink]

Dang. No more DigitalNativeDance in my tracks.

[Cygnus64]

Maybe you should stop talking to drunk personal injury lawyers in Cleveland, Ohio ?

AAAAH, OK. I forgot, the music biz only exists for people in Hollywood making 12 cents, and the rest of the country doesnt have music, my mistake. Well, maybe you should actually learn to write your own {censored}ing stuff, and you won't have to rip off other peoples {censored}.

[Cygnus64]

Dang. No more DigitalNativeDance in my tracks.

 

 

Use any royalty-free material you want. Our expert won't post a link to an actual case, he's focused on insults and not truth.

[The Hamburglar]

I just don't get why people are so worked up about this. If you're trying to sell a recording, you obviously need to have the rights to the material you're using in your songs.

[Cygnus64]

I just don't get why people are so worked up about this. .

 

 

I'm not worked up at all, I'm just not going to be insulted by someone based on "geography", it's nonsense. When someone pulls the "I'm in Hollywood, you're in Ohio" nonsense outta their ass, it generally means that they have nothing legit to add so they have to resort to that level.

 

Legal schmegal, anyone with a brain is going to be fine. Nobody should be hesitant to use their resources. No, your stuff can't sound like other peoples, as I said it's a different issue. If your stuff sounds like other peoples, it might be time to re-think your musical skills.

[The Audacity Works]

Cygnus is right. If all you do is make music in your bedroom, and no one else cares about it, yeah

[Cygnus64]

Cygnus is right. If all you do is make music in your bedroom, and no one else cares about it, yeah

[Thorhead]

Dude, you have an opportunity here, so skool us. Seriously, go ahead. I've asked you about 6 times to give us an example, I'm asking again. Give an example besides "my imaginary friend did this and this, he can't talk about it though." All you're doing is perpuating myths. I've been wrong 16 million times in my life, it could be 16 million 1. I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be. But just randomly spouting off without one iota of proof does nothing. I would be happy to admit I am wrong, so prove me wrong. I used a loop in a song, straight from the Korg X50 without alterations. I did it for Sony. I'm not seeing a lot of people knocking my door down. I made some serious coin. It can be done. Therefore, before you make a bigger ass of yourself, insulting people with "fat wives" and comments a 3 year old would make, put your money where you world-famous producer mouth is and give a link to an actual example. If not, you're just playin the fool.

WOW. Made music for sony with an X50 loop hehe. BTW someone in this thread already gave an example.

But as audacity said it has mainly to do with "luck".

Uh, and BTW audacity loop for sony isnt going to get enough publicity, and X50 stuff most likely hasnt been ever used before either, so you are pretty safe.

As always "something happening to me once" doesnt really tell anything about the big picture.

BTW can you point me to sony? I own an X50 too and am pretty compotent player too. I could use some

[Cygnus64]

BTW can you point me to sony?

550 Madison Ave, NYC. Beautiful building with perhaps the best lobby in NYC. Nice views on the top floor overlooking the park.

X50 stuff most likely hasnt been ever used before either,

The same loop is in the Triton and the MicroX. Surely somebody besides me liked it.

As always "something happening to me once" doesnt really tell anything about the big picture.

Correct, both ways. This is why I am looking for an example.

BTW someone in this thread already gave an example.

And quite an example. I remember that thread. Some idiot intentionally copied some other dudes stuff, right down to the title. That's exactly the kinda stuff I've been talking about the whole thread. It was no accident, it was on purpose.

[Thorhead]

550 Madison Ave, NYC. Beautiful building with perhaps the best lobby in NYC. Nice views on the top floor overlooking the park. The same loop is in the Triton and the MicroX. Surely somebody besides me liked it. Correct, both ways. This is why I am looking for an example. And quite an example. I remember that thread. Some idiot intentionally copied some other dudes stuff, right down to the title. That's exactly the kinda stuff I've been talking about the whole thread. It was no accident, it was on purpose.

Ok, which loop you used and how did you get "in"?

[JohnBenussi]

Ok, which loop you used and how did you get "in"?

 

 

I'm not on anyone's side, but don't expect responses to questions you aren't in a position to make...This question has been asked by onlookers trying to get their foot in the door (myself included) and I truly doubt he's going to itemize the *how* as to how he did it...

[Thorhead]

I'm not on anyone's side, but don't expect responses to questions you aren't in a position to make...This question has been asked by onlookers trying to get their foot in the door (myself included) and I truly doubt he's going to itemize the *how* as to how he did it...

 

 

Someone should consider a new... sarcasm detector.

 

Lol, If I wanted to get a job at sonys, I would E-mail them, not speak {censored} at a forum. Also I live on the other side of the globe. He probably Emailed them,,, Perhaps you should try too?

 

2nd. I can ask WTF ever I want in a very non serious internet forum. How do you know my position on anything exactly?

 

Though I am still intrested on what combi it was you used just cause I own a X50 =P. (not that there are that many to choose from)

[ElectricPuppy]

When did everyone start getting angry? Stop being angry! Don't make me turn this thread around!

[The Audacity Works]

Dude, you have an opportunity here, so skool us. Seriously, go ahead. I've asked you about 6 times to give us an example, I'm asking again. Give an example besides "my imaginary friend did this and this, he can't talk about it though."

Look, Cygnus. I'm not gonna call my lawyer and ask him "Hey Scott. I'm in an internet argument and need a second example

[Cygnus64]

Look, Cygnus. I'm not gonna call my lawyer and ask him "Hey Scott. I'm in an internet argument and need a second example

[JohnBenussi]

Someone should consider a new... sarcasm detector. Lol, If I wanted to get a job at sonys, I would E-mail them, not speak {censored} at a forum. Also I live on the other side of the globe. He probably Emailed them,,, Perhaps you should try too? 2nd. I can ask WTF ever I want in a very non serious internet forum. How do you know my position on anything exactly? Though I am still intrested on what combi it was you used just cause I own a X50 =P. (not that there are that many to choose from)

You're completely entitled to ask whatever you like:thu:
I'd suggest entering a new line of work if you were, or are a sarcastic person, seriously.... Please don't get angry, guy...This is the internet.

I wouldn't call this forum *non serious* because as you are undoubtedly aware, well just reread your post!

I just found your question to Cygnus a bit erroneous.
Just don't forget that as its your right to say *WTF ever* you want, so does another. Noam Chomsky is a good writer. Perhaps reading his works may help you in this regard.

I meant no offense.

[JohnBenussi]

Right, you can't find one on your own. You don't have to make any calls, they don't exist, not in the context of this thread. Audacity, you don't need a second example. You don't need it because you don't have a FIRST example. If that Deadmau5 nonsense is an idea of an example, than we are light-years apart. That's an example of some idiot ripping off another guy, and flaunting it. It has nothing to do with anything. It's musical plaigarism at its best. The last thing a young, budding musician needs to worry about is some scare tactic about this kinda stuff. If ya don't rip off other people's crap, you'll be fine. The Deadmaus poser was incredibly aware, he even stole the title as I recall. Again, whats the point? A piano, cello, DX7, Rompler preset, royalty-free sample: all the exact same thing. It's not copyright 101, it's "are you smarter than a fifth grader" stuff. You can't rip off other people's crap with a piano. You can't rip it off with a DX7 or any other tool. You can't rip other people's crap off, period. My 8 year old niece doesnt know what a rompler is, but she knows the concept of ripping something off. You seem to be trying to differentiate between a piano and a loop, and there's no difference. I honestly don't think there is one person that can't figure out what "Royalty-free" means. It's like buying a baseball bat at the sporting goods store, smacking someone over the head with it, and thinking it's ok because you bought it to play baseball. It precludes them as long as they don't steal other people's {censored}, which is no different than the same rules that have been going on since the time of Shakespeare and earlier. Buying a royalty-free quill doesnt give you the right to rip off Shakespeare. What it does give you are the same words and the same alphabet. The odds of the second composer copying the first are really, really high. I don't know the patch, but it would have to be in the same key, same tempo, on and on. That stuff just doesnt happen, it's intentional. Royalty-free= NOT a license to steal. No different than in Bach's time. For the point of discussion I will concede this: similiarities in music to the point of copyright hassles are probably like getting hit by lightning as a shark is biting you. I'm sure at some point, of the 7 trillion songs written in history, 2 or more songs by total strangers sounded really similiar. But the odds are astronomical when you consider the variables. I assure you, the only way that would happen is if someone set out to rip me off. Don't worry, I am officially asking for a gigantic group hug, like they had on Mary Tyler Moore. I have no beef at all with Audacity and like him quite a bit, it's been a spirited thread. 1. Some latin one, I dont recall the name. 2. I work really, really, really, really hard at music.:thu

I completely agree with your position, but I wonder..
How can sampling a piano, say a Yamaha C7 for example constitute having to pay Yamaha fees for the mic recordings?

This doesn't make sense?
Do I have to pay Craftsman for sampling a lawnmower?