Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc This was at least indirectly addressed to me, so I'll simply respond by saying this: I have never hit the kind of mental, emotional, or physical rock-bottom that you're talking about here. Ergo, I've never been "weakened" in the way you describe. My spiritual awareness, such as it is, is not based on fear, or dogma, or slavish obedience to what someone else has forced upon me, but rather upon my own direct experience as a conscious being. If being conscious is part of your definition of "weakness," then it is perhaps understandable why you may at times find it a struggle to find a reason to get up in the morning. I intend no offense to you with these words; I merely wish to point out the pointlessness of letting human weakness and human frailty and human cruelty limit and define your own perception of reality.Chris I apologize for the sweeping generalization. My father went to seminary school (Baptist) when I was younger, I've seen first hand what the church does. I at one point pledged my life to god, consciously, with no persuasion. I found working at a church to be alarming at the practices encouraged. I was taught Evangelism Explosion which focuses primarily on catching people at weak moments in their lives. Deaths, divorces, etc. The church failed my father, and it has failed me. I cannot say I don't believe in god, but the belief matters less and less to me when I see what the church does to it's patrons. There is no god there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hal9000 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Elric No, that's just a benefit of fanaticism in any form, it's not specific to the bible. The only 'proof' such evidence provides is that when administered in a certain way the bible's message is indeed one of the things capable of producing such a state change it says nothing about the quality or desirableness of said state change and it is trivial to find many counter examples where such a change was for the worse from one perspective or another.Perhaps you'd like to offer evidence of a complete reversal in someone's life as the result of becoming an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Elric No, that's just a benefit of fanaticism in any form, it's not specific to the bible. The only 'proof' such evidence provides is that when administered in a certain way the bible's message is indeed one of the things capable of producing such a state change. It also says nothing about the likelihood that the quality or desirableness of said state change will be positive as it is trivial to find many counter examples where such a change was for the worse from one perspective or another. So, at the best case, it proves something that's more or less self evident and at the worst case implies it can be as dangerous or hamrful as it is "good". I couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by hal9000 Perhaps you'd like to offer evidence of a complete reversal in someone's life as the result of becoming an atheist. Your logic is flawed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cas Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 I myself am agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Elric Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by hal9000 Perhaps you'd like to offer evidence of a complete reversal in someone's life as the result of becoming an atheist. I've known at least one personally. And as Josh points out, whether or not atheism is very life affirming has nothing to do with what I said from a logical argument standpoint. See the foot note I added to the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I apologize for the sweeping generalization. My father went to seminary school (Baptist) when I was younger, I've seen first hand what the church does. I at one point pledged my life to god, consciously, with no persuasion. I found working at a church to be alarming at the practices encouraged. I was taught Evangelism Explosion which focuses primarily on catching people at weak moments in their lives. Deaths, divorces, etc.The church failed my father, and it has failed me. I cannot say I don't believe in god, but the belief matters less and less to me when I see what the church does to it's patrons. There is no god there. I hear you, man. Believe me, I really do. The church has failed and is failing millions of people even as we speak here -- it sickens me. I'm still, at least for now, trying to deal with that from the inside. But then, I didn't come through the (forgive me, I mean no offense) rather rigid system of Baptist theology ... my background is Episcopalian. But my denomination is in a very bad way, too, these days, and the result is that the church more often then not simply isn't there when real people need real help. For what little it may be worth, I personally don't think anyone's going to "find God" inside a church. If anything, I think it's more about allowing God to find you, wherever you happen to be. Again, just my opinion -- I'm not shopping for converts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MCon Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy And for the church guys... sorry, but I've seen first hand what you guys do to people. Me too, I've seen it first hand. I've seen 'church guys' feed the homeless. I've seen them care for those who cannot care for themselves. I've seen them act out of love and compassion for those who are faced with adversity. I've seen them welcome people with open arms no matter what their beliefs are. Here in Houston I've seen them organize a massive effort to feed refugees from New Orleans who were transplanted here because the government did not put up the money to do it. I am somewhat disappointed by the stereotypes that many often employ with regards to church-goers. It is true it is not all good, but such is the way of the world. However, those that *do* work towards the betterment of their fellow man, even if you do not share in their beliefs, do not deserve the negativity that is so often associated with those who *do not* work towards a benevolent end. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc I hear you, man. Believe me, I really do. The church has failed and is failing millions of people even as we speak here -- it sickens me. I'm still, at least for now, trying to deal with that from the inside. But then, I didn't come through the (forgive me, I mean no offense) rather rigid system of Baptist theology ... my background is Episcopalian. But my denomination is in a very bad way, too, these days, and the result is that the church more often then not simply isn't there when real people need real help. For what little it may be worth, I personally don't think anyone's going to "find God" inside a church. If anything, I think it's more about allowing God to find you, wherever you happen to be. Again, just my opinion -- I'm not shopping for converts. Exactly. As a kid I always wanted god so bad, but used to think god didn't want me. No prayers were answered, no hope, no happiness. Its hard when you're 16 and you have nobody to turn to except for this supposed being of love, or the church that supports him, and you get nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by grumphh The first part is where we differ. I agree on the second part, obviously there has to be motivation, but since we differ on the first part i don't think there is any point in continuing this discussion. And FWIW, yes, i felt, although not offended, a sting at reading your thoughts. Yeah, you're right, {censored}. What have we got to learn from each other, right? NOthing, no common ground. It's either one way or the other. Why put any effort into it all? I have my opinions, and that's all they are. Probably ill-informed. Maybe ignorant. But I have enough life experience to trust my own instincts and opinions. They have served me well enough so far. If this person has lost their spirit. Lost any will to DO something. To DO what they NEED to do....THIS PERSON (josh's dad) STILL HAS PEOPLE THAT DEPEND ON HIM!... well maybe all is lost after all. Maybe Josh and his family should take a little trip to Dad's house. Give him hugs and tell him how important he is to them. MAybe Josh, you are your sibs no longer think he is important? Maybe he knows it? I dunno. I guess I am done here. Josh (and grumph) don't want to hear the truth. Come on here...looking for answers, and then blow off someone that really DOES want to help, but the answer isn't what you want to hear. So it's dismissed like dog {censored}. {Shrugs...walks away} Walking away but thinking: Let's see life...besides music. Hmm. A sunset over the gulf of mexico. Watching my daughter chase dolphins down the beach. The mechanics of a low flying jet airplane. The thrill of a mountain bike careening down a rocky hillside....24 miles...one way in and one way out. The wonder of brightly burning stars and what could be out there. A chunk of rock, and what stories IT could tell me, if it could talk. A green tree that appears to die for the winter, barely alive...yet blooms to a bright green again in the spring. A dozen strange and exotic birds that need a contraption of mankind to make their 1000 mile journey for their cycle of life, talk about a STRUGGLE! A mulitude of cultures and the accompanying cacophony of psychic noise they generate. Books, film and literature than get take you from a microscopic scrap of life to the other side of the universe. And a billion other mysteries....Just some of the things that just MIGHT contribute to making my life worth living. but alas only music makes life worth living.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MCon Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I apologize for the sweeping generalization. My father went to seminary school (Baptist) when I was younger, I've seen first hand what the church does. I at one point pledged my life to god, consciously, with no persuasion. I found working at a church to be alarming at the practices encouraged. I was taught Evangelism Explosion which focuses primarily on catching people at weak moments in their lives. Deaths, divorces, etc.The church failed my father, and it has failed me. I cannot say I don't believe in god, but the belief matters less and less to me when I see what the church does to it's patrons. There is no god there. I'm sorry to hear that and I didn't mean to sound harsh in my last post. I belong to a Lutheran denomination and it has always been very open and understanding to those who do or do not believe. One thing we believe in is that God has infinite mercy and forgiveness, not infinite anger and wrath. I have never once been told anything that would imply any sort of 'wrath of God' scenarios that you hear so often in other churches. I think it is a disservice to the religion and not in any way consistent with the teachings of Jesus and true Christianity. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by MCon Me too, I've seen it first hand. I've seen 'church guys' feed the homeless. I've seen them care for those who cannot care for themselves. I've seen them act out of love and compassion for those who are faced with adversity. I've seen them welcome people with open arms no matter what their beliefs are. Here in Houston I've seen them organize a massive effort to feed refugees from New Orleans who were transplanted here because the government did not put up the money to do it. I am somewhat disappointed by the stereotypes that many often employ with regards to church-goers. It is true it is not all good, but such is the way of the world. However, those that *do* work towards the betterment of their fellow man, even if you do not share in their beliefs, do not deserve the negativity that is so often associated with those who *do not* work towards a benevolent end.Matt I don't put much weight on things like feeding the homeless. Any rich and guilty man can feed the homeless. If you've seen these church events, then you've seen the reasons why people do this. An ulterior motive kinda negates the charity. I have not experienced the "wrath of god" type of ministry. Most churches are smarter now and know that with todays culture, they'll only garner attendance through love and acceptance. I don't expect any christian type persons to even care to understand me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hal9000 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Elric I've known at least one personally. And as Josh points out, whether or not atheism is very life affirming has nothing to do with what I said from a logical argument standpoint. See the foot note I added to the original post. I'm not actually interested in the logical standpoint of the argument because I understand your reasoning. I'm curious as to the case of conversion to atheism and how the person was helped? Of course, in the case of atheism, "truth," "morals," and "help" are all relative, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by 17 Tubes Yeah, you're right, {censored}. What have we got to learn from each other, right? NOthing, no common ground. It's either one way or the other. Why put any effort into it all? I have my opinions, and that's all they are. Probably ill-informed. Maybe ignorant. But I have enough life experience to trust my own instincts and opinions. They have served me well enough so far. If this person has lost their spirit. Lost any will to DO something. To DO what they NEED to do....THIS PERSON (josh's dad) STILL HAS PEOPLE THAT DEPEND ON HIM!... well maybe all is lost after all. Maybe Josh and his family should take a little trip to Dad's house. Give him hugs and tell him how important he is to them. MAybe Josh, you are your sibs no longer think he is important? Maybe he knows it? I dunno. I guess I am done here. Josh (and grumph) don't want to hear the truth. Come on here...looking for answers, and then blow off someone that really DOES want to help, but the answer isn't what you want to hear. So it's dismissed like dog {censored}. {Shrugs...walks away} Walking away but thinking: Let's see life...besides music. Hmm. A sunset over the gulf of mexico. Watching my daughter chase dolphins down the beach. The mechanics of a low flying jet airplane. The thrill of a mountain bike careening down a rocky hillside....24 miles...one way in and one way out. The wonder of brightly burning stars and what could be out there. A chunk of rock, and what stories IT could tell me, if it could talk. A green tree that appears to die for the winter, barely alive...yet blooms to a bright green again in the spring. A dozen strange and exotic birds that need a contraption of mankind to make their 1000 mile journey for their cycle of life, talk about a STRUGGLE! A mulitude of cultures and the accompanying cacophony of psychic noise they generate. Books, film and literature than get take you from a microscopic scrap of life to the other side of the universe. And a billion other mysteries....Just some of the things that just MIGHT contribute to making my life worth living. but alas only music makes life worth living.... I'm frustrated that you apparently didn't read the entire thread and realize where I'm at in my relationship with my father. There is nobody to depend on him and that is what kept him going over the past years. He has a giving heart, with nobody to give to. I'm not sure if english is your first language, so I'll just point out that I said "Music is all I value". I meant that there are plenty of other things in life, but the only thing that I cherish and have any draw to, is music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by hal9000 I'm not actually interested in the logical standpoint of the argument because I understand your reasoning. I'm curious as to the case of conversion to atheism and how the person was helped? Of course, in the case of atheism, "truth," "morals," and "help" are all relative, yes? By nature, you cannot have an argument if there is no logical standpoint... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members deadwrong666 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 MEANING OF LIFE OK, here is Britney spears popping out lil'Preston....... Anyone got the backend view of Prestons head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pennypusher Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 if you're asking this question on the HC amp forum, I'd say you're pretty much hopeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MCon Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I don't put much weight on things like feeding the homeless. Any rich and guilty man can feed the homeless. If you've seen these church events, then you've seen the reasons why people do this. An ulterior motive kinda negates the charity.I don't expect any christian type persons to even care to understand me though. A lot of assumptions here. You seem to pretty well have your mind made up and know 'the way it is'. You assume that if a church does charity work they *must* have an ulterior motive and it couldn't possibly come from the goodness of their hearts. You assume that if someone is a Christian they *must* not care to understand you. Perhaps I shouldn't expect you to understand that there is more to it then your unfortunate experience has shown you, but I hope that someday you will realize it was the exception and certainly not the way it should have been. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hal9000 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy By nature, you cannot have an argument if there is no logical standpoint... I was talking about Elric's post, not mine. I'm curious about the answer, not to prove that the Bible is the only thing that helps people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I'm frustrated that you apparently didn't read the entire thread and realize where I'm at in my relationship with my father. There is nobody to depend on him and that is what kept him going over the past years. He has a giving heart, with nobody to give to.I'm not sure if english is your first language, so I'll just point out that I said "Music is all I value". I meant that there are plenty of other things in life, but the only thing that I cherish and have any draw to, is music. NO...YOU are the one that can't read. You're so wrapped up in your pity, you can't understand what I say to you. I said: GO to your father. Tell him how much you love him. Tell him that you still need HIS love and guidance. Take your siblings with you. But maybe you don't really give a damn after all? And he knows it? And I tell you this...you read my words and scoff. HAve you ever even been on a mountain bike careening practcially out of control down the mountainside....12 miles into the trial and not a single human around? Well, maybe you have, but I'll go on a limb and say you haven't. I don't know you, the same as you don't know me....but.... ... how do you KNOW you're not drawn to these things if you've never done it? Experiement! Get away from the computer and go DO something. The whole WORLD is waiting to show you it's value and gifts, if only you would try. Tried scuba diving? Sky diving? Ever build a computer? Or HAM radio? These things are indeed challenging. The world has a lot to offer, unless you box yourself in with pity and denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by MCon A lot of assumptions here. You seem to pretty well have your mind made up and know 'the way it is'.I'm not firm... I just don't often get arguments that are well formed or as open as mine. I'm definately open to someone changing my mind, but I can't respect that of someone who refuses to be wrong. Thats somewhat illogical.You assume that if a church does charity work they *must* have an ulterior motive and it couldn't possibly come from the goodness of their hearts.I didn't say that. There are a few people that I'm sure do it out of kindness, but like I said... a few.You assume that if someone is a Christian they *must* not care to understand you.I never said that either. Thats also an odd jump. Being a Christian doesn't negate humanity, and thus can't negate the care to understand. I think you're on the defensive, with nothing to be defensive about.Perhaps I shouldn't expect you to understand that there is more to it then your unfortunate experience has shown you, but I hope that someday you will realize it was the exception and certainly not the way it should have been.I've seen exceptions, but the overwhelming tide forces me to generalize in passing arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Josh Savoy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by 17 Tubes NO...YOU are the one that can't read. You're so wrapped up in your pity, you can't understand what I say to you.I said:GO to your father. Tell him how much you love him. Tell him that you still need HIS love and guidance. Take your siblings with you.But maybe you don't really give a damn after all? And he knows it?And I tell you this...you read my words and scoff. HAve you ever even been on a mountain bike careening practcially out of control down the mountainside....12 miles into the trial and not a single human around? Well, maybe you have, but I'll go on a limb and say you haven't. I don't know you, the same as you don't know me....but....... how do you KNOW you're not drawn to these things if you've never done it?Experiement! Get away from the computer and go DO something. The whole WORLD is waiting to show you it's value and gifts, if only you would try. Tried scuba diving?Sky diving?Ever build a computer? Or HAM radio?These things are indeed challenging. The world has a lot to offer, unless you box yourself in with pity and denial. I've been to my father. I've said that. I've done everything I can, he doesn't want help. There is nothing I can do, and I resent him for it. That's the point of this whole thread... but you can't infer that can you? Why does it matter what I've done? You're making insulting assumptions that are completely off based. You don't know who I am. I'd appreciate it if you didn't project your rhetoric at me... you can't make a circle block fit in a square hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy Exactly. As a kid I always wanted god so bad, but used to think god didn't want me. No prayers were answered, no hope, no happiness. Its hard when you're 16 and you have nobody to turn to except for this supposed being of love, or the church that supports him, and you get nothing. For me, it's always been important to make a distinction between God Him- (or Her-, or It-) self and the earthly institution of the church, which is comprised of human beings. I find that God rarely matches my expectations; my experience of God, in those rare and wonderful instances when I've stumbled into some kind of connection, has always been different from what I thought it would be beforehand. I think every prayer I've ever made has been answered... but I think 9 times out of 10, I've *missed* the answer because I was expecting something else. It's one of the hardest things there is, I think, in our culture and at this point in time, to put aside my cynicism and disappointment and frustration (and fear -- don't get me goin' on the current political climate! ) long enough to imagine that God might have any interest in any of us, let alone *me*. I remember how jaded I was at 16, and I can't imagine what it would have been like to have been surrounded by the kind of church environment you describe. All I can say is that God has surprised me (and I've ended up surprised at myself) more times than I can count between 16 and 35. Now the earthly church, on the other hand . . . well, that rarely surprises me these days. I should first mention that I do share MCon's point that there are a great many sincere individuals who honestly and unselfishly do good work through the church these days. However, I've had some very negative experiences even within one of the traditionally "open-minded" denominations (Episcopal) when it comes to witnessing (and sometimes being on the receiving end) of church members' using Scripture as a weapon to demonize particular groups of human beings, using narrow-minded dogmatism to squelch real spirituality, and using prejudice as a substitute for the renewing, transformative compassion that Christ's actual teachings demand of those who would follow Him. As with many institutions, religious or secular, oftimes the church as a group-entity can be motivated by fear -- fear of those groups & individuals who are defined as "different"; fear of not being able to "control" situations, circumstances, or environments; fear of having to *think* (this one is HUGE around here!); fear that there is a finite amount of "truth" (and therefore that only one group can have the "truth" and be "right," and all others must be "wrong"); fear of losing power; even fear of literally going to Hell. Show me a group of so-called Christians who are acting contrary to the teachings of Christ in the Gospels, and I'll show you a group of scared people. Fear is a powerful motivator, but the results of using it as motivation are almost always, imo, unhealthy. For the record, all the above is strictly and solely IMVHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I don't expect any christian type persons to even care to understand me though. That, to me, is the worst part. If they truly believe what they claim to believe, Christians will be the *first* group of people who will sincerely care and desire to understand you. If... that is. Many of us do not live up to that ideal, I'm very sad to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Josh Savoy I've been to my father. I've said that. I've done everything I can, he doesn't want help. There is nothing I can do, and I resent him for it. That's the point of this whole thread... but you can't infer that can you?Why does it matter what I've done? You're making insulting assumptions that are completely off based. You don't know who I am. I'd appreciate it if you didn't project your rhetoric at me... you can't make a circle block fit in a square hole. Hey, look...you started a thread "what makes life worth living". The you changed it to "my dad's life sucks". The you also offered that YOU don't really have anything to live for, (only your interest in music has lept you from "the deed" I have remained on topic and offered you advice. Do you want a hug? You never answered my question if you have been mountina biling or not. You proclaim that only music has offered you solace without conmfirming what else in life you have tried. I present one simple question and you can't even answer ti without getting bent out of shape. Answering the question would clear up a lot. SO you don't like my replies to you? You don't like what I have to say? Dismiss it as bull{censored}? Fine. Continue on the path you've been on. It's worked so well for you, huh? Take care and hope you find the MYRIAD of things, places, thoughts and ideas that make this world worth living. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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