Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Hi all, I have been auditioning a few amps recently, and i have been browsing several threads in the TGP and other forums as well. I have seen the following 3 design ideas 1. PTP entirely no pcb2. PCB with chassis mounted pots/jacks/switchs/valves3. PCB with chassis mounted valves but pcb mounted pots/jacks4. PCB with EVERYthing mounted on the pcb (jacks/pots/switchs). Now, from a mechanical point of view, it seems that this small list is top to bottom, ie #1 is better than #2 etc etc. However 1 and 2 are the same qualitywise in my books. Looking a bit further into amps, i found out that the Orange RV50 that i loved testing last week is having everything mounted onto the pcb. In other words the cheapest possible solution. The Cornford MK50H that i also tested and disliked, was using the best build technique and the most expensive. In other words, in my book, construction philosophy doesnt mean better or worse tone. The BIG question is. Should i take into account build with respect to 1,2,3,4 that i listed? In other words should i just filter out all amps that belong to 3,4 and stick to 1,2? How much means this in real life situations? How much it affects serviceability and reliability? I know theoretically that 1>2>3>4, but what happens really? Engl is 4, Orange is 4, Marshall is 4, Laney is 3, Rivera is 3 or 2, Framus is 2, HK is 2, Boutiques are usually in 1, THD is in 2/3. Care to chime in and have a nice discussion that could possibly lead to a good reference guide for everyone? Yannis PS. I started asking myself this when i played with an Orange R30 with a faulty pot, and i wondered how difficult it would be for me to change the pot since it is mounted on the pcb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Songman68 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 When I buy an amp I plug in, play, listen and make my choice that way. I don't take the chasis out to see how it is soldered. If it sounds good then I buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maz_master Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by math2014 Hi all,I have been auditioning a few amps recently, and i have been browsing several threads in the TGP and other forums as well. I have seen the following 3 design ideas1. PTP entirely no pcb2. PCB with chassis mounted pots/jacks/switchs/valves3. PCB with chassis mounted valves but pcb mounted pots/jacks4. PCB with EVERYthing mounted on the pcb (jacks/pots/switchs).Now, from a mechanical point of view, it seems that this small list is top to bottom, ie #1 is better than #2 etc etc.However 1 and 2 are the same qualitywise in my books.Looking a bit further into amps, i found out that the Orange RV50 that i loved testing last week is having everything mounted onto the pcb. In other words the cheapest possible solution.The Cornford MK50H that i also tested and disliked, was using the best build technique and the most expensive.In other words, in my book, construction philosophy doesnt mean better or worse tone.The BIG question is. Should i take into account build with respect to 1,2,3,4 that i listed? In other words should i just filter out all amps that belong to 3,4 and stick to 1,2?How much means this in real life situations? How much it affects serviceability and reliability?I know theoretically that 1>2>3>4, but what happens really?Engl is 4, Orange is 4, Marshall is 4, Laney is 3, Rivera is 3 or 2, Framus is 2, HK is 2, Boutiques are usually in 1, THD is in 2/3.Care to chime in and have a nice discussion that could possibly lead to a good reference guide for everyone?YannisPS. I started asking myself this when i played with an Orange R30 with a faulty pot, and i wondered how difficult it would be for me to change the pot since it is mounted on the pcb. IMO, both tone and construction (i.e. reliability) are important, if you do any gigging whatsoever. There's nothing worse than an unpredictable amp when you're a performing musician! As an electrical engineer, I agree with your assessment of #1 and #2, but keep in mind that's it's possible to implement both of those approaches in a low quality manner and with low quality components. For example, an underrated resistor or transformer (worse yet!) will burn out and bum you out just as readily in a spotless PTP design as it will in a cheap PCB design! But, FWIW, in my 34 years of weekend warrior gigging, I've never had any serious problems with amps in the first two categories, but have had nightmares with those in the latter two! So, for many years now, I've only owned amps in the #1/#2 categories. With all that in mind, I'd first let your ears guide you in narrowing down the field, but if it comes down to two amps and one of them falls into category #1/#2 and one falls into category #3/#4, I'd pick the former, hands down, even if it costs substantially more. The added reliability is worth every penny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DannyM Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Mike Soldano said:"Point to Point vs Printed Circuit BoardsIn the early days before circuit boards were designed, technicians relied on various "anchor points" to connect wires together. Primitive layouts consisted of terminal strips screwed to the chassis or even pieces of cardboard fitted with brass eyelets. Components and wiring were then soldered, point to point , to these terminals or eyelets to create the circuit. As time went on, clever technicians figured they could etch the wiring patterns into copper foil laminated to a strong and rigid phenolic board. The components could then be soldered directly to these copper "traces". This was the beginnings of modern printed circuit (PC) boards. In today's boards, epoxy reinforced glass fiber replaces phenolic and more than one layer of copper is now possible. When using PC boards, precise parts placement and consistent wiring is guaranteed. I feel that point-to-point wiring is still very useful when designing an amplifier prototype or building a custom one-of-a-kind amp. It's quicker, easier, and cheaper to do than a one-off printed circuit board, and it's generally easier to make circuit modifications when using this method. Well done point to point wiring is also very nice to look at - if you've ever seen the inside an early Hiwatt, you'll know what I mean. In my opinion, however, it is far more cost effective and less labor intensive to use PC technology in a production environment. To you the consumer, this means a better amp for less money. I believe that an amp built with well designed circuit boards is easier to work with, is far more consistent and reliable, and more rugged mechanically than a point to point wired amp. Another advantage is that, since the circuitry is clearly mapped out on the board, PC boards are also quicker and easier to service. In closing this discussion, one should bear in mind that there is absolutely no sonic difference between point to point and printed circuit board wiring. Detractors of PC boards have argued that they are less reliable due to cracked solder joints or failure prone do to burned traces - neither of these complaints are even an issue with a properly designed board." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by DannyM Mike Soldano said:"Point to Point vs Printed Circuit BoardsIn the early days before circuit boards were designed, technicians relied on various "anchor points" to connect wires together. Primitive layouts consisted of terminal strips screwed to the chassis or even pieces of cardboard fitted with brass eyelets. Components and wiring were then soldered, point to point , to these terminals or eyelets to create the circuit. As time went on, clever technicians figured they could etch the wiring patterns into copper foil laminated to a strong and rigid phenolic board. The components could then be soldered directly to these copper "traces". This was the beginnings of modern printed circuit (PC) boards. In today's boards, epoxy reinforced glass fiber replaces phenolic and more than one layer of copper is now possible. When using PC boards, precise parts placement and consistent wiring is guaranteed.I feel that point-to-point wiring is still very useful when designing an amplifier prototype or building a custom one-of-a-kind amp. It's quicker, easier, and cheaper to do than a one-off printed circuit board, and it's generally easier to make circuit modifications when using this method. Well done point to point wiring is also very nice to look at - if you've ever seen the inside an early Hiwatt, you'll know what I mean.In my opinion, however, it is far more cost effective and less labor intensive to use PC technology in a production environment. To you the consumer, this means a better amp for less money. I believe that an amp built with well designed circuit boards is easier to work with, is far more consistent and reliable, and more rugged mechanically than a point to point wired amp. Another advantage is that, since the circuitry is clearly mapped out on the board, PC boards are also quicker and easier to service.In closing this discussion, one should bear in mind that there is absolutely no sonic difference between point to point and printed circuit board wiring. Detractors of PC boards have argued that they are less reliable due to cracked solder joints or failure prone do to burned traces - neither of these complaints are even an issue with a properly designed board." I am with you. My major concern is NOT ptp-vs-pcb. My main concern is chassis mounted pots/jacks/valves vs pcb mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DannyM Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 This is a good read: http://www.soldano.com/about.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by DannyM This is a good read: http://www.soldano.com/about.htm good read indeed The Soldano HotRod 50, has pcb mounted jacks/pots/valves or chassis mounted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RupertB Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 If your amp sits in a bedroom or basement, not that much. If you take it out to practices & gigs regularly, it matters a lot IMO. Its my strong preference to NOT have mechanical (pots, switches, jacks) or heat producing (valves) components mounted to a PCB. Even with a substantial PCB, I think its asking for trouble in the long-term. Good & bad amps have built with PCBs, same with PTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by math2014 good read indeedThe Soldano HotRod 50, has pcb mounted jacks/pots/valves or chassis mounted? Just the powertubes are chassis-mounted. The rest isn't . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Duesentrieb Just the powertubes are chassis-mounted. The rest isn't . . . good to know, so same level as an Orange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Duesentrieb hmm tidy! I wonder if its worth 1900$ and i also wonder how can you change or clean a pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DannyM Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 SLO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by DannyM SLO I just wish more amps were made like this.... :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by math2014 hmm tidy!I wonder if its worth 1900$ and i also wonder how can you change or clean a pot. Unscrew all pots and gently push out the whole board. As long as the leads to the board are long enough, no problem . . . Seriously I'm more worried about parts quality in general . . . Soldanos in general handle a lot, other manufacturers have bigger problems (just think of the 900s Marshall series) or those, who manufacture with "cascading PCBs". I wouldn't like to repair those amps . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperStrat Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 imo imo imo imo imo...... A well-designed circuit built with first quality components that work well together, is the most important thing. I don't feel it makes one bit of difference if the design uses PCB's as long as they are high quality with strong traces. Actually, you can make an argument that PCB might have an advantage because they are less subject to irregularities during assembly. I may get trounced, but this is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members math2014 Posted March 28, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by Duesentrieb Unscrew all pots and gently push out the whole board. As long as the leads to the board are long enough, no problem . . .Seriously I'm more worried about parts quality in general . . . Soldanos in general handle a lot, other manufacturers have bigger problems (just think of the 900s Marshall series) or those, who manufacture with "cascading PCBs". I wouldn't like to repair those amps . . . Cascading? Like the TSL? multi-storey PCBs? So basically you unscrew the pots and then you unscrew the chassis from the pcb and lift the pcb/unmount pots? It makes me wonder... WHICH amps are made like the SLO... Superstrat... as i said earlier, i dont care if it is PCB or PTP, i just care to know how can i judge a well made amp. Lack of IC chips?Good trannies?Chassis mounted pots/jacks/valves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Plastic sockets in an amp . . . . . . failure of the whole amp, which was dumped . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by math2014 Cascading? Like the TSL? multi-storey PCBs?So basically you unscrew the pots and then you unscrew the chassis from the pcb and lift the pcb/unmount pots?It makes me wonder... WHICH amps are made like the SLO... Yup, like the TSL, 6100, Engls, . . . Made like the SLO are still a lot - The VH4 has pots and sockets chassis mounted f.i. with a PCB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hal9000 Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Here's a gut shot of an F-100 (my main gigging amp) which is a good example of Mesa's construction technique. Build qualty was very important to me being an engineer and gigging musician and Mesa has quality contruction. I also really like the build quality on my Rivera R55-12 and VHT 50CL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maz_master Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by DannyM SLO An excellent example of indestructible PCB design. But, THD does the same thing for a helluva' lot less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maz_master Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by hal9000 Here's a gut shot of an F-100 (my main gigging amp) which is a good example of Mesa's construction technique. Build qualty was very important to me being an engineer and gigging musician and Mesa has quality contruction. I also really like the build quality on my Rivera R55-12 and VHT 50CL. Not bad, except the tubes are PCB-mounted, which isn't a good thing. I don't think the earlier generation Mesas used PCB-mounted tubes. I think Randall's starting to cut corners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratotone Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by maz_master Not bad, except the tubes are PCB-mounted, which isn't a good thing. I don't think the earlier generation Mesas used PCB-mounted tubes. I think Randall's starting to cut corners... My late 80s mesa EL84 .50 (both of them) had PCB mounted tubes. I think it's a bad idea because of the heat from the tubes, especially when the tubes hang upside down like the caliber series and all the heat goes UP into the board. I don't think it's as much an issue with a marshall style chassis where the heat from the tubes goes up and away from the board, but I prefer chassis mounted tube sockets and pots by far. Much easier to repair. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DannyM Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 Originally posted by maz_master An excellent example of indestructible PCB design. But, THD does the same thing for a helluva' lot less! From what I've read, THD isnt in the same league as a Soldano SLO as far as tone goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mikeo Posted March 28, 2006 Members Share Posted March 28, 2006 I want folks to take note of the section of the amp I highlighted, note that the pots are mounted to the pc board, if you need top replace one, it's kind of a pain in the butt to do. But the chances are you will not need to replace one, and if you do the warranty will be way expired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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