How often to you REALLY use AFTER TOUCH?

[Plink Floyd]

Since we have to be all Piano Theory Serious, we will use the Latin abbreviation for aftertouch. Anyone know what that is?

"Tuckus Pocus".

[MuzikB]

Wow. 3 more before I'm off.

[MuzikB]

Which means that the composer is free to make a symbol up and ascribe such things to said symbol. Instructing the composer on non-standard techniques is fairly common in 20th century classical music, at least with the modern stuff. Much of the weird bowing you have to do in some of the modern stuff, I don't think, is related to "violin technique and music theory" either, but hey. Christ, all you need to do really is figure out a good abbreviation for aftertouch, place it in your composition with standard crescendo / diminuendo symbols, and note it in the footnotes. Since we have to be all Piano Theory Serious, we will use the Latin abbreviation for aftertouch. Anyone know what that is?

 

Oh, they are going to love this one.

[MuzikB]

Sorry, but it's not possible to evaluate the necessity of aftertouch based on piano technique simply because piano doesn't have aftertouch. It's like saying "based on medieval medicine, antibiotics are not necessary". To say anything about aftertouch, you have to play and use techniques for instrument that has it, which is not piano.

 

Somehow, medieval medicine hasn't lasted nearly as long as music theory or piano technique. Maybe because it doesn't work. There is a reason the Theory and Piano Tech. have stood the test of time.

 

Terrible analogy. And there's no way I would consider use of a switch in comparison to antibiotics.

[Citizen Klaus]

Oh, they are going to love this one.

 

Think you could maybe dial down the self-righteousness, just a little bit? We really don't need to hear every last new development in your plans to give a presentation to your classmates about how stupid we all are.

[carbon111]

Asking a synthesist to ignore AT is like asking a violinist to play without vibrato.

I gave good reasons for why AT makes sense for many patches in my post above and even provided an example but I see it was conveniently ignored. :/

Also, I'd like to know why anyone thinks piano technique has anything to do with synthesis, its like comparing an apple with a hedgehog. My most powerful synthesizer doesn't even come with a conventional keyboard but a combination touchplate/sequencer that does implement a form of AT.

...I suppose what I make with the Serge isn't "real music" anyway?



BTW - I absolutely love my piano but it's no synthesizer - and I don't play it like one either.
Treating it like one because part of its UI is similar is both limiting and stupid for the instrument and the performer.

[strngweaver]

 

Since we have to be all Piano Theory Serious, we will use the Latin abbreviation for aftertouch. Anyone know what that is?

 

 

That would be "secundum tactus" if anyone wondered. Or "sect" for short ;-)

[Chando]

Sounds like someone's Music Theory class hasn't gotten to the chapter on dynamics.

I guess legato is also pointless since it doesn't exist on a piano.


Thank god I was in orchestra and didn't take piano (my brother hated it .. so my parents skimped me on piano lessons).

[TropicThink]

All guitars are based on the berimbau (quite obvious, since the berimbau is, like, really old and stuff and is a string instrument). Therefore, there is no need to plug your Stratocaster into anything, because cables and electricity and all that stuff is obviously unneeded - they didn't have electricity when they came up with the idea for the berimbau. They only had an empty coconut and some other stuff. String instruments are acoustic instruments. They are all based on the berimbau. They do not need cables.

BTW, I have taken some history classes, which obviously makes any argument against my thesis here both extremely funny and hilariously wrong. My classmates will laugh at you, very loudly and for quite a long time.

Thank you.

[carbon111]

My computer looks a little like a typewriter - I guess it's only good for typing letters to my aunt.

[Megakazbek]

Somehow, medieval medicine hasn't lasted nearly as long as music theory or piano technique. Maybe because it doesn't work. There is a reason the Theory and Piano Tech. have stood the test of time. Terrible analogy. And there's no way I would consider use of a switch in comparison to antibiotics.

Okay, the analogy is maybe not perfect, but the point still remains: how do you evaluate the usefulness of aftertouch using an instrument that doesn't have it?

[AnotherScott]

My computer looks a little like a typewriter - I guess it's only good for typing letters to my aunt.

Quite right. Your wifi/ethernet connection is not necessary, according to Writing Theory and Typing Technique. My English teacher told me that the internet is superfluous because, as everyone knows, computers are based on typewriters. Except the hand-held touchscreen ones, which are based on those little puzzles where you have to move the numbered squares around to get them in the right order.

[AnotherScott]

Okay, now I'm totally confused. I just got to math class, and the teacher told me that computers are based on calculators. So all the keys except the number keys are not necessary. Except I might need X once I get to algebra.

[soundwave106]

Think you could maybe dial down the self-righteousness, just a little bit? We really don't need to hear every last new development in your plans to give a presentation to your classmates about how stupid we all are.

 

Heh. I'm not sure what I said was stupid?

 

Aftertouch is not "necessary", in a sense. A trumpet mute isn't necessary to play trumpet, either, but it adds a color that some composers may desire (and have asked to be put in pieces).

 

Aftertouch usually has nothing to do with notes, chords, or harmonic relationships, but it absolutely has something to do with color and texture (adding vibrato or presence is the typical AT role). Color and texture and the notation thereof is a part of music theory. Aftertouch becomes a part of music theory the instant that a composer requests an aftertouch effect in their composition, in other words. That's the way it will work. For all I know, there already is some sheet music out there with aftertouch required.

 

It would be silly to argue that notational standards should triumph over technological improvements. To be honest I am not sure if this is the real argument is or not (this thread has devolved into a game of silly buggers). And I'm not sure how far back the person's wanting to stretch his analogy (timpani glissandos? Bah, pedal tuned timpanis didn't exist until the early 20th century!) But, really, I mention the modern stuff for a reason. All these arguments seem to fall apart in the face of, say, an Edgard Varese score. Even John Cage's prepared piano scores fall out of the norm of convention; we're talking weirder {censored} then simply routing aftertouch to the cutoff.

[Citizen Klaus]

Heh. I'm not sure what I said was stupid?

 

Nothing. I was responding specifically to MusikB's general tone of condescension, collecting quotes so he can tell his school-mates about how none of us understand the mystical connection between Music Theory, Piano Technique, and aftertouch.

 

I just happened to select a quote from him in response to your post; I could've picked any other. It had no bearing on your original comment.

[synthjoe]

I was too busy responding to my classmates on yahoo messenger. Getting a lot of "Wow! Just Wow!"

MuzikB, I think you really should read Klaus' post. It is probably much more educational than what you get in your music theory classes - at least when I see your interpretation of it.

There's nothing wrong with being in college for music, many of us have been there, done it. There's nothing wrong with your professor pulling up a system to make the point for the subject he/she's on. Interpreting this as the only truth of life, however, is very narrow minded and taking things out of context. Think of all the years ahead of you until completing your education. There's a fair chance for you to find out for yourself that not everything's true you have heard in class.

I, for a classically trained pianist, don't miss AT on my piano, but as a classically trained trombonist (yes, have done two diplomas in parallel, some 20 years ago) I sure miss expressive tools like crescendo on a sustained note (impossible on piano - but exists in music theory since a very long time), or varying level of delayed vibrato or trill. I could go on and on for a long time about things that AT is very useful for on a synth. Instead, I suggest you to take even more music theory, music history, acoustics and other classes before dissing anybody else and knowing the truth for sure. Indeed, music was first and then came theory, but in arts it is always tricky to get theory to fit all - I'm sure this will be in your books towards the end of your studies.

BTW: wouldn't it be 'post tactus' rather than 'secundum tactus'?

[synthjoe]

Okay, the analogy is maybe not perfect, but the point still remains: how do you evaluate the usefulness of aftertouch using an instrument that doesn't have it?

The analogy might not be good for someone ignorant of alternative medicine, but it does not prevent modern medicine to be based upon...

[Thorhead]

 

Nothing. I was responding specifically to MusikB's general tone of condescension, collecting quotes so he can tell his school-mates about how none of us understand the mystical connection between Music Theory, Piano Technique, and aftertouch. I just happened to select a quote from him in response to your post; I could've picked any other. It had no bearing on your original comment.

 

 

He does sound pretty snobby to me too. Academic? - Just had to make this quite SUBJECTIVE topic about his academic knowledge... And yes this is completely subjecetive, for some it is necessary, for some it's not - the reason for it being necessary couldn't have less to do with this guy's knowledge of piano technique the objective "holy grail of truth", nor the "fact" that synth tutorials don't cover it.

 

But saying aftertouch is less expressive than ribbon or wheels is academically WRONG. They both transmit data from 0-127 and thus both of them are as expressive - in fact from the instrument's perspective they are the same thing.

 

Of course AT maybe harder to use - but that doesn't make it less expressive. And in fact Poly AT would be way easier to use than 127 wheels required to transmit the same amount of (maximum) data.

 

 

And no composition paper should ever request AT, what they should request is modulation, that could be gotten with AT, wheel, ribbon, expression pedal, knob, XY pad, or WTF ever.

[AnotherScott]

 

And no composition paper should ever request AT, what they should request is modulation, that could be gotten with AT, wheel, ribbon, expression pedal, knob, XY pad, or WTF ever.

 

 

I agree... the composer should specify the musical effect s/he is looking for, and not dictate the technique they player uses to achieve it. Though there are cases where, at least on a given instrument, aftertouch may be the only way to obtain a particular effect (i.e. if other controls need to be assigned to other functions, other hand needs to play something else at the same time, etc.).

[synthjoe]

But saying aftertouch is less expressive than ribbon or wheels is academically WRONG. They both transmit data from 0-127 and thus both of them are as expressive - in fact from the instrument's perspective they are the same thing.

 

Precisely. I was going to make that comment, too, but I forgot the earlier post. As good a controller as any other. The fact that some manufacturers had a poorer implementation does not make it useless for the ones that have gotten it right. Most of them can be adjusted via trimmer pots inside the synth. Someone making a statement that it is less expressive than others has clearly never tried to get it right and/or lacks the knowledge of the technology behind.

 

+1 on the artist's liberty as to the technique (within a certain limit, of course - arco/secco and the like)

[psionic11]

Excellent points! If we were to digress for a moment and suppose that a "classical" composer would write general score directions for a synthesist, then it would be more appropriate to rely on classical indications like crescendo, vibrato, and sforzando. It would be short-sighted to indicate to the performing synthesist to direct him to use the MOD wheel vs pitchbend vs a breath controller or via aftertouch.

But, given the general consensus with the objection to MuzikB's posts, granting he's a college-educator and a producer of probably very fine music, I'm inclined to think that he's intentionally provoking opposing opinions in order to get spirited responses to parade to his music students. Kudos.

Don't be fooled, however, by the sleight-of-hand here. At least twice already he's dismissed posts whole-heartedly with a simple "this post is entirely wrong I can't even begin to refute it" over-arching statement. And yet failed to refute several specific points to counter his. Logical fallacies aside, remember that music is first and foremost an expression of personal as well as traditional sentiments. For many of us more serious and enabled performers, aftertouch is that vehicle which conveys much more authentic immediacy that begins to rival the myriad expressions capable to acoustic instruments.

To quote: "artist's liberty as to the technique"

[Citizen Klaus]

 

But, given the general consensus with the objection to MuzikB's posts, granting he's a college-educator and a producer of probably very fine music, I'm inclined to think that he's intentionally provoking opposing opinions in order to get spirited responses to parade to his music students. Kudos.

 

 

He's not a college educator; he's a college student. And a first-year undergrad, from the sound of things. I'll grant that there's some provocation going on, but I strongly doubt that it's in the spirit of intellectually-honest academic inquiry.

[nice keetee]

Aftertouch occasionally. Press down on preset and see if it does anything to the sound.

[Chando]

from the sound of things. I'll grant that there's some projecting going on

 

 

There I fixed that for ya..

 

It seems that he is just justifying his own ignorance ... just like most under-grads/19 year olds do.. we all have.

This is all just a pure miscommunication. I once again blame the piano keys for being the most logical interface.

 

Piano technique doesn't require aftertouch because aftertouch has absolutely NOTHING to do with the piano. IMO piano has nothing do to with the synthesizers* either.. but once again that's just my opinion.

 

* synthesizers according to Chando = saw, squ, tri, pulse, VCF, env, LFO, autobend, etc

[psionic11]

Aftertouch occasionally. Press down on preset and see if it does anything to the sound.

 

 

Nice counterpoint to the main thrust of the thread. Glad to hear some experimentation going on. Dynamics and vibrato hold much in your future, young Jedi.