Members tlbonehead Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes similar concept, entirely different application. why pretend you understand things you clearly don't? do you really not understand the difference between these guitar subs and a PA or hi-fi sub system? i'm certain you haven't the foggiest idea what frequencies the guitar-specific subs even work in - but you act like plugging your crap into some gear and fumbling around with the controls a little makes you an expert on things you've never so much as touched. on top of that, you act like anyone who doubts your ridiculous conclusions is misguided. like i said, you might be able to learn something if you want to, but if you'd rather stick to your usual little retarded clowndance instead, more power to you. go plug your guitar into a garbage disposal, then come back and say leslies are useless in a band situation. i mean, they both spin, right? same concept! must be analogous! I love Leslies on guitar. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean I need to join you. I built a sub cab for a down-tuner recently, which replaced his Riv Los-Lobottom. He luvs it. To my ears, it is clearer, much, louder and far more adjustable. In a band setting, I still find it to be a PITA. There is no magic powder in the guitar-specific sub cabs. You just have to tune the box and choose the drivers with the guitar frequencies in mind. There is no magic powder in the guitar-specific sub cabs. If you choose the correct drivers and tunings and have the proper electronics on board, you can do the same thing, and have the freedom to do other things with it. So, carry on with your one-dimensional rants if you'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead I love Leslies on guitar. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean I need to join you. I built a sub cab for a down-tuner recently, which replaced his Riv Los-Lobottom. He luvs it. To my ears, it is clearer, much, louder and far more adjustable. In a band setting, I still find it to be a PITA. There is no magic powder in the guitar-specific sub cabs. You just have to tune the box and choose the drivers with the guitar frequencies in mind. There is no magic powder in the guitar-specific sub cabs. If you choose the correct drivers and tunings and have the proper electronics on board, you can do the same thing, and have the freedom to do other things with it. So, carry on with your one-dimensional rants if you'd like. got it. you successfully built a piece of shoddy equipment that sucks for use in a band. bravo! that certainly demonstrates your level of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by starsnuffer Great for bedroom and basement wanking. . .. absolutely useless live.How the hell do you mic a sub? You have a $1500 piece of gear up on stage that exists solely for your personal peen.Your PA has subs and x-overs, that's what it's for.-W In a nutshell you've never tried one so you don't know what the {censored} you're talking about... I've played out alot with mine.......soundmen.......yes soundmen really dug it and it was a non-issue miking it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by Bluesaholick Dont waste your money on something that will drown everything else out of the mix. Another person who doesn't know {censored} about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead Its the same concept, sunshine. With a crossover and EQ you can set them up to emulate a guitar specific sub cab. Why make this stuff out to be more than it is? What's powering the "subs" you've emulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bluesaholick Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by shred-o-holic Another person who doesn't know {censored} about it... Uh oh. The bedroom rocker is pissed off. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by Bluesaholick Uh oh. The bedroom rocker is pissed off. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: LOL wtf are you talking about? I just spent two years in a gigging band....and before that after a hiatus 15 years of live shows prior...you assume alot like you even know me there dumbass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bluesaholick Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Wow two years in a gigging band? I dont think playing for your aunts wedding puts you in the "Gigging band" status, kiddo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by Bluesaholick Wow two years in a gigging band? I dont think playing for your aunts wedding puts you in the "Gigging band" status, kiddo. Two years plus 15.......apparently your age has hindered your reading ability there Grandpa.....keep on assuming things about me and equipment that you've never tried..... Your cough medicine just called.......it says it's going through with the restraining order..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dpm Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 I don't really know the background here, so I'm not saying anything directly to anyone. I will, however, establish what I feel a sub should be achieving in this application. First up, we're talking about very low tuned guitars. Down to B at least. The 8 strings have their thickest string tuned to an F# (1 whole tone above a bass guitar's E string), on about a 30" scale. Guitar speakers are generally not designed to produce frequencies this low, so we use a sub to extend the frequency response downwards. What this should achieve is more clarity, not necessarily more bass. The guitar should then be easier to mix, and the bass player more audible and defined because he/she isn't getting drowned in {censored}. That's if there is a bass player. To retain the 'guitar' characteristic I feel it's important to have a guitar cab covering the mids and highs. When you remove the really low material from that cab to the sub you find a big increase in clarity and smoothness in the higher frequency range. The speakers are no longer trying to cope with frequencies they're incapable of producing. If a person doesn't tune that low, and doesn't appreciate the music being played, I wouldn't expect them to understand wtf this is all about. It's a different thing, and their ears won't know what they're listening for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by dpm I don't really know the background here, so I'm not saying anything directly to anyone. I will, however, establish what I feel a sub should be achieving in this application. First up, we're talking about very low tuned guitars. Down to B at least. The 8 strings have their thickest string tuned to an F# (1 whole tone above a bass guitar's E string), on about a 30" scale. Guitar speakers are generally not designed to produce frequencies this low, so we use a sub to extend the frequency response downwards. What this should achieve is more clarity, not necessarily more bass. The guitar should then be easier to mix, and the bass player more audible and defined because he/she isn't getting drowned in {censored}. That's if there is a bass player.To retain the 'guitar' characteristic I feel it's important to have a guitar cab covering the mids and highs. When you remove the really low material from that cab to the sub you find a big increase in clarity and smoothness in the higher frequency range. The speakers are no longer trying to cope with frequencies they're incapable of producing.If a person doesn't tune that low, and doesn't appreciate the music being played, I wouldn't expect them to understand wtf this is all about. It's a different thing, and their ears won't know what they're listening for. What you're saying is true and yes the sub does it......but even so.....it's not just for detuners.....Steve Lukathier is the one who is behind both ISP and Rivera designs and last time I checked he is not a detuner......just an awesome player, studio musician, etc.....so yeah it's freaking ideal for downtuners ( I am one myself FWIW).....but the thing is it just makes everything sound more full, more clear, bigger and better to just about everyone who has tried it. I have to say the opinion on this thing has gotten better recently as I am at least running into more people on the net who have tried. I was just as skeptical as many who also were that were convinced upon simply playing and hearing the gear......but I fully expect just like in this thread for the skepticism and negatism to wretch on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dpm Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Good point about Lukather. I was thinking from the metal 8 string perspective.I can think of a parallel to this in the multiscale (f*anned fret) realm. On a standard tuned 6 string there is a subjective improvement to a multiscale fretboard, but it's by no means a necessity. As you add strings, and thus range, the multiscale advantages become more of a need than a luxury. Again, it's a subjective thing, but certainly the argument becomes significantly stronger.It's the same thing with subs for electric guitar. Some people will find they prefer to have a sub in standard tuning, and can justify the added cost, bulk, and complexity. As the tuning gets lower the justification becomes stronger.Incidentally, subs kick ass for jazz too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 These subs are basically toys for your home. Will it sound cool cranked up and shake your floor? Yes it will. Theres no need for guitar at those frequencies in a live show with band, or recording . You just get mud overlapping a kick drum or bass guitar. No need for guitars at 50 hz. Cool toys--thats about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dpm Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 With a low F# tuning the instrument is throwing out sound in the 50-60Hz range. It's there, and the amp is trying to pump it into the speakers. The sub stops the mud. Overall I had less bass in my sound when using the sub compared to simply using just a 4x12 because the superior definition made it sound bigger. The sub deals with frequenies right up to the hundreds of Hz, which is certainly relevant to any guitar sound. Once again, when those lower frequencies are removed from a typical 12" guitar speaker the highs and mids benifit in a big way. If you want to think about it in a mixing/recording scenario think of it as adding a sub to a monitor system. The low end is clearer, and there's no longer any desire to (wrongly) try to compensate by cranking the bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by 496dart These subs are basically toys for your home. Will it sound cool cranked up and shake your floor? Yes it will. Theres no need for guitar at those frequencies in a live show with band, or recording . You just get mud overlapping a kick drum or bass guitar. No need for guitars at 50 hz. Cool toys--thats about it. You speak on experience using them? It will never end..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 yes- again, no need for that low of freq. for guitar. Doesnt matter on the tuning. Tune your guitar down to C or F#. The engineer will roll out the mud to create room for the bass guitar and kick drum. Its all about how frequencies mesh. again--a sub is a toy if used for guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dpm Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Interesting then that you'll find that a well executed metal mix with low tuned guitars tends to focus the bass guitar and kick drum to the mids. Lots of click in those kicks To reiterate, again, the sub has the effect of freeing up the mids. In my opinion, as someone who used a sub for a number of years, the best thing about the sub is what it does to the mids, not the lows.It's OK to say you personally see no benefit to using a sub for your own purposes. That's cool. I assume you also have no use for an 8 string guitar? Also cool. But making assumptions about the gear used by people who are working to achieve something totally different to what you're familiar with is, well......Look, me, I own one 6 string guitar, and it's a fretless. I'm yet to get around to making myself a 7 or 8 string fretless so that will have to do. I've got 7 strings, an 8 string, a fretless 11 string that used to be a 12 string Yamaha Pacifica. I have no use for a fretted 6, so I don't have one. I'm willing to bet I have no idea how to get the sound in your head out of an amp, so I'm not going to offer an opinion on the subject. Cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shahar Adom Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by shred-o-holic You speak on experience using them? It will never end..... yep it never endsweird huh?It's been like this since I first got my subs in 2001. THe only way to explain it is "group think" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by shred-o-holic What's powering the "subs" you've emulated? It is a sub. Ummm, a power amp powers them. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by dpm I don't really know the background here, so I'm not saying anything directly to anyone. I will, however, establish what I feel a sub should be achieving in this application. First up, we're talking about very low tuned guitars. Down to B at least. The 8 strings have their thickest string tuned to an F# (1 whole tone above a bass guitar's E string), on about a 30" scale. Guitar speakers are generally not designed to produce frequencies this low, so we use a sub to extend the frequency response downwards. What this should achieve is more clarity, not necessarily more bass. The guitar should then be easier to mix, and the bass player more audible and defined because he/she isn't getting drowned in {censored}. That's if there is a bass player.To retain the 'guitar' characteristic I feel it's important to have a guitar cab covering the mids and highs. When you remove the really low material from that cab to the sub you find a big increase in clarity and smoothness in the higher frequency range. The speakers are no longer trying to cope with frequencies they're incapable of producing.If a person doesn't tune that low, and doesn't appreciate the music being played, I wouldn't expect them to understand wtf this is all about. It's a different thing, and their ears won't know what they're listening for. Your post doesn't addres overtones, just fundamental frequencies on the low end. Many times, even with bass guitar, the mix will clean up if you back off on a little of the fundamental lowend frequencies and let the overtones shape the sound of the lower notes a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members progguitar Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 YOu might look around for an old musicman cab that had two 10's and bass reflex. I used one years ago with my Marshall combo, and it worked extremely well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by progguitar YOu might look around for an old musicman cab that had two 10's and bass reflex.I used one years ago with my Marshall combo, and it worked extremely well They also made a single 15" in the same horn loaded port enclosure. And they are really light due to the pine construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members progguitar Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead They also made a single 15" in the same horn loaded port enclosure. And they are really light due to the pine construction. Nice cabs. Used to be you could get them for about a $100. They've become harder to find lately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members petejt Posted December 10, 2006 Members Share Posted December 10, 2006 Originally posted by 7 Stringer God damn it people, he wants an opinion on the guitar powered sub systems, not 1 000 000 other ideas:rolleyes: I own an ISP system and let me tell you, it sounds massive. It doesn`t give you more bass to drown everything out, it just give the low freq. a 3-D like effect. The whole room seems filled with tone. It`s deeper and hit`s you in the chest. Especially on the 7`th string;) Here`s a pic of my setup: Drop Derek B a line and he`ll hook you up with awesome service, and a dman fine price to boot:thu: Chris that's crazy....how do you manage to play all those big massive amps (and LOTS of 'em) & cabinets in your room? :confused: I turn my crappy 60watt solid-state digital modeling amp up to barely 1/4 volume, and it's too loud for the whole house!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shred-o-holic Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead It is a sub. Ummm, a power amp powers them. What do you think? It appeared from your post that you were using one power source to power the same signal......irregardless.....saying you can emulate an ISP or Rivera sub by the way you're describing is like saying you can emulate a Bogner Uberschall with a Vox AC 30...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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