Members agedhorse Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 The design goal for high power speakers is for the power handling to increase faster than the efiiciency decreases. Above 400 watts (RMS) this is a LOT harder than it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by agedhorse The design goal for high power speakers is for the power handling to increase faster than the efiiciency decreases. Above 400 watts (RMS) this is a LOT harder than it seems. Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cap'n Ahole Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF Then why did you bring up a 3" speaker earlier? I liked that exageration! And tell me about the louder 10's? I can see if you were you just talking about the quieter 15's vs. loudest 10's & not averages... Originally posted by GCDEF You could easily have a 10" speaker that would be louder than a 15". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockon1000 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead Well, if it is intended to be funny(see how much crap we can make up) I guess that's cool. But there are some people still actually coming here for information. Doesn't seem fair that they get fed all this totally outta whack stuff. It would be nice to give the truth in cases where they are depending on the info here. You arrogantly assume you are correct. Doesn't seem fair any one should have your point of view(which may be incorrect) "shoved down their throat" either. I concede at least I may be wrong. Who then is more on the side of truth and dissemination of accurate information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 11, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by Vanny If there are two amps with the same chassis and same wattage (say 60 watts), but one has a 1x12 and the other has a 2x12, which will be 'louder'? Not enough information here to give a reasonable answer. 1. Is the total impedance load the same? In other words, if the original 1x12 is an 8-ohm cab, have you added another 8-ohm 12" in parallel, presenting a 4-ohm load, or in series, presenting 16 ohms? 2. Depending upon what the answer to #1 is, does the amp provide similar or different power to a different impedance load? In other words, a tube amp with output transformer will typically provide the same power via output matching taps, while a solid state power section will provide increased power to a lower impedance load. 3. Is the additional speaker in the same cabinet, mounted on the same baffle board, in a separate cabinet but positioned next to and close to the original speaker, or in a separate cabinet positioned away from the original speaker? All things being equal (which is a rare condition) two identical speakers providing the same load and efficiency (again, a very difficult-to-reproduce condition) as one speaker, if mounted in the same baffle close to one another, will generally increase sound output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by rockon1000 You arrogantly assume you are correct. Doesn't seem fair any one should have your point of view(which may be incorrect) "shoved down their throat" either. I concede at least I may be wrong. Who then is more on the side of truth and dissemination of accurate information? He's not assuming he's correct, he knows he's correct. This is physics, not an editorial. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. He is right. You are wrong. It's not debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockon1000 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF He's not assuming he's correct, he knows he's correct. This is physics, not an editorial. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. He is right. You are wrong. It's not debatable. I dont respect your opinion enough to to be swayed by this silliness ! More arrogance -no proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by rockon1000 I dont respect your opinion enough to to be swayed by this silliness ! More arrogance -no proof. Whatever. You've had a number of knowledgeable people come here and tell you speakers don't add volume. Without adding more energy, how could they? It's basic common sense and basic physics. You can learn, or remain ignorant. Makes no difference to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF Whatever. You've had a number of knowledgeable people come here and tell you speakers don't add volume. Without adding more energy, how could they? It's basic common sense and basic physics. You can learn, or remain ignorant. Makes no difference to me. I think we need to go with Dboomer's (the Peavey tech) advice on this one from Live Sound."Never try to teach a pig how to sing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead I think we need to go with Dboomer's (the Peavey tech) advice on this one from Live Sound."Never try to teach a pig how to sing" I believe you're right. I don't know why this is so hard to understand though. Power comes from the amp, not the speakers. Seems pretty basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spoonie g Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by agedhorse Sure are a lot of partial understandings (and mis-understandings) going around;) Here's some information to digest...5. Placing one speaker on top of another can cause a reflection off of a floor surface that can cancel with the lower speaker. This can cause the same rises and falls of response as in #4 above.It is because of #4 that our G-Flex was developed, the flexed baffle improves the summation of drivers by minimizing the effects of comb filtering.Hope this helps. Does this mean that a 2x12 is more desirable than a 4x12 in a live situation? Also, what about those Polk loudspeakers that use like 6 bass drivers on top pf each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF He's not assuming he's correct, he knows he's correct. This is physics, not an editorial. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. He is right. You are wrong. It's not debatable. you guys are both ignoring the fact that speaker efficiency does not have a linear relationship with power applied. x watts through one speaker experiences more thermal loss than x watts through two of the same speakers (keeping other variables the same, and impedances matched, etc.). of course total energy doesn't change, but what that energy is converted into does change. the only thing that's not debatable is that you're oversimplifying things and ignoring critical variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes you guys are both ignoring the fact that speaker efficiency does not have a linear relationship with power applied. x watts through one speaker experiences more thermal loss than x watts through two of the same speakers (keeping other variables the same, and impedances matched, etc.). of course total energy doesn't change, but what that energy is converted into does change. the only thing that's not debatable is that you're oversimplifying things and ignoring critical variables. True and I don't feel like typing a thesis on it. At its simplest though, with speakers operating well within their tolerances, simply adding a speaker won't add any volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes you guys are both ignoring the fact that speaker efficiency does not have a linear relationship with power applied. x watts through one speaker experiences more thermal loss than x watts through two of the same speakers (keeping other variables the same, and impedances matched, etc.). of course total energy doesn't change, but what that energy is converted into does change. the only thing that's not debatable is that you're oversimplifying things and ignoring critical variables. Nope we weren't ignoring that at all. I know I left room for variables such as coupling, power compression near the speaker's limits, etc. And of course, a cab that has more natural bass response will free up additional power/headroom if you can suddenly set your bass control at a lower setting while still having the same or bass bass response as the other cab. We are just addressing the outlandish claims being thrown out here. 1 watt suddenly becomes 2 watts when you add a second speaker, a 4x12 cab is 12 db louder than a 1x12 cab, Larger speakers are always more efficient than smaller speakers, unless it is a 15" or larger. Then a 12" is always more efficient. And a 10" can't be more efficient than a 12". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 11, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by rockon1000 If I put 4 watts into a 1x12 its not going to be much louder than its rated 1 watt/1 meter rating. However a 4x12 is going to be almost 9 db louder than a 1x12 at say the same 4 watts output. 9 db is very substantial percieved increase in volume. Can you quote any legitimate source backing this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cap'n Ahole Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Thank god for your science! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by spoonie g Does this mean that a 2x12 is more desirable than a 4x12 in a live situation? Also, what about those Polk loudspeakers that use like 6 bass drivers on top pf each other? Maybe and maybe not. It's a trade-off between what problems are created versus what benefits are created. Such is life it seems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockon1000 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes you guys are both ignoring the fact that speaker efficiency does not have a linear relationship with power applied. x watts through one speaker experiences more thermal loss than x watts through two of the same speakers (keeping other variables the same, and impedances matched, etc.). of course total energy doesn't change, but what that energy is converted into does change. the only thing that's not debatable is that you're oversimplifying things and ignoring critical variables. Yes Im sure there is more to it than thier simple " This is physics, not an editorial. There is a right answer and a wrong answer. He is right. You are wrong. It's not debatable." diatribe Im being subjected to. I may be wrong ,yet , I dont think so or at loeast I havent been convinced that I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spoonie g Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by agedhorse Maybe and maybe not. It's a trade-off between what problems are created versus what benefits are created. Such is life it seems! So..... problems: cancellation benefits: more bass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by spoonie g So.....problems: cancellationbenefits: more bass? Depends on what's cancelling each other out. If it was the mid-high frequencies cancelling out the tone would be bassier, but you wouldn't actually have more bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockon1000 Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Heres something from an amp manufacturer. To design these types of cabinets, start with the number of drivers. Most open backed cabinets contain 1, 2 or 4 speakers, but choose any number that meets your needs. Remember that twice the number of drivers doesn't necessarily equate to twice the sound output, due to acoustic coupling and standing wave cancellation in the room. However, more speakers is definitely louder due to the increase in cone surface area. http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/speaker_cab.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spoonie g Posted December 11, 2006 Members Share Posted December 11, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead Depends on what's cancelling each other out. If it was the mid-high frequencies cancelling out the tone would be bassier, but you wouldn't actually have more bass. no, i meant the benefit of a 4x12 would be that it would have more bass due to more cabinet volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by spoonie g no, i meant the benefit of a 4x12 would be that it would have more bass due to more cabinet volume. Gotcha. I thought you were talking about Andy's mentioning of possible phasing problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tommythelurker Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes you guys are both ignoring the fact that speaker efficiency does not have a linear relationship with power applied. x watts through one speaker experiences more thermal loss than x watts through two of the same speakers (keeping other variables the same, and impedances matched, etc.). of course total energy doesn't change, but what that energy is converted into does change. the only thing that's not debatable is that you're oversimplifying things and ignoring critical variables. Probably not a significant factor until you get close to the rated power of the speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 Originally posted by Roccaforte Amps and, you'll be pushing more air. More speakers=more volume. I hope that's a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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