Amp/PA setup question for keyboards

[JeffLearman]

Given the budget limitations, I suggest you find an inexpensive mixer (even a Behringer) and one powered speaker (ideally not the Behringer). Later you can add another powered speaker, stands, etc.

 

Note that you'll also need cables. Don't fall for Monster cables, of course. I hope that goes without saying.

 

Right now on ebay there's a B-stock (open box) ZXA-1 for $399.

 

The Behringer http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1002B looks like it would do the job for minimal cost (under $100 for a blemished one). If you throw it away in a couple years, it's earned its cost anyway. This the absolute minimum mixer you'll need, since you'll have at least 3 vocal mics plus 3 instruments. I believe this will handle up to 5 mics and one electronic instrument like keyboards. However you may find a better mixer cheaper, used on ebay, like the Yamaha mentioned above. [Edit: that particular MG mixer doesn't have enough channels for you, but a bigger brother would. The best Yamaha MG mixer for you would probably be the Yamaha MG124c.]

 

About the ZXA-1's 8" drivers -- in years past, we've learned what speaker area meant in terms of bass response, but that was with typical cone excursion. Recently they've come a long way in being able to make speakers with much greater excursion that still sound good. Note that the limit on bass response is volume, not area, so half the area with twice the excursion = same bass response.

[JeffLearman]

You asked about stereo and I missed that above. With any of the mixers mentioned here, and two powered speakers, you're good. However, you probably don't need stereo. It adds a bit of complexity and has drawbacks. But, if you are set up with mixer plus two powered speakers, and if you pan the instruments and vocals just a bit, it should help. You need to make sure that everyone in the audience can still hear everything.

 

BTW, if you're playing a venue that has a PA, you don't need anything other than your instruments, for an acoustic gig. You'd only need your own PA to play a coffeehouse or party where there's no PA.

[Tat2bluez]

 

BTW, if you're playing a venue that has a PA, you don't need anything other than your instruments, for an acoustic gig. You'd only need your own PA to play a coffeehouse or party where there's no PA.

 

 

I'm going to pass this info on to my music partners - House parties are popular here. Also the smaller bar/restaurants do 'garden' venues in the warmer weather, where PAs are a must. Not many big venues here. And from what I've heard of some house PAs, I'd rather use my own gear...

 

Thanks again for your kind help~Everyone!

[stillearning]

 

The TC Helicon, like the Mackie SRM150, is a versatile device for nearfield monitoring and maybe some kinds of solo work, but these are not in the same league as the EV in sonic quality, low end, high end, or volume. Those small boxes can be useful tools, but they sound like transistor radios compared to the EV. For those of us here old enough to remember what a transistor radio was.

 

You're right, the TC Helicons don't match the sound quality of the EV ZXA1 speakers, but they're about half the cost (and size) too. We use four of them in a four-piece blues combo with no complaints. I'm in several bands, and in the others we mostly play larger venues and outdoor festivals and always use pro monitors supplied by whatever sound company has been hired, so I'm very familiar with various stage configurations and quality levels, and I'm pleasantly surprised at the sound that comes out of those TC Helicons, considering the size and cost. I think comparing them to 'transistor radios' (yes, I too am old enough) was a bit harsh. Anyways, we're quite happy with ours, and in the right circumstances, I feel they're a quality product and a reasonable choice. Again, not dissin' the EV's, they're great speakers, and certainly will sound better.

[GigMan]

If you haven't heard it, don't dismiss the ZXA1. I have found it very practical for keyboard monitoring, and yes, even as primary amplification for many gigs. And the 8" really does put out a surprising amount of bass (specs say the -3dB point is 60 Hz). You won't get chest-thumping bass out of it, but not everyone needs that. The TC Helicon, like the Mackie SRM150, is a versatile device for nearfield monitoring and maybe some kinds of solo work, but these are not in the same league as the EV in sonic quality, low end, high end, or volume. Those small boxes can be useful tools, but they sound like transistor radios compared to the EV. For those of us here old enough to remember what a transistor radio was.

 

I do believe you, AnotherScott - as EV has always made EXCELLENT products & I've read mostly glowing reviews of the ZXA1's ... I guess my mind just can't get past the 8" woofer aspect - - but the QSC K8's are also supposed to be decent for their size so I guess the modern day speaker technology has really come a long way in squeezing the MOST sound out of the SMALLEST speaker drivers possible!

[GigMan]

About the ZXA-1's 8" drivers -- in years past, we've learned what speaker area meant in terms of bass response, but that was with typical cone excursion. Recently they've come a long way in being able to make speakers with much greater excursion that still sound good. Note that the limit on bass response is volume, not area, so half the area with twice the excursion = same bass response.

 

Yes, very good point - the small 8" drivers are putting out decent bass just not same amount of volume, so maybe for an acoustic trio the 8" jobbies would be enough.

[JeffLearman]

The problem is that anything other than that Behringer that has enough channels is well over $200, which is not in the budget. Better to get something than nothing, and the cheap Berry mixers actually have a pretty good record; I knew lots of people using them successfully in inexpensive home studios. Of course, road use is a lot harder on gear, so it would be wise to baby it as much as possible during transport. (Carry it in an old backpack or wheelie suitcase with some kind of padding.)

 

I'm not a big fan of Behringer, but they do have the most functionality at the lowest price, and much of it even sounds fine. I use a B212A 12" powered speaker for practice, and have often played a friend's FP4 digital piano through one at blues jams and sittin in on his gigs, and while it's not my favorite, it WORKS. Plus his has been through hell and back without any ill effects. He's a seriously hot player, in a band with a guitarist who's a Rock&Roll Hall of Famer.

 

Actually, given the very low budget here, it might be a good idea to go for the B212A or B212D, used on ebay, since they're so inexpensive, and save up the pennies to get some serious gear in a year or two. It's always helpful to have an extra powered speaker or two. Our drummer got this so he could hear the vocals; it was the cheapest way to add one more monitor. Then we switched to a different PA where we don't need it, so now I use it at practice for keyboards and leave it there. Saves me a lot of lugging, and way good enough for practice. But I do question how good the acoustic instruments would sound through it, so it'd be best to find someone who has one to try out first.

 

No, not a big fan of Behringer, but when the budget is too low to get serious gear, it's a very reasonable alternative.

[AnotherScott]

I agree with learjeff about the speakers. I've used the B212A. No, they don't sound as good as the EVs, but they sound better than the first generation JBL Eons I had used before them. They did develop issues, but (a) not until after quite a lot of use, and (b) so had the JBLs. And if you're actually using a pair for stereo (though I agree with the earlier message about mono often being fine for live), at least you always have a spare. ;-)

 

If you can get by with less volume and less bass, even the B208D does a serviceable job, sounding pretty much identical to the B212A except for those two limitations. I would actually take the B208D over the aforementioned TC Helicon (and similar Mackie) speakers unless you needed the other controls or logistic advantages those provide. (And no, stilllearnin, I didn't mean to say that the latter sounded like transistor radios, only that they did compared to the EVs, i.e. that the difference is huge. But they are fine when used for their intended uses.)

 

I'm less enthusiastic about the Behringer boards, though... I've had numerous problems with them over the years. So yes, if you must... baby them. I suspect that the sheer number of controls (and therefore connections) on the mixers vs. the speakers makes them significantly more prone to failures of some sort or another.

[Conbrio]

A friend of mine gigs with a Yamaha StagePas system (amp + speakers). It's good for a small band or solo performer and runs about $500+.

[JeffLearman]

 

A friend of mine gigs with a Yamaha StagePas system (amp + speakers). It's good for a small band or solo performer and runs about $500+.

Good point. I haven't heard it, but my guess is this is a good option. Also, the mixer is smaller and looks like a better shape for mixing from stage, and can be mounted on a mic stand. I've used a fair amount of Yamaha gear over the decades, and have been delighted with it all. My trusty old P2100 power amps finally died after 30 years of service, and I'm sad to let them go! One of them was powered on most of the time.

 

Tat2blues, how many mikes will you be using, and how many instrument pickups (count the keyboard as an instrument pickup)? The StagePAs mixer handles up to 4 mikes, with 2 line inputs. So, if you're miking 3 vocals and one mando/fiddle, plus a guitar pickup, plus keyboards, that's good. But if you have 3 vocal mikes and 2 instrument mikes, then it won't fit the bill.

 

Also, if you play both guitar and keyboards you'll probably want them both plugged in and ready, that takes 7 inputs total, neither of these mixers will work. What's the full list? Sometimes you can make it work by moving mikes during the show, i.e., one mic for a fiddle/mando player who also does vocals but uses just one mic for all three (not singing and playing at the same time).

 

This would all be much simpler on a higher budget, but that's life. And, no matter what the budget,

 

BTW, do you already have mikes, stands, and cables? If not, you're better off playing acoustically, only using the PA for the keyboards, and maybe guitar. Otherwise it'll blow your budget. Playing fully acoustic is great; I wish more artists would do that! Other than acoustic guitar, everything is a lot louder than we tend to think.

[Conbrio]

Good point. I haven't heard it, but my guess is this is a good option. Also, the mixer is smaller and looks like a better shape for mixing from stage, and can be mounted on a mic stand. I've used a fair amount of Yamaha gear over the decades, and have been delighted with it all. My trusty old P2100 power amps finally died after 30 years of service, and I'm sad to let them go! One of them was powered on most of the time.

 

Yeah, it's served him well for a couple years. You just need a couple of poles and you're good to go.

 

I found a pic as well. There are two models btw, either 300 or 500 watts.

 

 

[JeffLearman]

In theory, the 500W version would be less than 3dB louder. If the 300's are *almost* loud enough, then the upgrade would help. If they're not in the ballpark, it won't. However, the 500's mixer also has an extra channel (stereo line input) which would be useful. Unfortunately it's over the budget; cheapest I see on ebay is $760.

 

OK, here's what I don't get:

 

Output Power (RMS): 200W+200W/4Ohm @1% THD at 1kHz (SPEAKERS L/R)

Power Consumption: 65W

 

If there are 65 watts going in, how can they get 400 watts going out? (And are those really 4 Ohm speakers?) I often see this in Yamaha specs and wonder who they're trying to kid.

 

Regardless, they do give this, which is far more meaningful than watts: Maximum Output Level: 116dB (1m)

But I wonder, is that sustained or just for bursts?

 

Sigh.

[AnotherScott]

 

Regardless, they do give this, which is far more meaningful than watts: Maximum Output Level: 116dB (1m) But I wonder, is that sustained or just for bursts?

 

Usually I've seen that spec listed as "peak" which implies the latter.

[Tat2bluez]

 

Tat2blues, how many mikes will you be using, and how many instrument pickups (count the keyboard as an instrument pickup)?

 

 

Okay -

3 vox mics

3 acoustic/electric guitars

1 mando (either plugged in or mic'd)

Keyboard

Acoustic/electric bass

add another vox mic to be placed near keyboard

 

I have a Roland AC60 amp for my guitar, and we all have our own mics and stands, etc.

 

The $500 budget was for *my* personal amp solution for the keyboard. That is not the budget for the PA. But an analysis of the above would be helpful in understanding at least, the specs needed for such a set-up.

[JeffLearman]

OK, thanks.

 

You won't need a keyboard submixer, since you'll only be using one keyboard. You may not need a keyboard monitor, but if you do need one, any of the powered speakers mentioned above would do fine, and you certainly don't need stereo.

 

Most powered speakers have two connectors so you can feed your signal into it and daisy-chain it to the PA. Ideally, the volume control on the speaker doesn't affect what gets passed on to the PA. So, you plug your kb into the speaker's line input and (oddly enough) plug the other input into the PA channel for your keyboards. If the powered speaker you choose doesn't have dual inputs or a daisy-chaining method, you can use a Y cable or a "DI box" (DI = direct input). The latter is best but only necessary when the mixing board isn't close by, or if you need to feed using a balanced XLR cable for whatever reason (e.g., uisng a snake).

 

In this case, your $500 budget is pretty reasonable, and I'd probably go for the ZXA1 myself. EV makes great speakers; I've never been disappointed with any I've used. I wish I still had the 30-yr-old EV 12" floor monitors that were stolen from my car!

 

If I were you, I'd focus first on the band PA and get that sorted, and find out whether you want your personal keyboard monitor. For an electric band, it's crucial. For an acoustic band, it might not be -- that mostly depends on whether you need to hear yourself louder than you'd want to be in the mix, and whether you're using vocal monitors (and if so, is it OK to have some piano in there?) In general, I like to keep the keyboards out of the vocal monitor mix except to the amount the lead vocalist wants.

 

For a trio, a piano should be pretty clear in the mix and monitorless is definitely worth trying.

[Tat2bluez]

 

OK, thanks. For a trio, a piano should be pretty clear in the mix and monitorless is definitely worth trying.

 

 

Oooh, you mean fly without a net? Not that brave;) But what I can now do is get a low cost rehearsal amp and use that as a monitor and put the extra $$ towards the PA.

 

Thanks so much!

[GigMan]

For a trio, a piano should be pretty clear in the mix and monitorless is definitely worth trying.

 

...it is only worth trying if she can tilt the Mains inward and/or put them slightly behind the band - hopefully w/out feeding back.

[GigMan]

Okay - 3 vox mics 3 acoustic/electric guitars 1 mando (either plugged in or mic'd) Keyboard Acoustic/electric bass add another vox mic to be placed near keyboard I have a Roland AC60 amp for my guitar, and we all have our own mics and stands, etc. The $500 budget was for *my* personal amp solution for the keyboard. That is not the budget for the PA. But an analysis of the above would be helpful in understanding at least, the specs needed for such a set-up.

 

Ok Tat2bluez - NOW you are laying out the whole band setup clearly, very good

 

- - of course, u should've done this from the beginning... would've been a lot easier to assess/recommend what you need!

 

Anyway, if it were me in this scenario, I'd skip the Roland AC60 or trade it in towards good stage monitors, to be used for hearing acousti-'lectric guitars, your keyboard & all the vocals. I think the AC60 is really not necessary if you have a good mixer/PA set up and some good stage monitors - ie, you run the acoustic/electric guitars right into the PA, skip the "acoustic guitar amp" altogether - and also don't bother w/a dedicated "keyboard amp" either. In your band situation there's no drums and looks like all acousti-'lectric guitars (no screaming Les Paul Jimmy Page or Slash leads! ) so skipping "amps" altogether is totally feasible, means less gear to carry and simplifies your setup.

 

So from what you describe above, it looks like you need to invest in some good stage monitors more than anything else. - - other than maybe a big mixer w/lots o' inputs for all the channels you've listed about (gtrs., vocals & 1 kybd.).

[GigMan]

You may not need a keyboard monitor, but if you do need one, any of the powered speakers mentioned above would do fine, and you certainly don't need stereo.

 

Noone really ever "needs" stereo keyboards when playing live but once you've tried it and heard how freakin' sweet it sounds (as I did some years back) - and it would be especially easy to hear the sweetness (of stereo) in her acoustic band setup w/no loud drums - it's hard to go back (to mono).

[JeffLearman]

Oooh, you mean fly without a net? Not that brave;) But what I can now do is get a low cost rehearsal amp and use that as a monitor and put the extra $$ towards the PA. Thanks so much!

Bingo! But I'd still recommend a small powered PA speaker over a "keyboard amp". Even the Behringer (which I use as a practice amp and it works great for that).

[JeffLearman]

...it is only worth trying if she can tilt the Mains inward and/or put them slightly behind the band - hopefully w/out feeding back.

I assume that the PA has *some* kind of monitoring, for the vocals and other instruments. Even if they're not dedicated monitors, one can often hear the mains well enough, for a small gig, even if they're out front. I've done it. Remember: small acoustic gig. For a bigger gig or non-acoustic, monitors are absolutely necessary. Whether piano needs a separate monitor is debatable. I always have mine! But I'd want that for acoustic guitar too ... or whatever.

 

I agree with you on stereo. I'm addicted, but I try not to foist my addiction on everyone else.

[Tat2bluez]

I assume that the PA has *some* kind of monitoring, for the vocals and other instruments. Even if they're not dedicated monitors, one can often hear the mains well enough, for a small gig, even if they're out front. I've done it. Remember: small acoustic gig. For a bigger gig or non-acoustic, monitors are absolutely necessary. Whether piano needs a separate monitor is debatable. I always have mine! But I'd want that for acoustic guitar too ... or whatever.

 

@LearJeff: I absolutely agree! Monitors are an absolute necessity; no matter what the size~ I sat in with a band last night whose monitors and mains were very low end and it was a great empirical example of you get what you pay for.

 

@Gigman: I'd never trade in my AC60 - besides loving it to pieces, it has a sweet chorus on it which saves me from buying a 12-string I've always been a fan of miking the amps, even at low volume, for a more even sound through the PA. I think the EVs a couple of people mentioned as mains, sound nice and should be powerful enough until we get into bigger rooms.

 

The fog is starting to lift and a plan seems to be emerging.

 

And: Fedex tracking indicates my new keyboard is on the truck today!!! I can see I won't be getting a lot of sleep this weekend! (Kurzweil SP47).

[pinkfloydcramer61]

JBL Eon (original)- IMO still a good-sounding, workable solution but lacks bass response.

 

Motion Sound KP200s- definitely gives you a stereo field. It cuts down drastically on set-up time and footprint too. Plenty of bass- in a pinch it is a good sounding bass combo amp. But at 55 lbs kinda heavy compared to what is out nowadays. Sometimes struggles with a 2-guitar-crunch band- find yourself wishing for more headroom. IMO they're worth $400 used, if in good condition.

 

Maybe the best reason to consider the QSC K10 is for the amount of "throw" they are said to have, and the bass response. I'm pretty sure one is in my future, when I get rich again.

[JeffLearman]

Don't mic the amp for your keyboard, send a direct feed to the PA. I'd suggest this for acoustic guitar too, but not if you like the effect you're getting. (Frankly, I don't much like acoustic guitar pickups at all; I'd rather mic the guitar directly. But that has its practical issues. One of these days I'm going to break down and put a pup in my acoustic.)

 

I hope you're enjoying your new Kurz!

[GigMan]

@LearJeff: I absolutely agree! Monitors are an absolute necessity; no matter what the size~ I sat in with a band last night whose monitors and mains were very low end and it was a great empirical example of you get what you pay for. @Gigman: I'd never trade in my AC60 - besides loving it to pieces, it has a sweet chorus on it which saves me from buying a 12-string I've always been a fan of miking the amps, even at low volume, for a more even sound through the PA. I think the EVs a couple of people mentioned as mains, sound nice and should be powerful enough until we get into bigger rooms. The fog is starting to lift and a plan seems to be emerging. And: Fedex tracking indicates my new keyboard is on the truck today!!! I can see I won't be getting a lot of sleep this weekend! (Kurzweil SP47).

 

Yes, congrats on the new Kurz - I'm sure you'll love it

 

Ok, so you also love your Roland AC60 - for the chorus effect, no problem - run a line out from the XLR out (w/a mic. cable) over to the PA, the specs show that you can do that w/that amp: http://www.roland.com/products/en/AC-60/

 

- - that way, you have the nice amp sound on stage plus a little bit of reinforcement of the sound in the mains - for the audience to hear. With bigger rooms, the tendency for some bands is to crank up the stage volume for the crowd to hear but it often just turns to mush that way - much better to keep "stage" signal for the stage and send a feed to the mains as well. For smaller rooms stage volume may be enough for the audience though, esp. in an acoustic trio, like yours.