Members GigMan Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 So reading the other thread about replacing a "too-heavy" Yamaha S90ES made me want to start my own... so here it is! Trying to keep it simple: Yamaha S90ES - - I love the sounds, hate the weight/girth, just too damn big to drag up and down my bsmt. stairs any more and getting it in and out of gigs - even in a nice hardshell case w/wheels - is just too much buggy-lugging, it's too damn much to handle for me, I'm a small guy & I've come to the conclusion that as much as I like playing the S90ES - my hatred of moving it starting to override my joy of performing on it... Looked at the Yamaha S70XS - has nice friendly "stage" features (Transpose & Octave buttons, easy-to-create layered patches, etc.) - - but it is NOT very much smaller or lighter than the S90ES I already have. Gave serious consideration to the Kurzweil PC3K7 - but I'd have to truck all the way up to Alto Music in NY state to hear it (or go into Manhattan - ugggh)... and Alto is about a 1.5 hr. drive. It does have 128 note polyphony & those 9 cool sliders that can be used to massage organ sounds. Yamaha MOX8 looks like a nice lightweight rig - but only 64 note poly, as has been discussed ad naseum here... - - that won't do for me, as I am a a heavy sustain pedal user... Yamaha Motif XF7 looks totally hot - incredible sounds, lots of programmability, complex sequencer, user loadable samples, blah blah blah - but the damn thing is over 3 grand - for only 76 keys?! I don't really any see other options on the market - in a 76 or 88 key machine w/bread and butter sounds, 128 note polyphony, under 40lbs./easily transportable... anyone? Bueller? Anyone? The Casio Privia line just doesn't do it for me. I already have a Roland RD300GX - for small gigs where I don't need huge range of sounds - so don't suggest the RD300NX because it doesn't seem to have that much more sound options it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I'd say you should get a Motif Rack XS, which you could drive form your Roland RD300GX (or you could find some lighter 88 to drive it from... the sounds in the 88 don't matter, so you might even be able to use something like the 24 lb Privia PX3, which still has good facilities for calling up patches from an external module). Or you could look for a used Motif Rack ES which would be cheaper, and would give you the exact sounds of your S90ES (except for its S700 piano). Another possibility could be the forthcoming Roland Jupiter 50. But since you love the Yamaha sounds and seem geared toward weighted actions, I think the Motif Rack approach is probably best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 2, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I'd say you should get a Motif Rack XS, which you could drive form your Roland RD300GX (or you could find some lighter 88 to drive it from... the sounds in the 88 don't matter, so you might even be able to use something like the 24 lb Privia PX3, which still has good facilities for calling up patches from an external module). Or you could look for a used Motif Rack ES which would be cheaper, and would give you the exact sounds of your S90ES (except for its S700 piano).Another possibility could be the forthcoming Roland Jupiter 50. But since you love the Yamaha sounds and seem geared toward weighted actions, I think the Motif Rack approach is probably best. Good suggestion but I want to keep it simple - don't want to use a rack on stage, it's just more stuff to bring, hook up, troubleshoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 The XF7 isn't a lot lighter than the S70XS (though it has a ton more features). What are you using the S90ES for? Would something like a Nord Stage work? The problem is, it's hard to find a weighted action keyboard with a good sound and controller set that doesn't weigh a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 The XF7 isn't a lot lighter than the S70XS (though it has a ton more features). The S70XS is about halfway between the XF7 and his S90ES in weight... The S70XS would save him about 6 lbs, the XF7 about 12. Each step may or may not seem so significant, but they do add up! Of course the S70XS has a weighted action, and it's cheaper, so those things can factor in as well. But if he wants something under 40 lbs, well, you have to draw the line somewhere... One thing I've noticed is that different boards of the same weight can still be very different in how cumbersome they are to deal with, depending on dimensions, weight distribution, and how the board can be gripped. So using a weight figure alone can sometimes lead you to a misleading conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 Good suggestion but I want to keep it simple - don't want to use a rack on stage, it's just more stuff to bring, hook up, troubleshoot It is more stuff to bring, but your S90ES is about 50 lbs (+ heavy hard case); a PX3 and Motif Rack XS combined would be about 33 lbs (and could be in very light cases), so total weight is way down, and even though it's in two pieces instead of one, it may not be any more trips (i.e. if the S90ES is one trip in or out now, you could easily have the PX3 in a soft case in one hand and the rack in the other and still do one--far easier--board trip). The extra setup is pretty minimal... one power cord and one MIDI cord (number of audio connections doesn't change, since you're not using the PX3's sounds), plus taking the lids off (or unzipping) the rack. It's not really much more to troubleshoot either. Apart from the MIDI cable and extra power cord, the only other thing to check is that no one changed the MIDI transmit/receive channels. I guess I look at it a little the other way... there are some heavy boards I think are great, and I wish there were a way to split them into two lighter pieces for easier transport! Yamaha is one of the few companies who, in a sense, gives you that possibility. To me, the real compromise of a rack is that you don't have ready access to all the front panel controls. If all you do is call up presets, that doesn't matter much. But if you're the kind of person who tweaks sounds or otherwise does a bunch of front panel navigation/manipulation, the rack approach limits you there. The Rack XS actually provides better front panel control than many rack pieces, but still, it rarely ends up in a place where it's convenient. But obviously, every solution to your problem is a compromise. For most people, the MOX8 would probably be the way to go, but since its 64 polyphony is too much of a compromise for you, I think the rack is next best. If you just can't warm to that for whatever reason, the Roland Jupiter 50 looks interesting. I think everything else ends up past your weight or price limits. BTW, your "over 3 grand - for only 76 keys?!" criticism of the Motif XF is almost equally applicable to the PC3K7. They're both very nice boards, though I don't happen to like the action of the semi-weighted Kurz. Dan's suggestion of the Nord Stage 2 also brings you into that high price range, but I think it's a great board with a pretty nice action, if it has the sounds/functionality you need. It doesn't do as much as the Yamaha and Kurz, but what it does, it does very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evildragon Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 PC3K7 is an obvious choice - it's lighter than XS7, it can do quite a bit more sound-wise than MOX8, and has more polyphony than MOX8... You'll have to try it to see if you'll like the action, though. Personally I think it's pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 The S70XS is about halfway between the XF7 and his S90ES in weight... The S70XS would save him about 6 lbs, the XF7 about 12. Each step may or may not seem so significant, but they do add up! Of course the S70XS has a weighted action, and it's cheaper, so those things can factor in as well. But if he wants something under 40 lbs, well, you have to draw the line somewhere... One thing I've noticed is that different boards of the same weight can still be very different in how cumbersome they are to deal with, depending on dimensions, weight distribution, and how the board can be gripped. So using a weight figure alone can sometimes lead you to a misleading conclusion. True, weight alone isn't the only factor to consider. When I changed to the S70XS from the S90ES, the weight isn't that different, but it's a much easier board to move around because you aren't constantly banging the ends on walls and doorways. I have my music area in the basement, down a narrow stairway and then a door at the bottom on the left, and was always banging the ES on the walls and stuff. Not so with the XS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members delaware dave Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 PC3K7 - You'll have to try it to see if you'll like the action, though. Personally I think it's pretty good. +1[/font][/font] With a GOOD PAIR OF SPEAKERS/EARPHONES, listen to this. It is the Kurzweil PC3. This will give you an indication as to whether you should drive 1.5 hours or not to play the Kurzweil, not only to hear the board but to also decide whether you'll like the keyboard action. As you can see the action is a subject of debate: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_e Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I use a soft skb case with wheels for my s70XS. It's actually for a regular 88 key kb but the s70xs fits fine. since it's a soft case it does not add too much weight and is pretty easy to move around thanks to the wheels. My office/studio/man cave is upstairs in our house so I have to carry it up/down at least one flight of stairs each way, not fun but doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I am still using my Kawai ES4 after about ten years of playing it - and it's still like new! Of course Kawai makes the ES6 now and it's 45 lbs so it weighs a bit more than 40lbs but it has bread and butter sounds, plays great, has a nice low-volume internal speaker system (handier than you might think), and graded piano action. It doesn't have the wide variety of sounds as the yammies/rolands/kurzs already mentioned but the acoustic piano sound is very good and my ES4 has paid for itself a thousand times over in upscale gigs. I use a soft (but sturdy) Kawai-brand wheeled case with it and it's very easy to transport and use. At this rate I'll be using it for years to come. Basically I use the Kawai ES4 for solo gigs where I play along with backing MP3 files so I need very little gear total. And I recently bought a Hammond SK2 for use with band/worship gigs, which I alternate with a 73-note Korg SV-1. All small and relatively light. Might not be exactly what you need but at least it's gear that hasn't been mentioned previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 Korg M50 88 + Yamaha Motif ES Rack, for those Yamaha sounds you just can't do without (and you can decide if the gig is worth taking it with you).I see used M50-88s on Craigslist show up for about 1200 and the Motif ES Rack for 500-600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 Korg M50 88 The point is to replace the S90ES with something noticeably lighter, the M50 weighs almost as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I've got the Nord Stage 88 (Classic), which should be available at a good price these days. Whether the Classic, the EX, or the new Stage II, the 88 note comes in at 40 pounds in a steel case. AND- it's significantly shorter than most 88's because the pitch/mod is above (which suits me very well). I fit my Stage 88 in a rolling case that I used to use for my Motif XS7! I've also been in several situations where the extra 6-8" that is added to the length because of the mod/pitch wheels would have made it impossible to use (theatre gig and for a crowded living room setup). Sound wise the Stage II is the one to get of course- it's got the latest gen organ, and you can play sounds from their extensive free library. With patience, I would think you could get a used Stage II for $3k- $3,500. My experience is they're very reliable. But even the EX or Classic is worth investing in, esp. if you can get one for $2k- $2,500. I LOVE the sounds and playing experience of the Stage. The action is on the light side, which suits me fine, I feel very connected to the sound. I've found several pianos in their library that I find very satisfying, and really dig the Wurli and Rhodes sounds. Not as much of an organ player, but I find it very good as well. 40 pounds is the upper limit of what I'm willing to schleep (by the time you add another 25 pounds or so for your rolling case, it adds up), so having bread and butter satisfaction in an easy to use interface is a welcome relief from having thousands of sounds and features to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted May 2, 2012 Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 The point is to replace the S90ES with something noticeably lighter, the M50 weighs almost as much. You are right, I saw a place where it states the weight of the M50-88 at 36lbs but the Korg site says 46, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 2, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 True, weight alone isn't the only factor to consider. When I changed to the S70XS from the S90ES, the weight isn't that different, but it's a much easier board to move around because you aren't constantly banging the ends on walls and doorways. I have my music area in the basement, down a narrow stairway and then a door at the bottom on the left, and was always banging the ES on the walls and stuff. Not so with the XS. Dan is soooo right about this - Sometimes just weight alone is not a true indicator of "difficulty to transport" -- you have to factor in length, girth, etc... - - and no, this is an email spam to get you to buy "enlargement" pills... Not to mention my S90ES does the same thing - bangs the crap out of my bsmt. stairway walls and the back door leading out to the deck, where I have to take out to get down to driveway/"load in" level for my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 2, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 I've got the Nord Stage 88 (Classic), which should be available at a good price these days. Whether the Classic, the EX, or the new Stage II, the 88 note comes in at 40 pounds in a steel case. AND- it's significantly shorter than most 88's because the pitch/mod is above (which suits me very well). I fit my Stage 88 in a rolling case that I used to use for my Motif XS7! I've also been in several situations where the extra 6-8" that is added to the length because of the mod/pitch wheels would have made it impossible to use (theatre gig and for a crowded living room setup). Sound wise the Stage II is the one to get of course- it's got the latest gen organ, and you can play sounds from their extensive free library. With patience, I would think you could get a used Stage II for $3k- $3,500. My experience is they're very reliable. But even the EX or Classic is worth investing in, esp. if you can get one for $2k- $2,500. I LOVE the sounds and playing experience of the Stage. The action is on the light side, which suits me fine, I feel very connected to the sound. I've found several pianos in their library that I find very satisfying, and really dig the Wurli and Rhodes sounds. Not as much of an organ player, but I find it very good as well. 40 pounds is the upper limit of what I'm willing to schleep (by the time you add another 25 pounds or so for your rolling case, it adds up), so having bread and butter satisfaction in an easy to use interface is a welcome relief from having thousands of sounds and features to deal with. The "Stage" line is great except for one major thing: it is not multitimbral. This is a deal-killer for me - I want/need a 'board that can do at least simple layers: strings over pianos - acoustic or Rhodes, piano w/pads - acoustic or Rhodes again... and even piano w/nice organ behind it - once again, acoustic or Rhodes/Wurli. I know the organ "purists" will poo-poo the organ timbres in a ROMpler but it's good enough for live use for my purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 2, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2012 With a GOOD PAIR OF SPEAKERS/EARPHONES, listen to this. It is the Kurzweil PC3. This will give you an indication as to whether you should drive 1.5 hours or not to play the Kurzweil, not only to hear the board but to also decide whether you'll like the keyboard action. As you can see the action is a subject of debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tosd_3yCGWc I will probably make the 1.5 hrs. drive, just to hear the Kurzweil - the PC3 was a strong contender when I got my S90ES. It was down to these 3 when I was shopping for the S90ES: Yamaha S90ES Kurzweil PC3 Roland RD700GX In similar fashion, if I make the drive to Alto Music to check out the Kurz. PC3K7, I can try these three side by side: Kurz. PC3K7 Yamaha MOX8 Yamaha Motif XF7 ...maybe I'd even give one of the Casio jobbers a listen - the PX3 or the Privia PX330 - maybe matching up one of those lightweight 'boards up w/the Yamaha Motif XS rack, like AnotherScott suggested, maybe that really is a viable, lightweight solution. I'd get all the great Motif sounds in the rack and get the portability of the lightweight Casio keyboard - which is supposed to have some decent sounds in and of itself. I'd be creating a learning curve and mandatory programming time though - but I guess any new gear deserves some "sweat equity" learning time w/it to really make best use out of it - of which I hardly put any into the S90ES... - - and yet, I was able to play hundred of gigs w/it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 The "Stage" line is great except for one major thing: it is not multitimbral. Yes it is. It is 6-part multi-tibral. You can split and layer up to two organ sounds, two piano sounds (acoustics, rhodes, clavs, etc.), and two synth engine sounds, which includes their VA, their FM, and their sample library sounds (orchestral, mellotron and other classic keys, etc.), or samples of your own. All the examples you listed are possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 ...maybe I'd even give one of the Casio jobbers a listen - the PX3 or the Privia PX330 - maybe matching up one of those lightweight 'boards up w/the Yamaha Motif XS rack, like AnotherScott suggested, maybe that really is a viable, lightweight solution. I'd get all the great Motif sounds in the rack and get the portability of the lightweight Casio keyboard - which is supposed to have some decent sounds in and of itself. Forget the PX330. The PX3 is worlds better for your purposes. It has a bunch of better built in sounds, but more importantly, it has a wide range of MIDI controller functions, the PX330 has almost none. On the PX3, you can program a bunch of its buttons to call up presets on an attached rack module, you can't do that on the PX330. You can also split and layer internal and external sounds in all kinds of combinations... again, not something you can do on the 330. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 Yes it is. It is 6-part multi-tibral. You can split and layer up to two organ sounds, two piano sounds (acoustics, rhodes, clavs, etc.), and two synth engine sounds, which includes their VA, their FM, and their sample library sounds (orchestral, mellotron and other classic keys, etc.), or samples of your own. All the examples you listed are possible. Oh, excellent - I thought it was only one sound at a time... I must be thinking of the Nord? It's still 40lbs. though - the "Stage" line. I'd only be shaving about 9 lbs. off of the S90ES - but I guess I'd be losing some size in length also, due to the placement of the pitch/mod wheels - so that's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 Forget the PX330. The PX3 is worlds better for your purposes. It has a bunch of better built in sounds, but more importantly, it has a wide range of MIDI controller functions, the PX330 has almost none. On the PX3, you can program a bunch of its buttons to call up presets on an attached rack module, you can't do that on the PX330. You can also split and layer internal and external sounds in all kinds of combinations... again, not something you can do on the 330. cool - - - weighing in at 23.8 lbs makes the Casio PX3 a very attractive prospect! - - esp. if it it has extensive controller capabilities, to match it up w/the Motif Rack ES might be a REALLY nice setup after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 Oh, excellent - I thought it was only one sound at a time... I must be thinking of the Nord? The Nord Electro line is one sound at a time, the (heavier and more expensive) Nord Stage line is multi-timbral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 ...just realized one other MAJOR drawback to adding a rack unit to my rig: in the wedding band I play in, there's 2 stereo inputs dedicated to my rig on the StudioLive 24.4.2 mixer - and that mixer is COMPLETELY maxed out, there's NO open channels, believe it or not - - it's an 8 piece band (sometimes 9 if we add trombone) w/multiple singers and we all go DIRECT w/our instruments (keys, gtr., bass, Roland VDrums) - and monitor via a HearBack system... so EVERY input is taken up, including talkback mic. and stereo returns. So if I did wind up w/a rack unit - Motif Rack ES or XS - I'd have to then lug along a separate submixer to be able to feed all 3 of my keybd. sources to the FOH mixer: Korg Triton Le, Motif Rack & ____________ (whatever replaces the S90ES). So adding a rack unit - while it could cut down on the weight/bulk of my transport - would require always bringing the submixer (I have a Yamaha MG82CX) as well - even MORE junk to set up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 The Nord Electro line is one sound at a time, the (heavier and more expensive) Nord Stage line is multi-timbral. Just noticed prices on the Nord Stage line - outrageous... the Stage 2 w/only 76 keys, is over 4K : http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Stage2-76/ Too rich for my blood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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