If Apple made a piano...

[zoink]

Apple culture is kind of annoying -- especially what you see in an Apple Store in a high tech yuppie city like Austin.

I'm neither a cheerleader nor a hater of Apple products themselves (some things I like, some I don't), but as a company they are turning into the next Microsoft -- or maybe worse in the end.

One thing to remember when considering Steve Jobs's now much talked about meeting with President Obama ("Those jobs are never coming back"), is that Apple *could* remain a very profitable company while paying American workers a decent wage to build their products. The profit margin they're seeing from the sale of their products is actually beyond industry norms. The difference here is between being a very successful company and an OBSCENELY RICH one. Apple chose the latter course, and so they stay with Foxconn which pays their workers about $18 a day. But there IS no real determinism in this -- i.e. it doesn't HAVE to be this way -- and Jobs was disingenuous to insinuate that it does.

I always laugh when people these days like to cite Adam Smith (the "invisible hand") and try to suggest that capital moves overseas as if by its own power, automatically. No. It's a product of choice.

It all boils down to what you value most. And let's face it, lately a lot of people value money over EVERYTHING else. In modern corporate culture, "virtuous" behavior is that which brings profits. Period. The human cost doesn't even enter into it.

As for their products, my biggest gripe would be iTunes (it's just terrible software), and in general the way Apple tries to control the user experience of their products.

[McHale]

Originally Posted by zoink

...they are turning into the next Microsoft -- or maybe worse in the end.

I don't see how being like Microsoft is a bad thing, but Apple is 10 times worse than Microsoft in every possible way.

Take a look at the Bill Gates foundation and see what he (and they) are doing. Then read about how big of a D-bag Steve Jobs was to his kids, his family, as well as his workers. Tack on the OWS morons that were against evil corporate greed while carrying all these freaking iDevices. They are the dumbest of them all...

[zoink]

Originally Posted by McHale

I don't see how being like Microsoft is a bad thing, but Apple is 10 times worse than Microsoft in every possible way.

Take a look at the Bill Gates foundation and see what he (and they) are doing. Then read about how big of a D-bag Steve Jobs was to his kids, his family, as well as his workers. Tack on the OWS morons that were against evil corporate greed while carrying all these freaking iDevices. They are the dumbest of them all...

You have to separate what Microsoft is/was as a company from what Bill Gates is doing now, post Microsoft, to really see them in realistic perspective -- much as you'd separate Andrew Carnegie the ruthless robber baron (even complicit in murder -- see Homestead Strike, 1892) from the philanthropist of later life.

Microsoft engaged in anti-competitive business practices, and got away with it for a longer period, than any other technology company I can think of. They basically forced everyone else out of the PC OS market by making hardware manufacturers license Windows for EVERY machine they sold, making it cost prohibitive for hardware producers to offer any other alternatives. Any other good idea that Microsoft couldn't copy (poorly) and get away with they simply bought -- going back to DOS itself, FrontPage, WebTV, Hotmail, Internet Explorer, Visio, the list goes on. In many cases they'd buy an idea just so they could bundle it with their other offerings and wipe out the competition. Hell, they even worked WITH the Chinese government to promote internet censorship in China.

I could go on: their oppressive business software licensing practices; the things they did to try and corner the browser market with Internet Exploder (sic); etc.

It's well known that Microsoft in MANY ways abused what amounted to a monopoly in the PC operating system market -- and they got away with it because it took years for the legislative process to come up with laws that really addressed or understood the implications of what they were doing.

I've had this conversation with people who finally, in the face of facts, brought out what they thought was their trump card in Microsoft's defense: "Well that's what you have to do to stay on top in business."

Maybe. But I wish more people (especially corporate types) would stop and think about the kind of world they're creating when they do this.

[McHale]

My argument wouldn't be, "that what's you have to do to stay in business" at all. Far from it. In fact, take a look at Apple filing for patents on things they had NOTHING to do with then suing over them. In every country EXCEPT America, those frivolous lawsuits get tossed out. Here, because it's American company vs. foreign company, they win every time. Apple is BY FAR 10 times worse for this type of anti-competitive practice. They've stolen every good idea they've got. If Microsoft wanted Apple dead, that would have happened. Because Microsoft DIDN'T want to be the only OS in town, Bill gates personally saved Apple. Or did you forget that fact? Microsoft could kill Apple any time they wanted to by NOT offering their software for that platform. Think about how few Macs would get sold to business or schools if Office was no longer available for them. That's all it would take.

As far as Microsoft "making" manufacturers buy their OS, that's completely bull{censored}. It's called a licensing deal. Like Asus hardware but would like to run MacOS on it? Oh, that's right... Apple refuses to even license their software to anyone else so you are FORCED to buy their hardware if you want their software. THAT is anti-competitive business practices. The fact that Microsoft got sued because they bundle IE with Windows is laughable. Isn't Safari bundled with iOS? What Microsoft did goes on with every company out there NOW. Like baseball? Go to a ballpark and try to order a beer other than the one that got the deal. Same with hot dogs or pizza or... Or how about buying an HTC phone and getting iOS on it. Or a Motorola phone and get Windows Phone OS on it... As far as buying out company's to compete with other products, what planet are you living on? EVERY company does that. Why do you think Facebook bought Instagram? Why did Google buy Motorola?

Your anti-Microsoft arguments are void of reality, son. You're isolating Microsoft for doing what was done before them and has been done after them. If it WEREN'T for Microsoft, Apple would have been out of business around 1997, computers and software wouldn't be as advanced as it is today and there'd be no smartphones. We also wouldn't have many other products that aren't considered computers like synthesizers. There's a reason that Windows is STILL on over 90% of computers and Office is the #1 Office package out there. It's because there IS no competition for them. Sure, there are alternatives but they pale in comparison. That's not Microsoft's fault.

God Bless Bill gates. God Bless Microsoft.

AND GOD BLESS THE USA.

-Mc

[Gribs]

It is interesting to me that economists and capitalists like to quote "Wealth of Nations" but never considering Adam Smith's book "Invisible Hand" or other writings concerning the morality of capitalism and how the purpose is to raise the standard of living for everyone in a nation. The moral model for capitalism in modern USA appears to me to be more like an Ayn Rand philosophy.

In the end, companies that are traded publically are beholden to their share holders. Control and philosophy of business practices come from the board of directors led by the CEO.

Apple is more a design, integrator, and marketing company than anything. It is not a manufacturing company at all, and that is why it relies on external companies to assemble its goods. It is important to note, in my opinion, that the components that go into those assemblies are sourced from and often even designed by outside suppliers. Manufacturing for the components can be done all over the world including in the USA. This is not an argument for Apple's OUS assembly methods but rather an attempt to point out that delivery of an iPad to your hands involves many businesses inside and outside the USA. Apple appears to be the evil empire, but the economic effect of Apple is far reaching and deep in the US economy. That is why I hope the company continues to succeed.

I am one of those guys who builds my own PC system from components and enjoys farting around with the OS and whatnot, and yes it is significantly cheaper to do it that way if you are willing to deal with windows or are a fan of Linux. You pay a premium of about 2X to buy into an Apple desktop that has the same performance. This is not fan boy speak, it is just the way things are. One reason why the Apples are so stable is that they do not have to design their software for any number of different hardware components. There is no competition in the marketplace among e.g. motherboard suppliers. If you are not a tech head then Apple is definitely the way to go, but if you are a hobbyist who wants to tinker it is not.

[ChristianRock]

Don't let the facts get in the way of your hatred, McHale... show me ONE company that actually makes mass-produced computers or phones in the US. Just one.

[McHale]

Originally Posted by ChristianRock

Don't let the facts get in the way of your hatred, McHale... show me ONE company that actually makes mass-produced computers or phones in the US. Just one.

What does that matter? I can name a LOT of American companies that manufacture everything here in America. The only reason companies outsource to China is to save money. Apple, the richest company in America doesn't NEED to exploit Chinese children workers, they CHOOSE to to continue their insanely high cost to profit ratio. And they get insane tax breaks for doing so. More companies would bring manufacturing to America if they could afford to. Many would have to raise prices which they may not be able to do to stay competitive. Steve Jobs FAMOUSLY told Obama that those manufacturing jobs would never, EVER come back to America. *AND* they are already charging top dollar and a half compared to the rest of the market. They could easily do it, not charge a nickel more and STILL make an insanely huge profit. They don't do it because they are money hungry pricks... just like Steve Jobs.

Those who idolize Steve Jobs obviously know nothing about his personal life and how he treated everyone around him.

[ChristianRock]

But it does matter. You are vilifying a computer company for doing what all computer companies do. If that is not a failing, irrational argument, I don't know what is.

[McHale]

 

Originally Posted by ChristianRock

But it does matter. You are vilifying a computer company for doing what all computer companies do. If that is not a failing, irrational argument, I don't know what is.

 

I'm vilifying a company for doing what SOME companies are forced to do but others choose not to. I don't give a crap if they make the most expensive computers in the industry or floor mats. You're saying that since other companies apparently exploit small children in awful working conditions it's OK. THAT is irrational. And they don't do it because they need to survive and it's the only way, they do it because they want MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY and don't care who they step on or who gets killed to get it.

[ChristianRock]

I'm saying all COMPUTER companies manufacture in China. You are trying to say "well if a completely unrelated company in a completely unrelated market can be competitive manufacturing in the US, Apple should be able to do so as well". That is irrational.

Also, the child labor thing is a straw man and you know it. It's not like Apple said "hmmm let's hire some children to build our products". They use the largest Chinese company to build their stuff (Foxconn) and guess what, that's what all the others use too. So the entire argument is biased against Apple. It's not like Foxconn said "hmm let's hire some kids, but ONLY to build Apple products!! Because Steve Jobs wants us to do that."

Also, if you are in the computer business either you manufacture in China or you are not competitive. That's why ALL computer companies do it. You know nothing about business, apparently.

[McHale]

Foxconn has a long standing reputation for horrible work conditions, child labor issues and suicides. You and I shouldn't even know the name Foxconn. The reason we do is because of that reputation.

But to say that Microsoft is evil because they do what every other computer company does (OP) but Apple is not because they do what every other computer company does... seriously, WTF?!

There's a reason that Apple will fight tooth and nail to keep their profit margins hidden (today's headlines is that they have one chance left before being forced to reveal them). The reason is, they are insane and WAY off of what every other computer company is charging. So if you want to compare them to other computer companies, compare everything.

[zoink]

Originally Posted by McHale

Apple is BY FAR 10 times worse for this type of anti-competitive practice. They've stolen every good idea they've got. If Microsoft wanted Apple dead, that would have happened. Because Microsoft DIDN'T want to be the only OS in town, Bill gates personally saved Apple. Or did you forget that fact?

LOL. Who could forget it? You're citing yet another example that proves my point. Microsoft tried to keep Apple alive -- not as a viable competitor in the OS market, but to help fabricate the appearance that Microsoft wasn't a monopoly. This is all well known.

Originally Posted by McHale

As far as Microsoft "making" manufacturers buy their OS, that's completely bull{censored}. It's called a licensing deal.

It's not just a "licensing deal" when you're using market dominance to require that all hardware producers pay you a price per unit sold whether you include their OS in the sale or not. This basically prevented PC companies like Dell from having the option of selling a computer *without* Windows, since they had to pay the per unit licensing fee regardless. To buy a PC, you had to buy Windows, and for many years this prevented ANYONE ELSE from entering the PC OS market.

To sell even one PC with Windows, a company had to put Windows on ALL of their products and pay the licensing fee -- or NOT install it on all units, but STILL pay the fee.

You don't see a problem with this? Really? LOL

[McHale]

Originally Posted by zoink

To sell even one PC with Windows, a company had to put Windows on ALL of their products and pay the licensing fee -- or NOT install it on all units, but STILL pay the fee.

You don't see a problem with this? Really? LOL

No. They did not HAVE to pay a licensing fee for Windows for every PC if they didn't want to. To get extremely aggressive discounted pricing, that was the deal WHICH WAS A VERY GOOD DEAL. They had the ability to not get the discount and continue to purchase the OS at the current rates they were already buying at. Trust me, it was WAY cheaper to pay for a license for the very, very few % of computers that were sold where the consumer didn't want the Windows OS. If that were not the case, they wouldn't have made the deal - nobody would have. But PLEASE compare it to how Apple does business. If you want their OS, you HAVE to buy their extremely overpriced hardware even though the OS will run on ANY hardware. There is NO choice for the consumer. THAT I see a problem with.

What's funny is, Apple's entire marketing scheme has been - "We're not better, but you'll look cool and hip if you buy this." Hell of a marketing scheme because it worked and people still fall for it today. Almost every iPhone fanboy I work with *HAS* to have the latest iPhone every year even though there isn't a single new feature offered that they will use.

[Gribs]

Just as an example from the part of my current line of work that lies outside the display industry, Cree manufactures its LED-driven troffers in the USA (Durham NC):

Troffer brochure from Cree

The pricing on these, for a solid state fixture, is very competitive. There was a time when Cree LEDs were manufactured entirely in the USA too, but I think they bought and qualified a line in China for some of their LEDs. However the brochure from the troffer states it is designed, manufactured, and assembled in the USA. I am not sure if it is possible to build anything involving consumer electronics that contains 100% components made in the USA. The reality is that we are living in a world economy now.

[MikeyParent]

Originally Posted by McHale

1. They are the WORST American company currently in existence. ALL of their manufacturing is where? Oh yah, China made by underpaid children (and adults too...).
2. Though they have more money than our government or ANY company in the US, they make huge demands for VERY huge tax breaks before they will open a new branch of facility... because they need it obviously.
3. The vast majority of their good ideas were stolen by the biggest corporate douchebag in the tech world. Then they have the balls to proclaim they were THEIR ideas and sue those they stole the ideas from.
4. I've supported PC's for a living for many, many years and the Apple "enthusiasts" consider themselves better and smarter than anyone else... and they are usually the most clueless.
5. I could go on but I'm good enough with 1 thru 4.

You're resting your case on this? Weakest argument ever.

[zoink]

Originally Posted by McHale

Your anti-Microsoft arguments are void of reality, son.

Son? LOL. Save the condescending address. I'm older than you. And I saw how Microsoft operated all the way back to their original deal with IBM (the CP/M and QDOS fiasco). It's all well known and well documented in hundreds if not thousands of articles online and in print. Do the research.

You can start here:

Microsoft -A History of Anticompetitive Behavior and Consumer Harm

Originally Posted by McHale

You're isolating Microsoft for doing what was done before them and has been done after them. If it WEREN'T for Microsoft, Apple would have been out of business around 1997,
-Mc

And if Microsoft -- once they realized the jig was up -- hadn't gone out of their way to doctor the appearance of not being a monopoly, they would have been in more serious trouble. And they knew this.

Originally Posted by McHale

There's a reason that Windows is STILL on over 90% of computers and Office is the #1 Office package out there.

Yeah, there sure is. Microsoft showed that when you leverage market dominance in calculated anti-competitive ways, you "win." If they really wanted a competitive marketplace, they would have said to PC makers, "Sure. Just pay us for your sales in which the customer opts for Windows. We're so confident that our OS is better that we'll let the customer decide at point of sale."

But they were AFRAID of just this. They KNEW how fleeting success could be in a market like this, so they stifled EVERYONE ELSE from gaining any kind of foothold.

And it's funny that you mention Office, because they CONTINUE to do this with Office as well, through their licensing, intentional backward compatibility problems, etc.

If you ever played Monopoly as a kid, then you know how the game always ended. One person gains sufficient market advantage to where he can eventually no longer lose. No amount of "creativity", "savvy", or statistical probability changes the outcome.

Originally Posted by McHale

God Bless Bill gates. God Bless Microsoft.

AND GOD BLESS THE USA.

-Mc

[ChristianRock]

Originally Posted by McHale

But to say that Microsoft is evil because they do what every other computer company does (OP) but Apple is not because they do what every other computer company does... seriously, WTF?!

Who said anything about Microsoft? You're the one who brought them up.

What I'm saying is, if one is evil, they are all evil and you should not use computers at all. Singling out Apple is just wrong. Who do you think builds Microsoft's tablets and other things? Foxconn.

[MikeyParent]

Originally Posted by McHale

I can name a LOT of American companies that manufacture everything here in America.

We're just asking you to name one electronics company that mass-manufactures in America.

Originally Posted by McHale

God Bless Bill gates. God Bless Microsoft.

AND GOD BLESS THE USA.

-Mc

Wow... LOL - Thanks for telling me all I needed to know

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

It would probably write it's own songs and then play them for you and bore you to tears

[MikeyParent]

Originally Posted by ChristianRock

Who said anything about Microsoft? You're the one who brought them up.

What I'm saying is, if one is evil, they are all evil and you should not use computers at all. Singling out Apple is just wrong. Who do you think builds Microsoft's tablets and other things? Foxconn.

McHale obviously lives in a world where in order to love Apple you must hate Microsoft and vice versa... he probably thinks the cold war is still in full swing.

[zoink]

It's true that what Apple is doing is essentially no different from anyone else in the tablet or smartphone market. This is an extremely profitable business, and everyone is trying to cut production costs and reduce time to market.

It's a form of brinkmanship, which is an interesting phenomenon in cases like this. If one company outsources to China and gains an advantage from doing it, suddenly EVERYBODY has to do it just to remain competitive.

Aside from low wages, one of the advantages every producer gains from using Foxconn is in their ability to mobilize their workforce in exactly the way that a particular production run requires.

What does set Apple apart, for now, is the recent legal ruling against Samsung and their general "patent troll" stance toward competitors. This *is* a problem, and again it has to do with the fact that patent laws presently on the books don't sufficiently account for things like "rounded corners" as a defensible exclusive design feature.

[bruto]

I think an Apple Piano would have no black keys, be tuned to Locrian mode, and produce a soothing sinusoidal wave with only a mild attack.

Interestingly, the origins of Apple and Sequential Circuits took place within a few miles of each other and at roughly the same time. Apple does actively support music making with Logic, and they still rely on ProTools users to drive MacBook and Mac Pro sales.

[MikeyParent]

Originally Posted by zoink

It's true that what Apple is doing is essentially no different from anyone else in the tablet or smartphone market. This is an extremely profitable business, and everyone is trying to cut production costs and reduce time to market.

It's a form of brinkmanship, which is an interesting phenomenon in cases like this. If one company outsources to China and gains an advantage from doing it, suddenly EVERYBODY has to do it just to remain competitive.

Aside from low wages, one of the advantages every producer gains from using Foxconn is in their ability to mobilize their workforce in exactly the way that a particular production run requires.

What does set Apple apart, for now, is the recent legal ruling against Samsung and their general "patent troll" stance toward competitors. This *is* a problem, and again it has to do with the fact that patent laws presently on the books don't sufficiently account for things like "rounded corners" as a defensible exclusive design feature.

Agreed, on all counts.

[McHale]

Originally Posted by ChristianRock

Who said anything about Microsoft? You're the one who brought them up.

um... no. The first mention of the word Microsoft was this:

Originally Posted by zoink

I'm neither a cheerleader nor a hater of Apple products themselves (some things I like, some I don't), but as a company they are turning into the next Microsoft -- or maybe worse in the end.

What I'm saying is, if one is evil, they are all evil and you should not use computers at all. Singling out Apple is just wrong. Who do you think builds Microsoft's tablets and other things? Foxconn.

And my response was, there's nothing wrong with being Microsoft. We are where we are technologically because of Microsoft. To which the response was, OMG OMG THEY ARE EVIL OMG OMG.

-Mc

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by RetroVintageOld

It's not as stupid as it sounds. I never would have thought they would have made a phone.

So if Apple made a digital piano/synth, what would it be like? Good or bad.

It would be white... then in many colours...

It would be smaller... then in many smaller sizes...

The keys would be rounded in every way... then it would become a rounded tablet shape...

All controlls would be by a full length touch screen... then the keys would become part of the screen...

It has already happened... See what someone else posted...





PS I want McHale to be their sales rep....