Why don't most of you guys ...

[jerryjg]

Concentrate on writing drivel like THIS;

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAkQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQtdOpnCBLj8&ei=vwxhS6yUL87tlAf44bXhCw&usg=AFQjCNFGfLCj4LlweMWKIHCXoG1gnRPD-Q&sig2=oxPgNNhP47psM3dsKyaeZg

 

 

 

Its what pays!!!

[blue2blue]

Because I don't like drivel like that?

 

 

Just where was that a number one hit in 1979? What country? What chart?

 

I mean, because, while I was actively avoiding music like that, I sure heard a lot of drivel that was current then, crap from bands like the Starship, KC and the Sunshine Band, Boston, and such. But I sure don't remember hearing that or even ever hearing the guy's name before.

 

 

Anyhow, you may not have noticed this sticky thread at or near the top of the SW forum listing, SW Forum RULES (read this BEFORE posting!), but this is an on topic, work-oriented forum dedicated to discussing songwriting and giving constructive criticism to other writers on works in progress. Specifically against the rules are threads started about specific hit (or not so hit) songs (mostly to prevent fan-spam and the like -- although I doubt this is that. )

 

So, what say we turn this thread into a discussion of writing for commercial success vs. writing for creative/artistic fulfillment -- sound good?

 

 

[in case you hadn't figured it out from my smarmy tone, I'm the long-suffering moderator here in the SW forum. ]

[rockinrobby]

Well I didn't listen to it? Why don't you write songs like mine? Hummm? Oh I know :-) 24 posts? And you're trying to drum up support/hits for your site? GFY! (Good For You)....

[blue2blue]

That's the friendliest interpretation of GFY I've read.

 

jerryjg was actually just pointing to a song on YouTube by a guy named Robert John, who, according to the YT page on the song ("Sad Eyes") had a number one hit with it in '79. (And according to his Wikipedia page, too.)

 

If it'd been regular disguised spam I would have nuked it in the proverbial drop dead second. You know me.

 

What's pretty astounding to me is that I have heard one of his songs before -- "White Bucks and Saddle Shoes" -- from 1958 (only a year after Ed Sullivan sprang Elvis Presley on the mainstream American public)... although I'm pretty sure I haven't heard it since that long, long ago decade of supposed innocence. He also supposedly had a number three hit (somewhere) with a cover of the Token's classic version of The Lion Sleeps Tonight. I might, every so faintly remember that. In those days I was hearing a lot of AM radio, since that was all my car had. And I'd loved the Tokens version as a kid.

[jerryjg]

Because I don't like drivel like that? Anyhow, you may not have noticed this sticky thread at or near the top of the SW forum listing, SW Forum RULES (read this BEFORE posting!) , but this is an on topic, work-oriented forum dedicated to discussing songwriting and giving constructive criticism to other writers on works in progress . Specifically against the rules are threads started about specific hit (or not so hit) songs (mostly to prevent fan-spam and the like -- although I doubt this is that. )

 

Duly noted. Thanks.

[blue2blue]

The rules might seem kind of fussy but they're basically designed to keep the forum focused on songwriting and constructive feedback but free of promo spam, street teams or extended discussions of specific artists (start a thread on Rush sometime and see what happens ).

 

 

But we certainly welcome thoughtful thread topics about songwriting... and I think the question you framed around that song -- or the implicit greater question as I reframed it -- is a good one. In fact, there's a sort of similarly themed thread already going in the forum on the dilemma of maybe making music that few will ever hear.

 

Stick around and shoot the breeze. And, if you're a songwriter, next time you need some feedback on a new song, drop a quick demo past us. We cut a lot of slack on demos... everyone here understands that there are times when you need to get feedback on a song before you've really entirely worked out how to sing or play it. Nature of the game.

 

[Surrealistic]

So, to take blue's point and make something of this topic, how about this question:

 

If you realised you'd written something that was, to use the OP's word, "drivel", but had a good chance of making you some money if you pushed it a little, would you:

 

 

• going to make me famous. I don't want fame anyway and I especially don't want it attached to something that doesn't represent what I'm about.

 

I should add that even though it's an interesting (maybe) hypothetical question, the reality isn't so simple. I did go through a period of trying to write more commercial stuff. I had a couple of music biz type people encouraging me to write songs for their latest prot

[speierg]

 

Writing "drivel" that sells is harder than it looks.

 

 

I totally agree. We are often too quick to label something as drivel or garbage or whatever your word of choice might be. How many times have you heard someone say, "anybody could write crap like that"? But that is simply not true...the next time someone says that to you, ask them to give you a copy of their last top 40 hit. After all, if anyone can do it...

 

Now there are other factors that can cause a song to be commercially successful. A particular artist might be really hot at any given moment for reasons other than their artistic/musical abilities and that can drive sales...so I'm not saying that certain commercially successful songs aren't pretty awful. Some are and you just have to shake your head and wonder why people are buying it. But writing a song that genuinely does have mass appeal (based just on the song and not other factors) really does take some skill and artistry. It may be a different type of skill than the really pure songwriting folks (many of whom never gain a lot of commercial success) but there's more to it than many would have you believe.

[Lee Knight]

I would have loved to have written Sad Eyes. Except I despise the premise.

 

Looks like it's over, you knew I couldn't stay

She's coming home today

 

and...

 

Try to remember the magic that we shared

In time your broken heart will mend

I never used you, you knew I really cared.

I hate to see it have to end

 

Not only is it lame writing, but the premise itself, "Hey, I reamed you silly but we agreed, right? Don't cry!" That's stupid.

 

But strip away the sappy production, take away the trendy at the time falsetto verses, and you have a solid pop melody. And a great chorus. Which is why the song did so well.

 

So... frankly... the sarcastic OP? I agree to some extent. I believe we could all use some work polishing up our melody skills.

 

Wh...oa.... ow.... {censored}! I just fell of my soapbox.

[blue2blue]

 

So, to take blue's point and make something of this topic, how about this question:   If you realised you'd written something that was, to use the OP's word, "drivel", but had a good chance of making you some money if you pushed it a little, would you: Go for it - and if so, how much money would need to be on the table to make you choose this option? Throw it away - you don't want to compromise your artistic integrityPersonally I'd choose the first option if it went some way to paying off my mortgage - with the proviso that someone else is performing the damn thing and it's not going to make me famous. I don't want fame anyway and I especially don't want it attached to something that doesn't represent what I'm about.   I should add that even though it's an interesting (maybe) hypothetical question, the reality isn't so simple. I did go through a period of trying to write more commercial stuff. I had a couple of music biz type people encouraging me to write songs for their latest prot

[Lee Knight]

 

Unlike Lee, the song's charms pretty much escape me.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong... I don't like the song. I also think there are some serious faults to its craft. But... I see that there is quality in some of its craft.

 

If someone were to sit down and say, "I just wrote this melody and chords, what do you think...?" Then he went about humming along with his strummed chords, you'd most likely be impressed.

 

That's my point.

 

I don't think the song "charming" in the least. I do however appreciate some of its craft.

[blue2blue]

No, no, don't get me wrong. I knew what you meant, you thought it had a good melody but you made it pretty clear that the rest of it didn't do much for you. I got that.

 

And, hell, it clearly had its actual fans.

 

FWIW, I know I sometimes give you a hard time on the taste front (jokingly, I must reiterate) but I admire those with broad tastes, even when I don't necessarily understand or agree with every aspect of them.

 

It might be different if you only liked lame music.

 

 

BTW... I have a 3DW pal who's sort of a weird cross between you and me... he's got what you might call tornado tastes...

 

He likes some of almost everything -- but not much... it's like when the tornado smashes every 5th trailer. He'll go from the nastiest death metal to total wide-eyed pop without a blink. But moving around within a genre, there's no telling what he's going to like or hate... I mean, he likes a fair amount of indie/Americana stuff/postmodern folkie stuff but don't even mention Elliot Smith to him. He hates him. I've known the guy for years but we've been pretty good pals for the last 5 or 6 and talked about music a lot and yet I still can't predict what he's going to like.

[rockinrobby]

"crap from bands like the Starship, KC and the Sunshine Band, Boston, and such. " Now wait a minute, Boston was pretty good?

 

Durring an interview, KC was asked, "why do you write such boring and repetitive songs?" and he replied "Cause that's the way uh huh uh huh I like it uh huh uh huh"

[blue2blue]

 

Of course, lots of folks loved Boston. Heck, I liked "More Than a Feeling" the first couple times I heard it.

 

Crap is, of course, in the mind of the listener, just like excellence.

 

We can erect various aesthetic or performance criteria against which to measure a given piece of work, but those are, ultimately, quite narrow, abstract, and, amazingly often, irrelevant to whether or now we may actually enjoy a given work.

[kurdy]

I

[kurdy]

I would have loved to have written Sad Eyes. Except I despise the premise. Looks like it's over, you knew I couldn't stay She's coming home today and... Try to remember the magic that we shared In time your broken heart will mend I never used you, you knew I really cared. I hate to see it have to end Not only is it lame writing, but the premise itself, "Hey, I reamed you silly but we agreed, right? Don't cry!" That's stupid. But strip away the sappy production, take away the trendy at the time falsetto verses, and you have a solid pop melody. And a great chorus. Which is why the song did so well. So... frankly... the sarcastic OP? I agree to some extent. I believe we could all use some work polishing up our melody skills. Wh...oa.... ow.... {censored}! I just fell of my soapbox.

 

A little bit of trivia: the song was actually written and rewritten for three months at the request of RJ's producer. I'm guessing, was it not for the producer's input, the final draft of the song may have turned out quite differently (for better or worse).

 

Incidentally, the producer was George Tobin, who went on to produce and manage '80s teen pop tart Tiffany.

[Nitro96]

 

Concentrate on writing drivel

 

 

I do,, that's why I keep it to myself..:poke:

[eeglug]

Drivel is what keeps the universe from caving in from the sheer mass of our bloated artistic pretensions.

[Lee Knight]

A little bit of trivia: the song was actually written and rewritten for three months at the request of RJ's producer. I'm guessing, was it not for the producer's input, the final draft of the song may have turned out quite differently (for better or worse). Incidentally, the producer was George Tobin, who went on to produce and manage '80s teen pop tart Tiffany.

 

Interesting. That theme of infidelity was big in the 70's. I mean, infidelity always has been big of course, but I mean, treated in that manner.

 

Me and Mrs. Jones

If loving you is wrong... I don't wanna be right

 

And many more form that era. What absolutely rubs me the wrong way with this treatment is the premise that she has Sad Eyes, so turn the other way. You knew this time would come. Aghghghgh!

 

The others explore the turmoil of the situation. This one, he says, "don't cry, you knew she was coming back". Very nice... And it does it under the pretense of caring about her. Yeeee-ah! I believe him. He must be a real estate agent.

 

Anyway, I agree with you, I'd do it with less Maj7 chords.

 

But like I said, I admire the craft that went into the song. It's not as hack as it may appear today.

[blue2blue]

Drivel is what keeps the universe from caving in from the sheer mass of our bloated artistic pretensions.

Somehow, that reminds me of the cover of Bill Cosby's (first?) album, "Why Is There Air?" (In the cover photo he's holding a volleyball.)

 

Everything in this universe has its role.

 

[blue2blue]

Interesting. That theme of infidelity was big in the 70's. I mean, infidelity always has been big of course, but I mean, treated in that manner. Me and Mrs. Jones If loving you is wrong... I don't wanna be right And many more form that era. What absolutely rubs me the wrong way with this treatment is the premise that she has Sad Eyes, so turn the other way. You knew this time would come. Aghghghgh! The others explore the turmoil of the situation. This one, he says, "don't cry, you knew she was coming back". Very nice... And it does it under the pretense of caring about her. Yeeee-ah! I believe him. He must be a real estate agent. Anyway, I agree with you, I'd do it with less Maj7 chords. But like I said, I admire the craft that went into the song. It's not as hack as it may appear today.

This sums up my thoughts about the lyric content precisely. I was so horrified by the video montage I never got much past that but... yeah.

 

I'd say that the difference between 70s cheating songs and those that came and went before is that many of the 70s songs are pro-cheating... pro-one-night-stand, pro-libertinism. Ditto a lot of movies from the late 60s and early 70s.

 

The hippies were talking about free love -- but when it filtered down to the used car salesmen and real estate agents, the message was turned upside down to guilt-free selfishness and a sort of sexual greed.

 

That said, "If Loving You Is Wrong" is such a terrific song... I hated that style at the time but I had to admit the song really nailed the desperately romantic side of cheating. That said, it's that desperate romanticism that seemed to give some folks the license to do whatever they felt like. I remember one GF repeatedly messing me around (and I'm not one of those guys who thinks people went out of their ways to mess him around; much the contrary) and saying, with complete sincerity, after once again throwing me away and then begging me to come back, "I couldn't help myself. I have to be true to my emotions!" Uh huh. (She's OK, now, a settled-down, seemingly happy housewife. Some people do change.)

[Lee Knight]

 

This sums up my thoughts about the lyric content precisely. I was so horrified by the video montage I never got much past that but... yeah . I'd say that the difference between 70s cheating songs and those that came and went before is that many of the 70s songs are pro-cheating ... pro-one-night-stand, pro-libertinism. Ditto a lot of movies from the late 60s and early 70s. The hippies were talking about free love -- but when it filtered down to the used car salesmen and real estate agents, the message was turned upside down to guilt-free selfishness and a sort of sexual greed . That said, "If Loving You Is Wrong" is such a terrific song... I hated that style at the time but I had to admit the song really nailed the desperately romantic side of cheating. That said , it's that desperate romanticism that seemed to give some folks the license to do whatever they felt like. I remember one GF repeatedly messing me around (and I'm not one of those guys who thinks people went out of their ways to mess him around; much the contrary) and saying, with complete sincerity, after once again throwing me away and then begging me to come back, "I couldn't help myself. I have to be true to my emotions!" Uh huh. (She's OK, now, a settled-down, seemingly happy housewife. Some people do change.)

 

 

That was a great post there, Mr. Blue. What makes those other R & B cheating songs so powerful, was love. They're talking about love. This damn situation we're in, and I love you. You know, that romantic turmoil made for some heavy emotion.

 

I'm not pro-cheating, of course. It just made for good drama and reflected a situation I imagine lots of folks we're dealing with in the aftermath of free love.

 

Yeah, the used car salesman approach? Ick.