question on songwriting credibility

[Guitarfreak911]

Sup guys,

 

I just wanted to get some opinions on this. How much does assembling a song (determining its structure), with already predetermined music, count for in the songwriting process? For example, if I write all the music to a song and then determine the structure of the song with someone else's help, would that mean I am mainly the primary songwriter or I am just the composer of the song? Just need some clarification on what 'songwriting' really means. Thanks.

[Oswlek]

More details, please.

 

How do you define "determine its structure" is this a time thing? Or a lyric thing? Or a melody?

[Stackabones]

Lyrics and melodies get primary consideration when filing for copyright registration. It sounds like you are talking about arrangements, and I'm not certain about that but I don't think it quite gets the same considerations. To be honest, I don't think there is a difference between primary songwriter and composer. Has someone lead you to this assumption?

 

As the primary songwriter, you can determine what kind of deal your songwriting/arranging/band mates get.

 

For more info (if you are in the US) ...

http://www.copyright.gov/

[Guitarfreak911]

 

More details, please. How do you define "determine its structure" is this a time thing? Or a lyric thing? Or a melody?

 

 

I am referring to any melodies in the song. Well say I have all the music written down (e.g. intro, verse, chorus, interlude, etc). So its like a have 5 riffs with vocals but I do not know the order in which I will play them in yet. I know which riffs will be what (e.g. riff 1 will be the intro) but what I do not know yet is the structure. So let's say I don't know how long each section is, how many times each appears and where. I seek the aid of my band mate and he helps me assemble these riffs in the best possible way.

[Oswlek]

 

I am referring to any melodies in the song. Well say I have all the music written down (e.g. intro, verse, chorus, interlude, etc). So its like a have 5 riffs with vocals but I do not know the order in which I will play them in yet. I know which riffs will be what (e.g. riff 1 will be the intro) but what I do not know yet is the structure. So let's say I don't know how long each section is, how many times each appears and where. I seek the aid of my band mate and he helps me assemble these riffs in the best possible way.

 

 

Based solely one what you say (where and when to place riffs, but the lyrics and structure of the song is done beforehand) then you are the writer.

[Guitarfreak911]

 

Based solely one what you say (where and when to place riffs, but the lyrics and structure of the song is done beforehand) then you are the writer.

 

 

No that is not what I meant. I apologize, I realize I did not explain it properly probably because my method of writing songs with my band is confusing haha. Let's leave the vocals out of this, I just want to focus on the instruments. So for Song A, this is how the song was written. Step 1: I wrote the guitar work first. Step 2: I assembled it all into a complete structure with help from my bandmate. So far this means the whole song structure was figured out without the vocals. My bandmate helped me figure out where the intros, verses, choruses, interludes, etc. will be, how long, and how often. So I am referring to what my credibility is up to this point. I hope I explained it better this time around.

[rsadasiv]

I don't understand the way you are using the word credibility?

 

As a matter of band politics, you should share credit with the bandmate who helped you turn your collection of riffs into a coherent song.

[Stackabones]

 

I don't understand the way you are using the word credibility?

 

 

I suspect that there's a mix up between credit and credible.

 

If you can't figure out how to structure your own songs and you need/rely on your bandmates input, then offer songwriting credit. It seems the decent thing to do.

 

If you think that there will be millions of dollars in royalties involved, then hire a copyright attorney to draw up the papers -- or hire a business manager to deal with it. Otherwise, don't get too worked up about it and share the credit.

[ChordGirl]

Technically, the writer of the lyrics plus melody is the songwriter, in 99% of cases. However, in your situation, I think you should offer writing credits to your bandmates as well. I always bring in lyrics, melody, and chord structure, and I have no problem claiming 100% credit for writing the song. But, if the band was involved in structuring it in any other way than arranging it (meaning, for example, we added 4 bars as an instrumental here, but they were based on my original structure), I personally would credit them as well. If the song can stand alone and be played solo, I feel it's a complete song. That's just my take on it, though. A lot of original bands share all writing credit. I, however, take my songs to the next band and let them make up their individual parts without hearing the previous band's contributions. It's still my song the way I see it. If the 'right' band came along, I'm sure I'd share credits just to cement the band.

 

A couple of times there have been mild disputes about credit. To me, if the band wants credit, they can do what I do, which is write lyrics, melody, and chord structures. But no one has stepped up to the plate and done that as of yet, except one project where we had 3 distinct writers. We each got credit for what we wrote, and added individual parts to each other's songs. I loved that band.

[Chicken Monkey]

If you need the other person, give them credit. If you don't need them, don't use them. Not quite what the copyright office has to say, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

[Stackabones]

 

If you need the other person, give them credit. If you don't need them, don't use them. Not quite what the copyright office has to say, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

 

 

+1 Excellent!

[Lee Knight]

If you need the other person, give them credit. If you don't need them, don't use them. Not quite what the copyright office has to say, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

 

 

...and it's a hell of a lot of fun getting help too. Or helping. Either way. It's great when you can foster a relationship with another writer where you both let your guard down and share the load and the credit. If that's what you've got, lucky you.

[ChordGirl]

 

If you need the other person, give them credit. If you don't need them, don't use them. Not quite what the copyright office has to say, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

 

 

This.

 

 

 

I will add though, that some people will ask to share writing credit if they've added a riff to your completed song. That's where I draw my line, pretty much. Like I said before, if you want writing credits, contribute something valuable to the lyrics, melody, or chord structure. It's something I spend a lot of time doing, and I am not willing to share that credit with someone that spent 3 minutes to 1/2 an hour finding a complimentary part.

[Matximus]

People make songwriting credit and copyright stuff way more complicated than it needs to be. Yes, it can be legally complex.

 

But use common sense. If someone helped you make a song give them credit. Because: People Don't Do {censored} For Free and Nobody Likes a Selfish Goober.

 

If someone drives you to the big game, the proper thing to do is slip them a couple bucks for gas or buy them a beer. If somebody helps you move, your job is to pick up lunch or help them paint their house when they ask.

 

I'm not saying this to the OP necessarily but to people in general that get angsty about songwriting credit - but if someone helps you finish your song than the proper thing to do is give them credit. Because, who are you? Bob Dylan? Mozart? No? Then suck it up and say thanks by acknowledging your collaborater.

 

Because 1) 99.9% of original works have no market value. So 2) Getting bent out of shape over who owns it is a silly waste of time and energy.

 

So the only thing a song credit will actually cost you is a little bit of pride. And you just may earn a reputation as a gracious creative partner, which could have clear tangible value if you enjoy playing music with other people and gigging.

 

Also, as Lennon/McCartney showed, being generous with shared credit can be an awesome foundation for a thriving musical partnership.

[rockinrobby]

I would tell the other person it was my song, and if they disagreed, I would kill them. Anybody want to colab?