Your lyric writing--fiction, non-fiction, both or neither?

[StreakerOfinsky]

I've occasionally run into folks who seem to not realize--or sometimes who even have difficulties conceptualizing--that lyrics can be written from a fictional perspective.

 

When I've written lyrics that could be taken as real-life claims about the world, about events, about emotions, about outlooks/views, etc., they've probably more often than not been fiction. Occasionally, they haven't been, though, so my answer for those lyrics would be "both", they've been fiction (primarily) and non-fiction.

 

In recent years, my answer should probably be more "neither", however, as my recent lyrics have tended to not be anything that could be taken as claims about the world, etc. They've more often been kinda absurdist, nonsensical and/or formalist--the latter being more about the sounds and rhythms of the language.

 

So how about you?

[Lee Knight]

I do both. But even when I writing from personal experience I'll often change a fact just cause it makes for better story.

 

So, I'm not in the least bit married to the concept of the true confessional. I'm more married to the concept of good writing. Good story. Good songs. Real or not.

 

I mean, Eleanore Rigby really didn't pick at the rice at the church where a wedding has been as far as I know...

[nuclear arsenal]

most of my songs parallel my reality, but do not document it.

[Khem1cal]

Both as the person above stated.

 

Fictional stories I write are mostly about murder, rape, sodomy, incest, etc(Forgive me, I don't write pop tunes )

 

Non-Fiction same subjects as the fictional ones but even more morbid cause they're true!

 

I try to make the fictional ones as over the top as possible but sometimes the non-fictional ones are just flat out twisted and can't be topped.

 

I get most my inspiration from news clippings, documentaries, etc.

[SomeoneYouKnew]

 

I do both. But even when I writing from personal experience I'll often change a fact just cause it makes for better story. So, I'm not in the least bit married to the concept of the true confessional. I'm more married to the concept of good writing. Good story. Good songs. Real or not. I mean, Eleanore Rigby really didn't pick at the rice at the church where a wedding has been as far as I know...

Sure. But I've gone far past just changing a single fact. Whether based in reality of fiction, I've sometimes set out to tell one story and wrote it out. Then when looking at how it sit on the page, was dissatisfied with it overall. But there might be a section or two that stood out.

 

More than once, I've Frankensteined a piece like that, keeping just those stand out sections and writing the rest of the story around them. The finished work bore little resemblance to what I originally set out to say.

[M Einstein]

Both

[SomeoneYouKnew]

Both

They say brevity is the soul of wit.

But when it's that brief, it's more like the sole of wit.

 

 

Seriously, feel free to elaborate a bit.

[blue2blue]

 

I've occasionally run into folks who seem to not realize--or sometimes who even have difficulties conceptualizing --that lyrics can be written from a fictional perspective. When I've written lyrics that could be taken as real-life claims about the world, about events, about emotions, about outlooks/views, etc., they've probably more often than not been fiction. Occasionally, they haven't been, though, so my answer for those lyrics would be "both", they've been fiction (primarily) and non-fiction. In recent years, my answer should probably be more "neither", however, as my recent lyrics have tended to not be anything that could be taken as claims about the world, etc. They've more often been kinda absurdist, nonsensical and/or formalist--the latter being more about the sounds and rhythms of the language. So how about you?

All my songs are fictional, though most are rooted in some fashion in the real lives of myself or people I've known. One exception would be -- might be -- a song I wrote from the point of view of (in the fictive world of the song) the last surviving member of the assasination team that killed Kennedy (that would be John... I always have to stop myself and add that qualifier since Robert was killed only 5 years later... talk about coincidence, huh?) Anyhow, in the song, the protagonist is drinking in a bar someplace lost in the third world, musing that one of these days a hit team will take out him, removing the final witness. (In the song, in the song.)

 

Anyhow, needless to say, that's a fictional character...

 

... however, I was using him to express a certain thing I was feeling.

 

And that's how a lot of my songs are... the incidents may be fictional or intentionally distorted, sometimes exaggerated -- and sometimes quite muted, since there are a number of incidents and coincidences in my life that would probably seem over the top or improbably in a song.

[travis coats]

 

Both as the person above stated. Fictional stories I write are mostly about murder, rape, sodomy, incest, etc(Forgive me, I don't write pop tunes ) Non-Fiction same subjects as the fictional ones but even more morbid cause they're true! I try to make the fictional ones as over the top as possible but sometimes the non-fictional ones are just flat out twisted and can't be topped. I get most my inspiration from news clippings, documentaries, etc.

 

 

I am the same way. Almost all of my songs are fictional. I draw heavy reserves of inspiration from the grotesque and immoral. I also tend to use very deep philosophical/religious themes dabbling on the occult in my work. I never seem to run out of adventure exploring that side of myself.

 

However, I tend to elaborate and glorify events in my life to suit a fictional style of writing. I guess I could say I write to my reactions of real emotion in a very fantastic and ethereal way.

[Elias Graves]

The soul of a song must tell the truth or it has no meaning. The story used to illustrate that truth may or may not contain elemnts of reality.

 

EG

[samtrips]

I've occasionally run into folks who seem to not realize--or sometimes who even have difficulties conceptualizing --that lyrics can be written from a fictional perspective.

 

Is that me in the rapper's thread

 

What I mainly meant there was why bother making up all this stuff you know nothing about that is ultimately only serving to be offensive? If you don't believe in it yourself, why would someone else? Fiction writers still have to believe in their fictional world in order to realise the characters in their imagination, surely. They make the world real within pages of the book.

 

Fiction is frequently used to comment on real-life events - the whole literary fiction genre pretty much prides itself on having something to say about the world, albeit clothed in a fictional form. The key is having something to say. Making up something offensive then defending it by saying it's fiction doesn't stop it from being ultimately pointless. I personally am of the opinion that this world we're living in has enough negativity without adding to the pile simply for shock value.

 

I write from both fictional and real perspectives, and blur the boundaries everywhere between. What Lee says about changing little details is a good thing to do if you're worried it's getting too specific (and someone you know might spot it!). I don't have a problem with fiction in lyrics, I adore story songs for example, it's just when something is made up for the express purpose of being shocking, yet is underwritten, has no clear aim or purpose and ultimately doesn't even achieve it's goal.

[Marshal]

I'm a bote-of-'em guy. Usually at the same time. When I make up a fictional story it's always "informed" by some real life parallel situation I know of or experienced. And when I write about some actual occurrence I always bend the story (selective inclusion/exclusion) to support an idea.

 

A song is not a documentary.

[LeonardScaper]

 

The soul of a song must tell the truth or it has no meaning.

 

 

I like that.

 

It seems as though my songs are all pretty personal. I write from my own soul in an attempt to get those feelings out into the open, for better or for worse. Most, if not all, of my songs are built around a nucleus of fact.....something that I have either experienced or felt. I guess that part would be non-fiction.

 

In the process, however, I bring in fictional characters and storylines as tools to help me take the song to where it needs to go.

[StreakerOfinsky]

Is that me in the rapper's thread

That's what catalyzed the thread, but I've run into it in many times, and in many different guises over the years. You were just talking about that one example, but I've known people who seem to have trouble even conceptualizing that one could be writing fictitious lyrics. That has always struck me as odd, because in my experience--and that seems to gel with this thread so far, too, most lyricists are writing from a fictitious stance, or from the perspective of a fictitious character, at least as much as they're writing personal confessionals, as they might in a diary or something.

What I mainly meant there was why bother making up all this stuff you know nothing about

In prose fiction writing, advice is often given to "write what you know". My response is always, "One of the things that I know the best is my imagination"--so whatever I write as fiction is something I know as my imaginings, how my mind works, etc. I would think that would apply there, too.

that is ultimately only serving to be offensive?

I've got a whole spiel about why I'm pro people being offensive, but I'll save that for another thread.

If you don't believe in it yourself, why would someone else? Fiction writers still have to believe in their fictional world in order to realise the characters in their imagination, surely. They make the world real within pages of the book.

I write prose fiction, too, and I do not agree with this. I've often meant to do a fairly detailed study of the history of the "suspension of disbelief" idea . . . unforunately, I haven't got around to it yet, lol. (It would be useful because I write non-fiction, as well. I have a background in philosophy, with aesthetics as one of my areas of specialty, so researching the history of that idea would be useful there.)

 

The reason I've been curious to research it though is because I feel that parsing any of it, either from the author or the reader's side, as being about belief is misconceived and has done a great disservice to thinking about fictions. My suspicion is that originally the phrase arose from the idea that with fictions, we're not going to apply the same criteria that we'd apply to interacting with non-fiction. We're going to put our disbelief aside and simply interact with it in an "as if" way. Somewhere along the line, though, people started parsing "suspension of disbelief" as implying that we're going to believe fictions instead, or that they should have a high degree of believability. The only way that "belief" should enter it is that we're going to "make believe"--pretend that whatever is presented is the case.

 

By the way, the misconceptions also have mutated into an expectation that if one refers to something that exists in the actual world, one is going to keep it as it is in the actual world. To me, that expectation is indicative of not getting fictions.

Fiction is frequently used to comment on real-life events

It is definitely the case that it is frequently used in that way, yes. But it is not necessarily the case, and there is no requirement that anything be literally believed for it to be the case. Requiring that would again be not getting fictions.

the whole literary fiction genre pretty much prides itself on having something to say about the world, albeit clothed in a fictional form.

I'd say that many authors and critics/scholars, etc. have had that stance, but not the whole enterprise.

Making up something offensive then defending it by saying it's fiction doesn't stop it from being ultimately pointless.

Points are subjective.

I personally am of the opinion that this world we're living in has enough negativity without adding to the pile simply for shock value.

I see "shock" as valuable in a positive way instead. I see getting offended as the negative.

has no clear aim or purpose and ultimately doesn't even achieve it's goal.

I do not agree that writing itself has aims or purposes, people do. I also buy the intentional fallacy, by the way.

[Matximus]

Confessional writing is mostly for for teenagers and self-absorbed people that refuse to grow up. It's got its uses. But you really shouldn't be indulging in that kind of stuff if you're older than 24 or so. As you get older you should start realizing that nobody really gives a crap about your deep thoughts and feelings about a thing.

 

I find it's best to work from a place that understands that people like good stories; it doesn't matter if they're true or not. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

Also, lies are often more interesting and illuminating than the truth.

[Elias Graves]

Rock and roll and the singer/songwriter genres have often touted "truth" as the cornerstones of songwriting. If it's not real, then you're a phony, so to speak.

This, I believe, has led to a widespread perception that songs need to be "real" to be "real."

I'm a believer that a song needs to communicate a truth, however, the vehicle used to convey that truth may not be based on newspaper accuracy of events. I don't think that makes it any less real.

 

Songwriting, for a while now, has been based on one upsmanship. I can be louder, raunchier, more offensive, more graphic than the last guy.

Rock n roll to heavy metal to death metal have been exercises in this escalation.

Perhaps this is why we are seeing a growing trend in "roots" and "back to basics" songwriting. Maybe people are finally understanding that bigger isn't always better. The loud/offensive factor has been pushed so far that many listeners have been numbed by it to the point where no amount of volume or no extreme of depravity gets them off anymore.

You reach a point where size no longer impresses.

 

Truth, on the other hand, can nearly always grab people. Trying to remember that the truth you are trying to convey is the point...not the images used to depict it.

 

You have a point, though. When someone hears a song that has personal or emotional themes, the assumption is that it's autobiographical.

I am, however, capable of telling a story without myself as the focus.

 

EG

[SomeoneYouKnew]

I'm a believer that a song needs to communicate a truth ...

That's a very powerful way of getting to the heart of the matter.

[Khem1cal]

I agree there's more to lyrics than just trying to be shocking to be shocking. However when i'm writting on dark subjects, well it's going to naturally be shocking to the maintream who are used to lovey dovey songs, or I broke up with my girlfriend/boyfriend songs, etc. When I am writing I am taking real experiences(personal or from perspective) and maybe twisting them up a little to save names or to simply "spice it up" although fiction or not my lyrics are grounded in some type of true event.

 

for example the newest song I played around with is "Sex With A Cadaver" and it is about a necrophiliac/Cannibal who kills,rapes, & eats his partner(in that order), it's based on a true story, but I spare names & places, etc and keep it informal. You can listen to a (very)rough draft on my myspace link below, the vocals are a little off in parts, cause I'm trying hard not to laugh while singing but IDK maybe i'm just morbid(which I can believe) but that should just be more proof, that it's just the way I am, so the lyrics are honest albeit not acceptable to mainstream standards. I don't do it to be shocking however, it's just what entertains me personally.

 

-here's the lyrics(It's hard to understand sometimes I know)

 

Dragged from the lake

your body I rape

So cold and stiff

I kiss on your lips

Push through your hips

Maggots on D***

 

Chorus:

 

Rape

Your bodies raped

Raped

Your bodies raped

Rape

Your bodies raped

 

In love with your taste

Better than faith

I believe this is fate

Forever my mate

Down by the lake

I eat you like cake

[Matximus]

I'll say this about the raping cadaver thing - you did a lot right right in your approach, actually. I like that it's simple and straightforward; A lot of writers go off on tangents about useless stuff. Try to say too many things and try and make something more than it is. You didn't make any of those blunders. I applaud that.

 

Somebody drags a body out of a lake and has sex with it.

 

The main change I'd advocate is ditching the reference to "rape." I'm not sure if sex with a cadaver is actually rape. And since your clearly committed to making a straight account of the situation you might want to clear that up. Also, rape is just so boringly offense.

 

"Cake

Eat You Like Cake"

 

Seems like it would fit and place emphasis on an even more disturbing image: Is this cat going down on a corpse? Now that is some disturbing stuff right there. Sex with a cadaver - I understand the motivation there. THe other thing - that tells you we're dealing with a real loose screw.

[Khem1cal]

Thanks for your critique I truly appreciate any critiques good and bad. I'll try to work in the cake line instead of rape and see how it fits, I'll have re-work the eat you like cake line too. Don't want it in the chorus and verse.

 

Thans for the tips!

[Matximus]

You know - I just listened to the track on Myspace. Scratch what I said before - that Rape thing works. Sometimes things don't read good but sound good. The sound is what matters. And That is some disturbing stuff, dude. I mean - creepy like crazy.

 

I'm gonna have a hard time sleeping tonight...

 

I'd never listen to this music type of music for pleasure. But I appreciate that you follow through on the concept on every level. It's true to itself - which is right on!

[Khem1cal]

You know - I just listened to the track on Myspace. Scratch what I said before - that Rape thing works. Sometimes things don't read good but sound good. The sound is what matters. And That is some disturbing stuff, dude. I mean - creepy like crazy. I'm gonna have a hard time sleeping tonight... I'd never listen to this music type of music for pleasure. But I appreciate that you follow through on the concept on every level. It's true to itself - which is right on!

 

Thanks man! I know it's not for everyone, hell my real project(all the other songs on there) is nothing like that, it's more for a general audience, but heavy all the same. I know my music will never be mainstream(even the "lighter" materials) but I love doing it.

 

You having trouble to sleep makes me happy, cause I know I did my job!

[blue2blue]

I had posted a bit of a rant about shock/ultra-violent-sexual content here last night but then thought twice that maybe I wasn't providing the best example in terms of keeping the discussion dispassionate and, further, didn't want anyone to think that I was writing that rant in any direct way related to my moderating duties here in the SW Forum.

 

But, on consideration, I decided that those personal sensibilities might still have some pertinence to the discussion, so I moved them offsite. Anyone interested can read them here: Rant.