Members Zephyrside Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 Hey guys, I've seen in interviews with bands that have blown up lately and the singers will often mention "studying 100s of the top songs and learning their "secrets."" What exactly does that mean? Is it chord progressions? The tones? The lyrics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 I wouldn't care to conjecture on what they mean. What I've done personally, though, is study the underlying structures or templates of songs I like. I'm also interested in understanding where and how a pattern is set up, and how it gets broken or becomes varied in some way. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 Honestly, I'd say there are different "secrets" for different genres. I wouldn't really call them secrets though. There are plenty of books on song writing that cover all different types of song writing techniques, which is what these "secrets" really are. If not that, then they are right there in the song for anybody to figure out. "Secrets" is a word I would use if I wanted to make myself sound more important or if I didn't actually do any of the writing (but maybe just got a writing credit) so I don't understand what is going on in a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think engineer/producers sometimes keep some 'secrets' (let's not forget how the engineer who first used hard vocal retuning for the "Cher Effect" for many years later maintained the fiction that they'd used a complex combination of vocoder and pitch shifting and some other stuff when, in reality, pretty much all he did was be the first to over-crank the then-brand-new AutoTune into robo-speak land)... but songwriters seem pretty generous with tips and techniques of their craft. And maybe that's because, while knowing the 'trick' behind some production effect means you will thenceforth be capable of duplicating it, knowing the techniques behind some sublimely wonderful song will not, by itself, mean you can then crank out such sublimely wonderful songs at will. Anyhow, as others have suggested, there are techniques that go into the craft of songwriting -- and knowing, practicing, and improving one's grasp of those techniques will very likely improve one's craft... but it's not all about knowing the rules and following them -- by a long stretch. Every song, like every painting, is potentially different in the way it evolves and expresses its inner truths. Technique without some form of inspiration, however, typically feels like an empty exercise. Some of us actively seek and often find inspiration; others -- perhaps feeling that all too often in their experience inspiration is something elusive and ephemeral, something that doesn't bend to the will but rather runs from it -- may feel that, for them, inspiration is too easy to chase away in active pursuit and take a more seemingly passive approach. (I often find myself in this latter group -- but often worried that passivity is almost as counterproductive as 'trying too hard.') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted March 20, 2012 Members Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think engineer/producers sometimes keep some 'secrets' (let's not forget how the engineer who first used hard vocal retuning for the "Cher Effect" for many years later maintained the fiction that they'd used a complex combination of vocoder and pitch shifting and some other stuff when, in reality, pretty much all he did was be the first to over-crank the then-brand-new AutoTune into robo-speak land)... but songwriters seem pretty generous with tips and techniques of their craft.And maybe that's because, while knowing the 'trick' behind some production effect means you will thenceforth be capable of duplicating it, knowing the techniques behind some sublimely wonderful song will not, by itself, mean you can then crank out such sublimely wonderful songs at will.Anyhow, as others have suggested, there are techniques that go into the craft of songwriting -- and knowing, practicing, and improving one's grasp of those techniques will very likely improve one's craft... but it's not all about knowing the rules and following them -- by a long stretch. Every song, like every painting, is potentially different in the way it evolves and expresses its inner truths. Technique without some form of inspiration, however, typically feels like an empty exercise. Some of us actively seek and often find inspiration; others -- perhaps feeling that all too often in their experience inspiration is something elusive and ephemeral, something that doesn't bend to the will but rather runs from it -- may feel that, for them, inspiration is too easy to chase away in active pursuit and take a more seemingly passive approach. (I often find myself in this latter group -- but often worried that passivity is almost as counterproductive as 'trying too hard.') That's a good example with the "Cher Effect." I don't really think of that as songwriting. Although, it is hard to imagine that song with out it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted March 21, 2012 Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 That's a good example with the "Cher Effect." I don't really think of that as songwriting. Although, it is hard to imagine that song with out it.What song? Imagine it? I can't even remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted March 21, 2012 Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 By the way, on considering my (long) post above, I think, there at the end, I should have written: ...often worried that passivity is even more counterproductive than 'trying too hard.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dramey Posted March 21, 2012 Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 What song? Imagine it? I can't even remember it. Wasn't that the one where she wore something skanky in the video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zephyrside Posted March 21, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 What I've done personally, though, is study the underlying structures or templates of songs I like.LCK Sorry I guess thats more what I meant. I'm new to songwriting technique... I know I"m not going to find "the secret" and suddenly be able to write hit songs. I'm more just curious as to what they mean when they say study a song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted March 21, 2012 Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 what they mean when they say study a song. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2862749-Friday-Influences-Thread-01-06-12!!!&p=44775693&viewfull=1#post44775693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 21, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2012 ^ hah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted March 21, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 21, 2012 Sorry I guess thats more what I meant. I'm new to songwriting technique... I know I"m not going to find "the secret" and suddenly be able to write hit songs. I'm more just curious as to what they mean when they say study a song. "what they mean when they say study a song" They mean lots of things. And in all reality, you are not going to be able to do it all right away. You have to find enjoyment in the first steps of "studying a song". Some call it "analysis". It is analysis but that feels stodgy. And I don't feel stodgy when I'm taking apart a song to look at and see how it works. It's fun, not science. Ok... so what are you studying? For starters, structure. Listen to a song and identify the song sections. -When does the first verse start? -When odes the chorus start? -How many bars are each section? -How long is the intro?-Does the solo or instrumental section play over the same chords of an earlier section?-How many verses? All these little questions are a lot of fun to answer. You just get out a pad and pencil and start. Counts bars and identify sections... Intro 4 barsV1 8 barsC1 16 barsChorus tag 2 barsV2 8 bars... etc. Now, when you're ready to move on, (but there's plenty to learn just by this step) you can start filling in the sections with the chords. Lyrics. How and when do the lyrics repeat through the various sections. Are the lyrics conversation or more impressionistic? What are the rhyme patterns for each section (rhyme scheme)? How these things either heighten or detract from the emotional thrust of the song. Where is the highest note in the song? Where's the lowest? Do the sections, verse vs. chorus, contrast from each other? How so? Form a major to a minor? Maybe a key change? The singer moves up to a higher register? The notes come in quicker succession that the previous section? You can go as deep as you want. A lot of people think it's absolutely sacrilegious to analyze songs. Too clinical and not artistic enough. But... I think it too much fun not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted March 21, 2012 Members Share Posted March 21, 2012 What song? Imagine it? I can't even remember it. Do you belieeeve in life after love? Or something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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