Members Ripfence Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Problem is you have to be found guilty of a crime or violation that merits the fine. As far as I know no private party can force an illegal contract upon anyone. That means the contract has to abide by the laws in place, not make up new ones. You can be sued for breech of contract and a judgment can be levied against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duke Spinner Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 The HOA can't force him to remove it unless it violates municipality guidelines. If he's broken no "law" or ordinance as the city or county or governing body sees it than it's a civil suit and they can't force him to do {censored} with his property. he signed a Contract its enforceable besides, its not really his property , anywayswe all really just are renters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 The bill of rights is applicable anywhere you as a civilian have interaction with your government. Doesn't matter if it's the school board or the Border Patrol. I agree that if a judge orders him to take it down he can be found in contempt if he doesn't comply. Although the smart play would be to have his counsel file to stay the decision pending appeal and appeal it which would tie the case up. If he files it as a civil rights case he'll most likely win IMO. Nobody wants to rule against someone who's paid their dues in the way this man has when it come's to something so petty. I don't think he would win a civil rights suit. A homeowner's association, as has already been established, is not a unit of government. Presumably, he knowingly signed a contract with the homeowner's association, which he must abide by or face sanctions in civil court. If he didn't agree with the HOA's rules, he could have moved into another neighborhood, yet he chose to move into this one. Again, it has nothing to do with any civil right. Furthermore, the fact that he is a hero does not give him carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 You are confusing criminal law with civil law. My only point is that here in Oregon at least, the City courts won't fine you unless you're breaking a city ordinance. This is IMO the way it should be. HOA's can take you to court all they want but the city is the actual vehicle for fining people, not the HOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 You can be sued for breech of contract and a judgment can be levied against you. Actually, it said in the article that nowhere in the original contract does it cover flagpoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clay_finley Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Actually, I believe if a judge orders him to take it down because he is in breach of contract (as a result of a civil suit), he would face sanctions for violating a court order. Also, fairly toothless... Get a court date months in advance because you violated a court order. Judge warns you and gives you a chance to fix it (since you are a medal of honor holder) and a deadline. Another court date comes up when the deadline expires. The whole process could take years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 The bill of rights is applicable anywhere you as a civilian have interaction with your government. Doesn't matter if it's the school board or the Border Patrol. I agree that if a judge orders him to take it down he can be found in contempt if he doesn't comply. Although the smart play would be to have his counsel file to stay the decision pending appeal and appeal it which would tie the case up. If he files it as a civil rights case he'll most likely win IMO. Nobody wants to rule against someone who's paid their dues in the way this man has when it come's to something so petty. An HOA is not a government entity. Even better, if he takes the HOA to court, guess where the association gets its money from? That's right, from dues. Your neighbors are gonna be real happy to know that their money is going to defend against you in court because you wanted a flagpole. They'll be even happier when the HOA says they can't afford to reroof the houses for another few years because they spent all the money on legal fees. Best thing to do? Make a stink. Get yourself elected to the board, and stand up to them. The reasons HOAs get away with crap like this is because no cares enough to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clay_finley Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Actually, it said in the article that nowhere in the original contract does it cover flagpoles. Yes, great point. It's very subjective. Easier to fight in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Actually, it said in the article that nowhere in the original contract does it cover flagpoles. I would imagine there is some sort of "catch-all" clause which would cover situations not specifically addressed in the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clay_finley Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I don't think he would win a civil rights suit. A homeowner's association, as has already been established, is not a unit of government. Presumably, he knowingly signed a contract with the homeowner's association, which he must abide by or face sanctions in civil court. If he didn't agree with the HOA's rules, he could have moved into another neighborhood, yet he chose to move into this one. Again, it has nothing to do with any civil right.Furthermore, the fact that he is a hero does not give him carte blanche to do whatever he wants. True, but the fact remains that the HOA is being a dick for doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members co&cafan808 Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 You can be sued for breech of contract and a judgment can be levied against you. Yep, this can happen also for not paying your dues. My neighbor found out the hard way when he got his small buisness loan, he had forgotten to pay his dues the previous year and a judgement was filed against his house. Anyway, {censored} all HOA's right up the ass and if I was him I would not take that flag down for anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 True, but the fact remains that the HOA is being a dick for doing this. I'm not defending the HOA. I think HOA's are {censored}ing stupid. That doesn't matter in the context of this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clay_finley Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 ... and if I was him I would not take that flag down for anybody. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I would imagine there is some sort of "catch-all" clause which would cover situations not specifically addressed in the contract. Contract law is a bitch. If you intend to go to court on a breach of contract and the contract is vague at all the judge will usually throw it out. (I've gone to court a few times over contracts that were potentially damaging and very poorly written affecting my life) There's a bunch of responsibilities both sides have to meet in a contract for it to be valid in court. I suspect that in a case like this, the judge would rule in a compromise. Probably relocate the flagpole down to the big well lit sign that proclaims the name of the subdivision and allow the defendant to perform his colors ceremony there every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clay_finley Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Contract law is a bitch. If you intend to go to court on a breach of contract and the contract is vague at all the judge will usually throw it out. (I've gone to court a few times over contracts that were potentially damaging and very poorly written affecting my life) There's a bunch of responsibilities both sides have to meet in a contract for it to be valid in court. I suspect that in a case like this, the judge would rule in a compromise. Probably relocate the flagpole down to the big well lit sign that proclaims the name of the subdivision and allow the defendant to perform his colors ceremony there every day. That's a great compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JKD Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 It'd be funnier if it was a giant penis he was erecting in the garden every day but as it stands the actual object has {censored} all to do with the contract the silly old bugger signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 That's a great compromise. Were I the judge I'd also force the chair of the board to continue to perform the colors ceremony as part of HOA duties after the gentleman dies in his honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 It'd be funnier if it was a giant penis he was erecting in the garden every day but as it stands the actual object has {censored} all to do with the contract the silly old {censored} signed. This. They are not saying he can't display the flag. The method of display is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I think he got that Medal of Honor protecting our rights to do just that.You mean South Koreans' rights to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Contract law is a bitch. If you intend to go to court on a breach of contract and the contract is vague at all the judge will usually throw it out. (I've gone to court a few times over contracts that were potentially damaging and very poorly written affecting my life)There's a bunch of responsibilities both sides have to meet in a contract for it to be valid in court. I suspect that in a case like this, the judge would rule in a compromise. Probably relocate the flagpole down to the big well lit sign that proclaims the name of the subdivision and allow the defendant to perform his colors ceremony there every day. Contract law's not so much a bitch if you understand it. So long as there is a single line saying that items not covered are then at the discretion of the HOA then he's screwed. That's what happens when you sign away rights you didn't even know you were signing away out of your own ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Contract law's not so much a bitch if you understand it. So long as there is a single line saying that items not covered are then at the discretion of the HOA then he's screwed. That's what happens when you sign away rights you didn't even know you were signing away out of your own ignorance. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VanR Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I say he should let them sue him. No judge in the country would find in their favor. He's a MOH winner for Pete's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 has {censored} all to do with the contract the silly old bugger signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members redeye5 Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Home ownsers associations should be {censored}ing illegal and are worse than communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Contract law's not so much a bitch if you understand it. So long as there is a single line saying that items not covered are then at the discretion of the HOA then he's screwed. That's what happens when you sign away rights you didn't even know you were signing away out of your own ignorance. You're right of course, but also, sort of wrong. That's what I meant about ambiguity in contracts. Anything implied has to pass the smell test. If you sign a contract that's got lots of latitude for the other party to make things up later than there are implied bounds they have to stay within. I could write a contract stating that I'm loaning so-and-so money and that it'll be paid back at such and such rate or at the lien holders discretion. If, the day after you make the loan you demand the whole thing back and take the guy to court demanding his house in damages the judge is going to throw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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