Members KCTigerChief Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 God have mercy the old time veteran that probably has 5 years left wants to display a flag in honor of his country. I would look the bitch square in the eye who was saying this and tell her to {censored} herself. You all who are bringing up the clause about "any thing else should be left up to the HOA's discretion" are full of {censored}. Yea, that clause is in there. Who in the {censored} finds a flag pole out of place? Are you {censored}ing kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous...My feelings on this would be ENTIRELY different had there been an actual CLAUSE in the contract he signed that said, "NO FLAG POLES", however there wasn't...It's just up to some overpayed bimbo to decide, "Oh that makes the other houses look out of place." Are you serious? Get the {censored} out of here. Right there in the middle of court. I'd bring all of medals, all of my war uniforms, and pictures of my friends I lost in those wars, and I would set them on the stand in plain view, look the HOA in the eyes and tell them to {censored} themselves...Then I'd tell them I would take the pole down, if they could bring back my friends who lost their lives defending the HOA freedom to decide what was offensive to them. Again, this would be different if he was breaching a contract clause he actually signed for...Too bad he didn't though... I mean seriously, the clause you all are nutting over could be used any number of ways..."Oh that lady is way to large for this community, we'll sue her for breach of contract, until she loses weight. The clause she signed saying 'anything not listed is left to our discretion' will hold this up in court"... wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I say he should let them sue him. No judge in the country would find in their favor. He's a MOH winner for Pete's sake.Yeah, no judge might, but every single court of appeals will. Circuit Judges like to make statements, Courts of Appeals go letter of the law in 99.99% of cases, unless of course we're talking about the 9th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 You're right of course, but also, sort of wrong. That's what I meant about ambiguity in contracts. Anything implied has to pass the smell test. If you sign a contract that's got lots of latitude for the other party to make things up later than there are implied bounds they have to stay within. I could write a contract stating that I'm loaning so-and-so money and that it'll be paid back at such and such rate or at the lien holders discretion. If, the day after you make the loan you demand the whole thing back and take the guy to court demanding his house in damages the judge is going to throw it out. A contract, law, policy, etc., cannot be written to cover every circumstance which may occur. That is why we have judges to interpret them. Furthermore, in civil court, cases are proven by a preponderance of the evidence, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If 51% of the evidence shows that he is in breach of the contract, then he is in breach of the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 God have mercy the old time veteran that probably has 5 years left wants to display a flag in honor of his country. I would look the bitch square in the eye who was saying this and tell her to {censored} herself. You all who are bringing up the clause about "any thing else should be left up to the HOA's discretion" are full of {censored}. Yea, that clause is in there. Who in the {censored} finds a flag pole out of place? Are you {censored}ing kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous...My feelings on this would be ENTIRELY different had there been an actual CLAUSE in the contract he signed that said, "NO FLAG POLES", however there wasn't...It's just up to some overpayed bimbo to decide, "Oh that makes the other houses look out of place." Are you serious? Get the {censored} out of here. Right there in the middle of court. I'd bring all of medals, all of my war uniforms, and pictures of my friends I lost in those wars, and I would set them on the stand in plain view, look the HOA in the eyes and tell them to {censored} themselves...Then I'd tell them I would take the pole down, if they could bring back my friends who lost their lives defending the HOA freedom to decide what was offensive to them. Again, this would be different if he was breaching a contract clause he actually signed for...Too bad he didn't though... So, if it was a Mexican American veteran, who flew a Mexican flag, or a Canadian American vet who flew a Canadian flag would you feel the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 God have mercy the old time veteran that probably has 5 years left wants to display a flag in honor of his country. I would look the bitch square in the eye who was saying this and tell her to {censored} herself. You all who are bringing up the clause about "any thing else should be left up to the HOA's discretion" are full of {censored}. Yea, that clause is in there. Who in the {censored} finds a flag pole out of place? Are you {censored}ing kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous...My feelings on this would be ENTIRELY different had there been an actual CLAUSE in the contract he signed that said, "NO FLAG POLES", however there wasn't...It's just up to some overpayed bimbo to decide, "Oh that makes the other houses look out of place." Are you serious? Get the {censored} out of here. Right there in the middle of court. I'd bring all of medals, all of my war uniforms, and pictures of my friends I lost in those wars, and I would set them on the stand in plain view, look the HOA in the eyes and tell them to {censored} themselves...Then I'd tell them I would take the pole down, if they could bring back my friends who lost their lives defending the HOA freedom to decide what was offensive to them. Again, this would be different if he was breaching a contract clause he actually signed for...Too bad he didn't though... I mean seriously, the clause you all are nutting over could be used any number of ways..."Oh that lady is way to large for this community, we'll sue her for breach of contract, until she loses weight. The clause she signed saying 'anything not listed is left to our discretion' will hold this up in court"... wow... No one's nutting over anything except you here buddy. If you had even so much as read an introductory business law book you would understand how this {censored} works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 God have mercy the old time veteran that probably has 5 years left wants to display a flag in honor of his country. I would look the bitch square in the eye who was saying this and tell her to {censored} herself. You all who are bringing up the clause about "any thing else should be left up to the HOA's discretion" are full of {censored}. Yea, that clause is in there. Who in the {censored} finds a flag pole out of place? Are you {censored}ing kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous...My feelings on this would be ENTIRELY different had there been an actual CLAUSE in the contract he signed that said, "NO FLAG POLES", however there wasn't...It's just up to some overpayed bimbo to decide, "Oh that makes the other houses look out of place." Are you serious? Get the {censored} out of here. Right there in the middle of court. I'd bring all of medals, all of my war uniforms, and pictures of my friends I lost in those wars, and I would set them on the stand in plain view, look the HOA in the eyes and tell them to {censored} themselves...Then I'd tell them I would take the pole down, if they could bring back my friends who lost their lives defending the HOA freedom to decide what was offensive to them. Again, this would be different if he was breaching a contract clause he actually signed for...Too bad he didn't though... I can only speak for myself, but, as I have already expressed, I find the whole situation deplorable as well. My first post on the matter was: "This is why I hate HOAs."That being said, several other people came along after and said that it's illegal, unenforceable, unjust, etc. Sadly, it's probably totally legal and enforceable (you never really know until it goes to court). Let that serve as a warning to everyone not to consent to HOA agreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I can only speak for myself, but, as I have already expressed, I find the whole situation deplorable as well. My first post on the matter was: "This is why I hate HOAs."That being said, several other people came along after and said that it's illegal, unenforceable, unjust, etc. Sadly, it's probably totally legal and enforceable (you never really know until it goes to court). Let that serve as a warning to everyone not to consent to HOA agreements. If you don't want to be at the mercy of an HOA, then don't move into a neighborhood governed by an HOA. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KCTigerChief Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 So, if it was a Mexican American veteran, who flew a Mexican flag, or a Canadian American vet who flew a Canadian flag would you feel the same?As long as it was flown underneath the American flag, no I wouldn't have a problem. (c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7bet you didn't even know that existed, did ya tough guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KCTigerChief Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 No one's nutting over anything except you here buddy. If you had even so much as read an introductory business law book you would understand how this {censored} works.I took 3 classes of Business Law...I know how a {censored}ing contract works...what I don't like about contracts, and even had discussions with professors in college about is that stupid "It's up to me" clause I don't live in a HOA for this very reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 If you don't want to be at the mercy of an HOA, then don't move into a neighborhood governed by an HOA. Simple. Precisely. Often enough, however, that means not getting the house or neighborhood you really want. (Ever wonder why HOA neighborhoods are so consistently nicer than others? Yeah, it's because of the HOA.) So, people cave and consent to the HOA thinking it's worth the trade-off. Well, that's what they think until they want to paint their house purple with yellow trim (at which point I think the neighbors'd be glad for the HOA stepping in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 As long as it was flown underneath the American flag, no I wouldn't have a problem. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7bet you didn't even know that existed, did ya tough guy? That has nothi.....oh, nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 You're right of course, but also, sort of wrong. That's what I meant about ambiguity in contracts. Anything implied has to pass the smell test. If you sign a contract that's got lots of latitude for the other party to make things up later than there are implied bounds they have to stay within. I could write a contract stating that I'm loaning so-and-so money and that it'll be paid back at such and such rate or at the lien holders discretion. If, the day after you make the loan you demand the whole thing back and take the guy to court demanding his house in damages the judge is going to throw it out. The situation you are using as an allegory is far removed from the reality, and the only way the courts in the end won't uphold it is if it seems they are arbitrarily using this to persecute this one gentleman. If the HOA has in the past prevented even so much as a single other member from erecting a flag pole then it will most likely stand, if they have allowed others to erect flagpoles, and/or not ordered them to remove them then it will be struck down, and the vet will win. It often all comes down to precedent, once one has been established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 As long as it was flown underneath the American flag, no I wouldn't have a problem. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7bet you didn't even know that existed, did ya tough guy? The Flag Code only applies when the US flag is flown. If just the Canadian or Mexican flag or flown none of this is applicable. Even more, there are no prescribed penalties for violating the Flag Code and the Supreme Court has previously stated it would be a violation of the first amendment to enforce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 I took 3 classes of Business Law...I know how a {censored}ing contract works...what I don't like about contracts, and even had discussions with professors in college about is that stupid "It's up to me" clause I don't live in a HOA for this very reason The "It's up to me" stuff must be reasonable though, and I don't think the flagpole issue is unreasonable in the context of the HOA. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable. I'm positive a judge would find that it was reasonable, too. Your fat lady analogy WOULD be found unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 As long as it was flown underneath the American flag, no I wouldn't have a problem. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7 bet you didn't even know that existed, did ya tough guy? First point, well what if no American flag was present, and the were a Mexican military vet, or Canadian military vet. So it was ambiguous. Second point, I don't give a {censored} about such pretensions, as nationalism and blind subservience are the worst evils in our world IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hapless Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 The situation you are using as an allegory is far removed from the reality, and the only way the courts in the end won't uphold it is if it seems they are arbitrarily using this to persecute this one gentleman. If the HOA has in the past prevented even so much as a single other member from erecting a flag pole then it will most likely stand, if they have allowed others to erect flagpoles, and/or not ordered them to remove them then it will be struck down, and the vet will win. It often all comes down to precedent, once one has been established. And as I pointed out before, if there is no precedent, and they cave and allow this gentleman to keep his flagpole, there now WILL be a precedent, and they will be hard pressed to prevent anyone who wants to from erecting a flagpole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NITROHOLIC Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 HOAs are {censored}ing crooks. {censored} those creampie felchers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 BTW, those of you thinking I'm bashing on a Korean War vet, not so, my grandfather was one, and it would warm my heart to talk to the man and see him proudly raise his flag in remembrance of his friends (who knows he may have even known my grandfather) left on the field. However, that doesn't change the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 And as I pointed out before, if there is no precedent, and they cave and allow this gentleman to keep his flagpole, there now WILL be a precedent, and they will be hard pressed to prevent anyone who wants to from erecting a flagpole. Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 HOAs are {censored}ing crooks. {censored} those creampie felchers Pure truth here folks, get it while it's hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MetalJon Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 Pure truth here folks, get it while it's hot.While what's hot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members isvoid Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 lol, thread title is right out of the "FOX NEWS HANDBOOK". Everything else has already been said. Oh, and obligatory photoshop (closest applicability from library): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 While what's hot? Well, someone did mention cream pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thenakedarab Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 lol, thread title is right out of the "FOX NEWS HANDBOOK". Everything else has already been said. Oh, and obligatory photoshop (closest applicability from library): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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