More of a song production forum than a...

[Lee Knight]

 

 

But frequently he did. Piano arrangement was a great way of testing the validity of ideas before gussying up a melody and harmony with flutes, oboes and horns. And while I'd defiantly want to to hear what he'd do with the orchestra, it would make sense to show a piano outline first.

[LordBTY]

But frequently he did. Piano arrangement was a great way of testing the validity of ideas before gussying up a melody and harmony with flutes, oboes and horns. And while I'd defiantly want to to hear what he'd do with the orchestra, it would make sense to show a piano outline first.

 

Ok, touche - you got me there. ;P

 

Even so, when I post up a song I'd like people to comment on the use of texture, dynamics, ongoing themes etc. A guitar or piano is somewhat limited in that sense. Also, for me it's easier to just program it rather than bother learning it on a piano.

 

That's my two cents, anyway.

 

Edit:

 

Also, restricting it to guitar or piano/vox could potentially alienate people who make music with instrumentation being just as significant as the lyrical/lead melodic/harmonic content. I'm mostly thinking of metal heads here.

[ido1957]

 

I think maybe there should be a broader range of things appropriate for post in here - either that or more appropriate sub forums. E.G. Completed works forum, one instrument songwriting, production/songwriting forum.

 

 

Agreed ^^^^^

[kurdy]

 

I think maybe there should be a broader range of things appropriate for post in here - either that or more appropriate sub forums.

 

 

I think there already is. There's ample room for discussion in this forum of all different aspects of the songwriting process--rough idea, all the way up through finished production. The question that was raised was should there be? Or should there be stricter rules in here as to what topics are worthy of discussion? My answer would be absolutely not--the forum is fine as is. That appears to be the sentiment of most people here...though there will always be some that disagree.

[LordBTY]

 

I think there already is. There's ample room for discussion in this forum of all different aspects of the songwriting process--rough idea, all the way up through finished production. The question that was raised was should there be? Or should there be stricter rules in here as to what topics are worthy of discussion? My answer would be absolutely not--the forum is fine as is. That appears to be the sentiment of most people here...though there will always be some that disagree.

 

 

Where? :S

[oldgitplayer]

 

This is hardly a songwriting forum. For that purpose it would require certain features of a writer's workshop - including among others evaluation of completed works - to even remotely qualify under it's current misnomer. What it is in practice is a comfortable spot for regular members to say what they want to say about writing which is usually unrelated to the subject of developing writing skills in the most academic sense of that exercise and undertaking.............. It is now a culture unto itself and I doubt new rules reworking it into a proper songwriting effort will be accepted without the typical rebuke that comes with change.

 

 

It ain't broke!

It is a culture unto itself - and a good one at that.

 

You use the word 'academic'. No - I don't think a forum can be an academy. It's a chatroom. It's a place where people can say "I've got a bit of an idea. Whattcha think?"

There is a spirit of openness and camaraderie and free exchange that stricter rules and an academic approach would kill.

 

The individual's development in songwriting comes from doing it. From trying. From stumbling and falling and getting up again.

Surely the spirit of an organisation comes from the people, not the rules?

 

No - it ain't broke.

[Lee Knight]

 

This is hardly a songwriting forum. For that purpose it would require certain features of a writer's workshop - including among others evaluation of completed works - to even remotely qualify under it's current misnomer. What it is in practice is a comfortable spot for regular members to say what they want to say about writing which is usually unrelated to the subject of developing writing skills in the most academic sense of that exercise and undertaking. "Something of a germ here" is not the start of a writing exercise that is to be solicited upon the group. That never happens in a true workshop because it is verboten. It can influence in any manner another's focus for his or her own writing and is expressly forbidden, if not altogether silly. Members of a workshop are not obligated to other members in that context. This is the time when writers take a given goal and step into isolation for the purpose of answering that goal. This forum offers none of the spirit of a true writing workshop where developing individuals, gimmicks, styles and flair is the purpose within a discipline of academics, organization, structure, goals and deadlines. I don't think this forum was developed as a songwriting forum prior to and certainly not after after the site went public. It doesn't have any songwriting features and hasn't publicly committed to developing itself to that end. I think once the site was up the creators of this particular forum found they had more than they could handle within their own talent pool to properly organize and complete and left it to an assigned moderator to dictate decorum rather than develop it as its namesake should have been developed. In other words, the forum fails as a songwriting workshop and is currently behaving like an ad hoc mix of personalities who have grown comfortable with the way it has been, and probably how it will continue. It is now a culture unto itself and I doubt new rules reworking it into a proper songwriting effort will be accepted without the typical rebuke that comes with change.

 

 

I'm for that. For making a more traditional songwriting forum. I would love all that.

 

But I gotta say, I'm totally mystified by your style, Pitar. Absolutely negative in nature. With semidisguised potshots along the way. To take your input seriously, you would have to be someone who might've actually contributed in even the smallest of ways as opposed to constantly talking trash. Trash talk in what I can't help but interpret as a pompous tone. You want to be part of this and make things better? Get your hands dirty and build instead of tear down. Fantastic! Let's do it!

 

You don't want to be a part of it? You don't want to build? You don't want to get your hands dirty?

 

Then you know what to do.

 

You know that character in a story? The boy who makes fun of all the others but is alone? The other kids say, come on man, come with us... and the lone boy say's "What? With you dorks?" The group tries but can't break through his shell. The kids leave shaking their heads and the lone boy whispers "dorks". Alone. Dorks.

 

I guess we're too dorky for you?

[kurdy]

 

You use the word 'academic'. No - I don't think a forum can be an academy. It's a chatroom. It's a place where people can say "I've got a bit of an idea. Whattcha think?" There is a spirit of openness and camaraderie and free exchange that stricter rules and an academic approach would kill.

 

 

Exactly. This is the internet. Strict dogma, rules and regulations aren't very big around these parts. It's about the free exchange of ideas. Fortunately, one has the freedom not to participate if they choose.

[ido1957]

 

I think there already is. There's ample room for discussion in this forum of all different aspects of the songwriting process--rough idea, all the way up through finished production.

 

The WIP stuff gets their own threads. If you post a completed song it's relegated to one mega thread which gets few visits and little discussion. The allocation is by no means equal. Even the monthly "accomplishment thread" is another large thread that is not conducive to discussion. There's no harm in posting a so called completed song in it's own thread. If you don't want to listen/comment/contribute to the YT clicks then don't. It discourages members who might contribute to the forum.

[oldgitplayer]

 

If you post a completed song it's relegated to one mega thread which gets few visits and little discussion. The allocation is by no means equal. Even the monthly "accomplishment thread" is another large thread that is not conducive to discussion.

 

 

People post fully produced works in its own thread and they don't get moved.

The reason - they have stated what they are concerned about and are asking for comment.

It may sound finished, but the poster is open to further development.

 

What gets moved are finished works that people simply want to show and tell.

[ido1957]

 

People post fully produced works in its own thread and they don't get moved. The reason - they have stated what they are concerned about and are asking for comment. It may sound finished, but the poster is open to further development. What gets moved are finished works that people simply want to show and tell.

 

 

Nothing wrong with allowing songs in their own threads - whether WIP or complete. You can critique them even if they are show and tell. If you don't want to add to their clicks then ignore the thread.

[rsadasiv]

 

I think there already is. There's ample room for discussion in this forum of all different aspects of the songwriting process--rough idea, all the way up through finished production. The question that was raised was should there be? Or should there be stricter rules in here as to what topics are worthy of discussion? My answer would be absolutely not--the forum is fine as is. That appears to be the sentiment of most people here...though there will always be some that disagree.

 

 

my thought is kurby did right.

[Marshal]

 

And... it never occurs to me that someone less comfortable with production is at a disadvantage. . . . ,

 

 

Of course it doesn't. You're at the top of the production food chain.

 

And to be perfectly clear, Lee, you are a very egalitarian person. You show your tunes with their warts. And you show the whole process of working them out. You solicit feedback. And you are very encouraging and supportive of others. I personally feel there is no ego-trip on your part in all of this. You're the white knight.

 

I'm almost becoming sorry I made the original comment. But I still stand behind it, though. Much of what we talk about here is production. And I have no problem with that. I find it rather strange that the people who like to get more involved in production are the ones feeling defensive about this. I never said there was anything wrong with production discussions. I certainly don't want them to go away.

 

But it is possible for somebody to spend a lot of time polishing a song that isn't really worked out well yet.

[stickboymusic]

 

Nothing wrong with allowing songs in their own threads - whether WIP or complete. You can critique them even if they are show and tell. If you don't want to add to their clicks then ignore the thread.

 

 

I think the problem would be, if this was allowed is suddenly the board would be flooded with people just posting their songs new and old hoping to get a listen.

 

Yes you can ignore it but the threads with actual purpose, where people are looking for advice would be pushed down and off the page.

 

I suppose there could be a seperate forum section for the completed songs but i cant see how it would be any different form the monthly showcase thread i.e largely ignored

 

there are other sites that cater for showcasing - i think this place is pretty unique in how it works

[Monkey Uncle]

 

I think the problem would be, if this was allowed is suddenly the board would be flooded with people just posting their songs new and old hoping to get a listen. Yes you can ignore it but the threads with actual purpose, where people are looking for advice would be pushed down and off the page. I suppose there could be a seperate forum section for the completed songs but i cant see how it would be any different form the monthly showcase thread i.e largely ignored there are other sites that cater for showcasing - i think this place is pretty unique in how it works

 

 

Exactly. Allowing individual threads for showcasing finished songs would be the death of this forum.

[Oswlek]

 

I think the problem would be, if this was allowed is suddenly the board would be flooded with people just posting their songs new and old hoping to get a listen. Yes you can ignore it but the threads with actual purpose, where people are looking for advice would be pushed down and off the page. I suppose there could be a seperate forum section for the completed songs but i cant see how it would be any different form the monthly showcase thread i.e largely ignored there are other sites that cater for showcasing - i think this place is pretty unique in how it works

 

 

Yes, the only finals that are acceptable are songs that HC helped push along or showcase thread material - for good reason.

[Marshal]

An awful lot of discussion on this. I truly hope nothing changes out of this. Like I said before, I have not problem with the way things are. I can choose to listen to and react to whatever I like. If I don't want to get wrapped up in production, I'll just stay out of those threads. But I feel those of you that do like to talk production, do it in a reasonably inquisative fashion. None of us wants to be bombarded with self serving posts just looking for "clicks." I feel that hardly ever happens here.

 

And if we moved production and finished works to a different forum, that forum would die from lack of traffic. And this forum would suffer from loss of perspective.

[Lee Knight]

 

Of course it doesn't. You're at the top of the production food chain. And to be perfectly clear, Lee, you are a very egalitarian person. You show your tunes with their warts. And you show the whole process of working them out. You solicit feedback. And you are very encouraging and supportive of others. I personally feel there is no ego-trip on your part in all of this. You're the white knight. I'm almost becoming sorry I made the original comment. But I still stand behind it, though. Much of what we talk about here is production. And I have no problem with that. I find it rather strange that the people who like to get more involved in production are the ones feeling defensive about this. I never said there was anything wrong with production discussions. I certainly don't want them to go away. But it is possible for somebody to spend a lot of time polishing a song that isn't really worked out well yet.

 

 

Thanks Marshall.

 

Now, this whole concept of what stage someone shows their stuff is very interesting to me. Take for example, Marshall, your latest tune. You posted a lyric with no music at first. Having only that to go on, I saw what I perceived to be issues in the tone, voice and syntax of the lyric. Then you posted the music. And 75% of my concerns went away.

 

Should you have posted with music at first?

 

For me, I love the way you did it. While I picked on things that later weren't issues after hearing the music, seeing the lyric pointed out what I believe is something that could make your tune better. You may or may not disagree and I'm fine with that. But...

 

...the same idea of someone not posting until they have a full production or can get their voice to sound "less sucky". The idea is to solicit reaction on the perceived weaknesses. For me anyway. I always choose what I want to do. I only use the reaction of others to inform my perception of the tune. To give me that outside perspective and to better learn over time to own some of that outside perspective. To have my own footlight perspective. Like anything, we get better the more we learn about somethihg and practice it. Even outside perspective.

 

So I had a rewrite for your lyric and for the most part I'm way off base. I think there's still a tiny room for improvement. You may or may not agree. Cool. But if by chance you do agree, having posted the music first would've most likely created a situation where I overlooked it and couldn't in turn point it out to you.

 

(note: for this to work, we need a solid idea and conviction. We don't want to sway with the wind of opinion and reaction. I think self assessment is important with regrads to our ability to stay with our vision. It's an opinion, not fact. Use it or don't.)

 

Some disagree with all that ^ and I get it. But for me, I love putting my work in an awkward and unflattering florescent light to accentuate the warts and blemishes. I can later step back and see if the Monet effect really does truly warrant me leaving a blemish or not. But I want to make that choice in an informed way.

 

Ramble on, Lee.

[Lee Knight]

i think this place is pretty unique in how it works

 

I think so too. For me, the way this forum works, or rather, the way I like to work this forum, is integral to me writing a song. I heard some mention of "writing by committee". I can assure everyone, I don't write by committee. If i dont' absolutely love something someone recommends, it ain't getting used. Sometimes that's 100% of the input. Sometimes input causes me to rethink my angle. Sometimes input is so perfect I'll say something like "suggestion appropriated". Meaning, thank you very much, idea stolen.

 

So... it pains me to see others that don't have this wonderful feeling about this board here. I'm surprised when I hear it and motivated to either finds ways to include more people into the fold, or to modify the working model here to better facilitate everyone. It sometimes makes me ashamed that I've been having so much fun while others haven't.

 

I don't want that. In the case of this forum and how I've been working it, the adage "The more the merrier" is very, very true. It benefits everyone. I hope.

[stickboymusic]

I think so too. For me, the way this forum works, or rather, the way I like to work this forum, is integral to me writing a song. I heard some mention of "writing by committee". I can assure everyone, I don't write by committee. If i dont' absolutely love something someone recommends, it ain't getting used. Sometimes that's 100% of the input. Sometimes input causes me to rethink my angle. Sometimes input is so perfect I'll say something like "suggestion appropriated". Meaning, thank you very much, idea stolen. So... it pains me to see others that don't have this wonderful feeling about this board here. I'm surprised when I hear it and motivated to either finds ways to include more people into the fold, or to modify the working model here to better facilitate everyone. It sometimes makes me ashamed that I've been having so much fun while others haven't. I don't want that. In the case of this forum and how I've been working it, the adage "The more the merrier" is very, very true. It benefits everyone. I hope.

 

not my words... but my thoughts

 

words appropriated

 

[Lee Knight]

[LeonardScaper]

... it pains me to see others that don't have this wonderful feeling about this board here.

 

It's ok.

 

Most of those folks still drop by fairly regularly to see how the rest of us are getting along and to check out the home grown music.

 

I haunt a few other Songwriter Forums and this is by far the best of the bunch. Blue's laissez faire governance allows us an incredibly diverse palette from which to create. We can get deeply involved in the committee approach or choose to ask for specific, one shot guidance.

 

I know that my songwriting has improved as a direct result of my interaction here. I would not want to change a thing.

[rhino55]

 

Outside of that, though, I consider just about everything in the creation process "songwriting".

 

 

Personally, I only see songwriting as lyrics and melody, but realize that for others, mixing can be just as important. I don't have a problem with watching other guys on here discuss these types of issues. I actually enjoy it, and would like to think that I've learned a thing or two in the process.

[dramey]

It wasn't that long ago someone was complaining too much time is spent stressing over lyrics here.

 

I agree that production can overwhelm a lyric, but imho a lyric is only part of what makes up a song. Music is the other big part, and yes, even the actual production (the recording, mix etc) is part as well.

 

I like the way its done around here. You usually see a song as its being built from the ground up. Eventually some of them make it from nothing but an idea to a full blown production, and I think that is pretty cool.

[Oswlek]

 

Personally, I only see songwriting as lyrics and melody, but realize that for others, mixing can be just as important. I don't have a problem with watching other guys on here discuss these types of issues. I actually enjoy it, and would like to think that I've learned a thing or two in the process.

 

 

My songs transform so much during the production phase that I don't consider even an entire lyric and melody anything more than an idea until it has been put to the fire.