Members pip187 Posted December 15, 2003 Members Share Posted December 15, 2003 I've just been into my local guitar shop, as I have decided to get a 'better sounding' guitar. I must have tried about 15 guitars ranging from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members seven7 Posted December 15, 2003 Members Share Posted December 15, 2003 what sounds "good" is a very subjective thing. trust your ears. but also keep in mind you will probably get more picky about sound the longer you play. if you can't hear the difference now then don't spend the extra money. wait until you know what you're looking for and what you really want.just keep trying out guitars, the more you play the more you'll know what is available to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarnut1085 Posted December 15, 2003 Members Share Posted December 15, 2003 try having someoneelse play the guitars. the sound hole is on the front of the guitar and your ears are above it. when you get out in front of the guitar you get a better idea of the sound. like seven7 said just keep trying guitars out until you find one you like. the best acoustic tone i have ever heard came out of a $300 sigma that my friend has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted December 15, 2003 Members Share Posted December 15, 2003 absolutely....stand a few feet away while somebody plays it... makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members irpacynot Posted December 15, 2003 Members Share Posted December 15, 2003 Also, it may be good to keep in mind that you won't hear all the differences in price. But you'll know them in other ways. Besides the obvious aesthetic qualities of a higher-end model guitar it should be made to last. Frets will be done well & complete, more attention should be given to the braces, and overall the construction should be more precise and durable. Though you may not hear the differences right away, you may begin to hear in a year when it is impossible to play in tune (with some cheaper models). Another thing before I leave you alone ( ). Remember that the more expensive the instrument the more you'll probably want to pay closer attention to caring for it. Run a search here for threads about humidity, polishing, etc. Good luck on your purchase, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members woody b Posted December 16, 2003 Members Share Posted December 16, 2003 There are several problems with listening to guitars in music stores and I don't have the answers. If you have an Applause AE28 with new strings it might sound better than the Martin D45 with 10 month old strings. I would try to buy a solid top guitar no matter what any of the plywood guitars sound like. A solid top guitar "opens up" and sounds better with age but a plywood or laminated top loses some of its sound as it ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markdsatx Posted December 16, 2003 Members Share Posted December 16, 2003 I had a similar experience this weekend. I've got an Alvarez RD20s I got for $155 early this year. I took it to a really nice small guitar shop to have the action raised a bit. Anyways, this place has some Larivees, Seagulls, Collings, Gibsons, Alvarez-Yairi, and Taylors. The guitar tech offered to fix the action while I waited (nice). I played several of the guitars that were under $2000. I had my credit card with me and thought it best not to cross that barrier. The guitar tech kept playing my guitar after making adjustments. Quite frankly, I really liked the way it sounded, even from across the store. The Taylor 110 they had seemed thin and the neck joint was sloppy in its construction (nothing like other Taylors I've handled). The Seagull S6 was of course good. The flamed Koa Alvarez-Yairi was pretty nice too. Like you, I wasn't blown away by what I heard. All in all, I left feeling pretty good about my guitar. I'm not saying I haven't been blown away. I played a S6+ Cedar that knocked my socks off and I was in another store where I heard a guy playing some new fancy Taylor and it kicked some butt. It it takes time, patience and being picky. The hunt is definitely part of the fun. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted December 16, 2003 Members Share Posted December 16, 2003 It it takes time, patience and being picky. The hunt is definitely part of the fun. Amen to that, Mark! I'm in the same boat - I've got serious GAS pains but I have a red-light from the wife on buying a new guitar. Instead, I took my old Tak in to get worked on and came away feeling good about it. I still keep my eyes open and sneak around to try out new guitars every so often, but luckily I haven't done anything to merit sleeping on the couch! I've come dangerously close to pulling the trigger a couple of times, but thank God I'm fussy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pip187 Posted December 16, 2003 Author Members Share Posted December 16, 2003 Thanks for all the replys guys (and gals - I dont wanna be accused of being sexist AND guitarist ... lol) I enjoyed reading them, and sounds like some of you have had the same experience as me - its quite nice to come home and enjoy the sound of your own guitar after strumming a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 There is a difference between low end and high end guitars both in sound and build quality. However, I believe that the differences get smaller the more you pay. While a $300 guitar may be twice as good as a $150 guitar, I don't think you can say that a $2000 guitar is twice as good as a $1000 one. In fact, IMHO, once you cross the $1000 threshold, I believe that the differences in tone and playability dramatically drop. They are still there, but they are subtle. By the time you're at $2000, the differences I see are primarily cosmetic. The concept of spending $6,000 or more on a super premium custom acoustic is unfathomable to me. The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WilliamF Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 I played a $4,000 Martin, couldn't tell much of a difference to one that was priced at $1,500. I played a Taylor 355 12 string. It prices around $1,000. My W65 Taylor 12 string, $2,500, didn't sound much different. I think I payed for the Claro Walnut and the fancy abalone inlays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike Crixell Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by Preacher Will There is a difference between low end and high end guitars both in sound and build quality. However, I believe that the differences get smaller the more you pay. While a $300 guitar may be twice as good as a $150 guitar, I don't think you can say that a $2000 guitar is twice as good as a $1000 one. In fact, IMHO, once you cross the $1000 threshold, I believe that the differences in tone and playability dramatically drop. They are still there, but they are subtle. By the time you're at $2000, the differences I see are primarily cosmetic. The concept of spending $6,000 or more on a super premium custom acoustic is unfathomable to me.The Preacher Boy, I completely disagree with your premise and all that follows. YOU might not be able to tell the differences in guitars, regardless of the price. However, countless differences do abound, regardless of anyone's acknowledgement. Perhaps with factory guitars, the notion that going up in price yields little more than cosmetics is marginally on track. But in the case of handmade instruments from the shops of master builders, nothing could be further from the truth. Many of the finest builders adorn their guitars with . . . nothing. No abalone, no mother of pearl, nothing. Except tone. And playability. And tonal quality that increases in value as fast or faster than the considerable monetary appreciation of the luthier's art. So, perhaps you might not hear or feel the difference in finer guitars, assuming that you have tried them. Regardless, the fact remains, loud and clear, that differences in tone and playability very much do exist, without permission or admission, as does the overall quality of these guitars. Sure, these aspects can be poopoo'ed or denied all together, but it diminishes their musical value not at all. It is true that paying more money for something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tepauldaca Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 This may have already been said, but im about to go to bed and didnt want to read the other stuff.when I was picking out my taylor, we slowly narrowed it down to three models, so instead of me looking at them and playing them, the guy had me close my eyes and pick which one I liked. it was the one i thought I wasn't going to like. suprise. luckily they had three (amazingly) and we went through the whole process again. I went through the first two and they sounded the same, then the third one. holy cow. It absolutly blew the other two away, it had such a full sound compared to the others. I ended up getting a x14-ltd. but what I may have thought sounded great in that guitar, may not have sounded better to another person. anyway, my two cents for purchasing an acoustic. play as many guitars as you can and slowly whittle it down, then have the guy bring the the final 4-6 guitars, and play them with your eyes closed. and pick the one that SOUNDS best to you. dont just pick one cause its blue, or you like the florentine cutaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 I think everyone makes some good points I can agree with. Sometimes extra money for a brand named mass production instrument is not worth the difference. But as you begin getting into the small builders like Cruz, Collings, Goodall, Bourgeois and many more, the quality of tone and build LEAPS above the mass produced instruments. There is a notable difference in tone and balance to a trained ear. As you get into the respected individual luthiers the quality jumps another quantum leap. Then you are not only paying for quality but exactly what you ordered to the tee or your money back. When they divide that 5000-7000 dollars by the number of hours it took to hand make that instrument they make about 10 bucks an hour after expenses and costs. People that think individual luthiers make alot of money are wrong for the most part. Just my 02 cents... chiming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pip187 Posted December 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 Can I just throw in another quick thought......... I suppose two identical guitars by the same manufacturer can also have different tones due to woods used (eg. one piece of spruce isn't gunna sound like the piece cut from a different tree?) So I guess buying a guitar from a shop is less risky than ordering one online?? Pip187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by pip187 Can I just throw in another quick thought......... I suppose two identical guitars by the same manufacturer can also have different tones due to woods used (eg. one piece of spruce isn't gunna sound like the piece cut from a different tree?) So I guess buying a guitar from a shop is less risky than ordering one online?? Pip187 Shoot yeah Not to say you cannot get a great guitar online but it's a crap shoot. Even buying a custom guitar is a gamble since you may not order what you really need. As they say a bird in hand is better than two in the bush. Whatever that means Seriously, if you can play guitars with your own hands instead of your imagination it stands to reason you can find a better match. Much like buying Tennis Shoes online. You just don't know till you get them if they really fit. The problem is when no stores in your town carry the shoes you need then you might order online and just eat the shipping and return it if you dont like it. In some ways that is more convenient if you know what to shop for in the first place. I've ordered countless guitars online and as a result I have sold many guitars on Ebay that were not quite right or I grew out of quickly. Tradeoffs are good and bad with everything. I recently ordered 3 Gibson J-45s and sent back the 2 I didn't like. 100% refund and about 50.00 lost in shipping. But I never paid sales tax nor drove all over the state burning gas and headaches. example. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 I knew that I'd draw some fire with my last post, but I hold to my assertion. I've played more than a few high end, hand built guitars including Bourgeois (sp?), Goodall, Froggy Bottom, Benedetto (the original, not the Fender knock-off), and others. (The most amzing sounding acoustic I've ever heard was a production Larrivee.) I'm still interested in getting my hands on an Olsen and a Manzer. Yes, they they are wonderful instruments. Yes, they have greater presence than even high-end factory instruments. No, they are not four, eight, nine, fifteen times more wonderful than a basic Taylor, Martin, Gibson, Guild, etc. Yet that's the prices these things command. And that is my point. For vastly greater sums of money, you're getting only minimally incremental improvements until the diminishing returns for investment make them, IMHO, unjustifiably expensive. Say what you will about a builder's earning only slightly more than minimum wage, it still doesn't justify the price. Regarding the issue about a discriminating ear--to a great extent, perhaps completely, that's a subjective issue. What one person finds desireable, another may find offensive. Tones one person calls "warm", another would designate "muddy;" what's "crisp and clear" to me may be "harsh and bright" to you. I'm forty-seven, been playing guitar off and on for over 35 years. I've spent a great deal of time playing music, mostly electric and pipe organs and believe that after more than forty years of ear training (man I'm getting old ) I can discriminate between two guitars fairly well. I still maintain that the differences between guitars at the upper end of the spectrum aren't great enough to justify the prices. Of course I'm wrong. What justifies the prices are all of the people out there who will plop down thousands of dollars to get on a waiting list entitling them to buy a "shot in the dark" guitar a couple of years down the road. If that's their bag, so be it. It just doesn't make sense to me. The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike Crixell Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 The most anyone can do is speak his/her opinion, as you have. But please do so as such and not as a blanket statement of truth, because that it is not. Someone can scream to the heavens that a hot dog is the highest order of fine dining, but that doesn't make it true, much less particularly notable. Another person can categorically state that a horse and buggy is the ONLY way to travel, with anything more advanced being an affectation that's not worth the expense. This is also an opinion that is founded in narrow, subjective preference. Both statements are valid to each person who makes them, but such statements also lack relevance in the face of a broader, more objective perspective of the world. That's all. So you can't appreciate the difference between production guitars and fine handmade instruments. This is no social crisis, just another tricky day. It changes the value of these instruments not one whit. You may be 47 as I am over 50, but that changes nothing, either. It's the experience of one's years that broadens perspective, and playing a larger representative spectrum of fine instruments available today is a wonderful experience, regardless of whether one can afford to buy one. Again, someone might very well cherish their kid's kindergarten drawing that's hanging on the fridge as the most beautiful artwork ever, but the Mona Lisa still hangs in the Louvre for the world to appreciate. One doesn't diminish the other, but one has a larger inherent value to the species, that's all. Your personal opinion of guitars' worth is equally valid . . . to you. The worth of fine instruments created by great luthiers nonetheless remains undeniable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 Yep I stand behind the fact that the small luthier builders are worth the money as long as they are people like Claxton and others that build guitars that will blow your mind. I agree with your points Preacher Will only to an extent but not as a hard rule. If you've not played some of these more amazing class of guitars I can understand but if you've played a Greven or especially a Claxton and you pick any Larrivee produced you are first going to notice the Larrivee is a fine guitar but is more clunky, bulky, unbalanced and less refined. The tone of the Claxton EM for example for around 6000.00 (includes a Claton Case) will utterly blow your mind. My new Santa Cruz is only a few months old and when I play it then pickup a Larrivee it's like picking up a Louisville slugger baseball bat with 3 practice donuts on the end. NO COMPARISON in any aspect. I will assert that if you can't tell the difference between a Froggy bottom and a Larrivee you are simply making that choice from your own preferences and not 95% of the world I personally would not use those as an example of what Mike is talking about. This year I went to Mike's jam and some of the greatest players and builders attend and send guitars to him. We played a variety from home made, hand made, custom made and factory guitars. I actually got to A/B and you know what ? There is no comparison. With exception of only one or two super high end guitars that left me flat they by in large all outperformed mass production guitars by leaps and bounds. Now you say is it worth 10X more ? Well thats not what I am saying. When you buy a Chevy that does 105 miles per hour for 20,000 then why do we have 250,000 dollar Farraris on the road that do 210 miles per hour. Does that mean a Farrari is only worth 40,000 dollars ? Well, to a bunch of good ole boys like you and I we own a chevy but that does not diminish the value of that Farrari that wins worldwide races. Same with guitars. If you ever get a chance to play Mike's Claxton he paid 5500.00 for you might think more like I do. He got a DEAL OF A LIFETIME. There's not a Martin made that can wax it's shoes. And yes, there is just that much of a difference. Many of these builders did NOT raise the price of their guitars to that level. THE CUSTOMERS DID ! On ebay and elsewhere. They FORCED it up because they are willing to pay it. Thats just free enterprise... Please understand where Mike is coming from. I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 I haven't allowed myself to play very many truly 'high end' guitars due to the fact that I can't afford them... I just ...can't... be... tempted... I understand what you are saying about the differences between a $200 and a $600 guitar being greater than the differences between a $1000 guitar and a $3000 guitar. It's also important to realize that price, just like tone, is subjective. Pricing doesn't always coorelate directly to the quality of the guitar. As always, market forces determine a great deal of it. The one thing I notice about nice (expensive) guitars and cheap ones is the difference in longevity. A well built guitar will age gently and even grow sweeter as the years pass. A cheap, poorly made guitar with slowly decay into a big piece of junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members irpacynot Posted December 17, 2003 Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by Mike Crixell Boy, I completely disagree with your premise and all that follows. YOU might not be able to tell the differences in guitars, regardless of the price. However, countless differences do abound, regardless of anyone's acknowledgement. What comes immediately to mind for me is my brother's Takamine. Well over a grand, decent sounding guitar, but you can see at first glance where the cost is. It has a beautiful multi-wood intricate soundhole rosette. Also has a built-in preamp with every gizmo imaginable, though not necessarily needed. I agree that perhaps someone can play an okay sounding $1000 guitar and make it sound as good or better than a stellar sounding $10,000 guitar, but that's a matter of personal intonation, technique, and overall communicative qualities, I believe. Otherwise, I'm with Mike. There are many subtle differences, and most of those seem to be labor intensive, hence the differences in price (excluding of course expensive add-ons such as fossilized ivory components, etc.). Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LittleBrother Posted December 18, 2003 Members Share Posted December 18, 2003 Hey, I know this was a hot little topic but I wanted to say I respect whatever decisions people make when buying an instrument and I continue to own a Gibson, Larrivee, Harmony, Univox, Yamaha and a variety of guitars all over the radar screen. Because I like them. I really love cheap guitars too. I'll just buy more stands But I enjoyed the discussion. Especially since noone here was flaming each other. Just challenging ideas. Coooool ! Sorry for the rambling.... go back to your regular programming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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