Guitar Painting

[D-log]

Originally posted this in electric, was told I might have better luck here...

 

I have a few project bodies I need to paint, and I was looking for some helpful advice:

 

1. For grain filler, I was looking to use Bartley's, but the company went out of business and i can't find any online. Stewmac's grain filler has had horrible reviews, so I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good wood filler for both a guitar that's just going to be stained then lacquered, and one that's going to be painted with enamel than lacquered.

 

2. I recently got a gravity feed spray gun, and was wondering if anyone had any experience using these to paint guitars. the Compressor goes up to 60 PSI, is that enough pressure? Also, do I have to thin the paint?

 

3. Finally, what would you consider to be the best brands of paint to use on guitars? I'm looking for a good clear lacquer and a strong enamel.

 

Any insight you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[Belva]

I use some that i got at a local WAHL paint center. Did just fine. you might also try Lowe's

[D-log]

 

I don't know if you'll like them, but here's two photos of different paints jobs on the same guitar. The second isn't finished. Actually, I guess the first one never got finished. Please, use 1SHOT lettering enamel. Don't use any other paint, especially if using an airbrush. And don't be so sold on laquer. It's amazing what's out there now.

 

 

Looked at the lettering enamel, looks good and I can get it locally. thing is, I'm not using an airbrush, but a paint sprayer. Will that work?

 

Also, what do you use for grain filler?

[WRGKMC]

I wouldnt use enamil on a guitar. Much of it is oil based and designed for metal only. You got to read the label and be sure its designed for wood and check and see if it can have laquer applied over it. Oil based Enamils can take up to 6 months to completely dry. If you clear coat over it you can have nasty reactions. I did one guitar with enamil and it would get marks on the finish just sitting in the guitar stand months after it had gotten a skin and appeared to be dry. I clear coated it too soon and it prevented the vapors to expell. This left the layers below semi liquid and the finish could wrinkle in areas where pressure was applied like the arms of the guitar stand and left dents. It took awhile, like a few weeks of sitting in the stand.

 

As you can guess, I'll never use enamil again. Not worth the agrivation and since there are superior products for guitars readily available, it makes no scence using something that can fail, especially with the time you invest in doing the job right, you want to get it right the first time around.

 

 

You can buy staining wood filler in most woodworking stores, paint shops or hardware stores. It will fill and stain at the same time. I use some stuff from my buddy who does antique restoration. He gets it wholesale and it works great. I cant remember the name of it off hand, but I'll see if I can check the brand when I get home. It needs to be mixed well because its thick and pasty on the bottom of the can and needs to be stirred in with the stain. I did one guitar with it and it looked so good as is, I never clear coated it.

[WRGKMC]

John you're so full of crap at times, I'm surprised even you can believe what you write. I cant for the life of me understand why someone would propogate bad advice. I suppose it makes some feel better if everyone else screws things up like they did so they wont feel so stupid.

 

One shot is Oil based enamil. The only clearcoat the manufacturer recomends is automotive poly coat. The poly should only be applied after you use an excelerator to dry the paints.

 

Read under ask louie.

 

http://www.1shot.com/home.html

 

Enamil is not great for wood, and terrible for instruments. Its oil based paint designed mainly for metal surfaces and the promer coats are lead based. The reason it isnt used on instruments is beacuse you first shelac, the prime with lead based primer the apply the enamel followed by poly to do it properly. Because all the layers are all separate, like rings on a tree, it sucks the hell out of the tone vibration away from the wood. In other words its a bad choice for an instrument.

 

Again I bring this up because of first hand experience. If someone wants to experiment, at least read what you're in for to do it properly.

 

http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/059-enamel.htm

 

I do suggest you read this page too. it talks about how stains bleed through enamil. the original poster mentioned staining, so its another thing to note. It also mentions the creeping and crawling that occurs especially if the enamil gets hot like in a guitar case in a car. All nasty stuff.

 

http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/060-repair.htm

 

Heres some other traditional ways of finishing with varnish which was traditional for violins.

They are simular to using laquer in some ways, but the application lf laquer is all alcohol based vs oil so your thinners, application thickness & dry times, plus how many coats are all going to be different.

 

http://www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/061-finishes.htm

[Belva]

Enamel is a bad choice for guitars. And yes it's because it takes forever to dry. The reason so many guitar manufacturers now use poly is because of the catalysts that make it dry quickly. Most spray can poly is a poly but it usually isn't the same stuf as what you'd put on your car. I'm a fan of Duplicolor acrylic lacquer. But that's just because it's available locally and in in every color of the rainbow. Fast dry, rattle can enamel will work, but the durability is questionable at best.

[D-log]

Alright, I get the point about the enamel... but all the paint that i've checked out only come in aerosol cans. Anyone know any good brands that you can get out of a regular can? I just hate using spray paint cans

[isaac42]

 

John you're so full of crap at times...

 

 

At times?

[WRGKMC]

Again john you're still full of crap on this subject. Theres only three finishes used on production guitars. Oil, Poly and Laquer. Theres a reason for it, because they work well and last a long time So go sell your bad info some place else.

[WRGKMC]

D-Log. The way they do it is to buy the clear laquer for spray guns here

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/Behlen_Nitrocellulose_Stringed_Instrument_Lacquers.html

 

Then buy the pigment here

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Liquid_Pigment_for_Lacquer.html

 

 

Then mix your custom colors for whatever tones or colors you want.

If

 

You can also stain the wood before applying laquer.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Colors,_tints,_and_stains/ColorTone_Liquid_Stains.html

 

If you visit the stuart site they have many tutorials and books on the subject. You can also visit this site http://home.flash.net/~guitars/ and read up on whats involved. The main thing is you dont want to try to reinvent the wheel here. People have been putting finishes on instruments for thousands of years, and theres a reason whay things are done a certain way. like I said, If you want to experiment, or take idiotic advice from guys like John who doesnt know his ass from a hole in the ground, then you'll reap what you sew. Also Google is your friend. You can Google Guitar refinishing and find a thousand sources on the subject.

 

Heres one that explains what they used for solid finishes, and includes what worked and what failed http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

[WRGKMC]

 

You say banana, I say been-in-ya, what's the diff? I can feel the difference. Lacquer is made from the lac insect, what it residue it deposits on trees. Show me that in your list of "lacquer" ingredients and I'll call it lacquer. So right now, your argument has me backtracking on calling lacquer lacquer. I think I'm going to go to Photoshop and learn how to photo-synthesize. Then I'll take a picture for you.

 

 

Boy John if it wasnt for Google or you mimicking advice from others like myself given here you really would be stupid. Did you ever make it out of kindergarden or do you just babbel because you liker to rub you wood while reading these posts. The looney toon factory is over in the other forums. Why dont you quit being a goo dip {censored} and go bother them for awhile.

[fatusstratus]

 

Lacquer is made from the lac insect, what it residue it deposits on trees. Show me that in your list of "lacquer" ingredients and I'll call it lacquer.

 

 

Nah, that's shellac.

Lacquer most likely picked up that part of the name because of the south asians - but lacquer didn't originate in South Asia, it originated in China and maybe Japan and they didn't use insects, they sapped trees directly.

[WRGKMC]

Shellac dates back to around 320 AD but was mainly used as a source of Dye. Its not the bug itself thats used its the excretion the bug uses to create egg cocoons when laying eggs thats used to create shelac. This isnt that much different than silk, another Chineese discovery.

 

Laquer has been around at least 7000 years and comes from the Chineese Laquer tree.

 

Varnish is a wide tent and dates back nearly as far. There were different types of varnish in Egypt, China, India etc. Consists of tree gums/saps and oils. Main thing is it penitrates woods.

 

 

Shelac will mix with Laquer and varnish because the insect that creates it is a sap sucker and the gell is mainly digested tree sap.

 

Since all three are basically wood derivatives, they all naturally bind with wood.

[fatusstratus]

 

Shellac dates back to around 320 AD but was mainly used as a source of Dye. Its not the bug itself thats used its the bugs excretion used when laying eggs thats used. .

 

 

I thought they produced that stuff through their whole life and used it sort of like a chrysalis (did I spell that right?).

[fatusstratus]

 

Shellac mostly comes from tree sap. Lacquer first came from India, the lac insect.

 

 

you have it backwards

 

Shellac comes from Lac bugs

 

Lacquer moved FROM China down into South Asia.

 

 

As you can see, lac-quer, shel-lac, organic substances, are seen as almost the same.

 

 

not by you though...

you said lacquer has to come from the lac bug, it doesn't - it didn't even originally come that way.

 

 

But history is history. I can't change that.

 

 

even though you try

[WRGKMC]

 

Shellac mostly comes from tree sap. Lacquer first came from India, the lac insect. As you can see, lac-quer, shel-lac, organic substances, are seen as almost the same. You can change the way things look. You can change the way you look at things. But history is history. I can't change that. If this thread gets any rougher I'll refinish using WWE corner post paint. And I'll enjoy listening to some of the wrestler's C.D.'s while I'm doing it, while I make a sandpaper headband to give it a rough buff. Head-shakers... the new punk sanding style.

 

 

John once again you're a flaming idiot. Why dont you google you facts so you can at least appear to be knowlegable. And do us a favor.

 

Before you stick your two cents in, check you facts first. Its a pain in the ass having to proove most of what you say is dead wrong or just plain stupid.

Do us a favor Just Shut the Fluck up.

 

History of shellac

http://shellacepc.com/history.html

 

History of Varnish

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.net/Articles/OilBasedVarnish.html

 

History of Laquer

http://www.china-tour.cn/Chinese-Arts/Chinese-Lacquer-Wares.htm

 

And dont start regurgitating what you read. Others can read it for themselves.

[fatusstratus]

 

We, as north americans, should get into what we are and have.

 

 

too late for that - you already tried to BS the other way saying that lacquer has to come from the lac bug which isn't even historically

 

 

The current trend in "counterfeits" is to see Chinese copies as fakes. Why stop with just guitars and attack their lacquer credibility too?

 

 

 

 

You got caught in a bunch of BS again so you try to shift it off to some non-sequitor, but it's just a bunch of BS

SO much for establishing that credibility

[WRGKMC]

Just like you John. :soapbox: Instead of admitting you're wrong, You change the subject. Pretty obvious tactic in politics but has no place in this forum. Either participate properly on topic or hit the road.

 

Didnt your Mommy ever teach you when you're wrong about something, good decent people express some humility and appologize for being an ass wipe? Or are you too good for the rest of us to be bothered?

[fatusstratus]

Wow - another reversal. You can't even keep your own line of BS straight

[Adey]

Seriously guys, give the guy a break.

I know its irritating and annoying, but just think about whats going on here.

Do any of you have experience with the mentally ill?

 

Do you call people with autism flaming idiots or tell them to shut the {censored} up?

 

You obviously very smart, intelligent and sane people, but not everyone in this world is blessed with those qualities. I think you should show a bit more understanding, compassion and respect. Maybe ive not been here long enough to know the full story, but i've never read John being rude or insulting to anyone.

 

Sorry to go against the grain as it were,

 

Maybe ive got support-the-underdog syndrome, i am English afterall.

 

Adey

[fatusstratus]

 

I'm not reversing anything

 

 

You sure did!

you went Lacquer is from the Lac bug

then went with North Americans should concentrate on North American stuff

then went Back to "it's true in India".

Back and forth and back and forth

 

that definition supports that lacquer doesn't have to come from the lac bug.

[fatusstratus]

"lacquer enamels". Did Webster's really print that?

 

"Enamel" is kind of a crappy word to use with these kinds of cured finishes, but it has kind of stuck with like car and house paint. It doesn't really refer to a chemistry, just to relative finish properties (hard, opaque, shiny etc), like traditional enamel coating. Traditional enamel coating is vitrified, it's a glaze.

 

It sucks, but the finish world has stuff that gets used incorrectly, or just as a loose description or for marketing reasons and it can confuse things.

We were talking a couple of weeks ago how a lot of stuff marketed as "tung oil finish" isn't really just an oil.

[WRGKMC]

Sorry Adey, Theres nothing wrong with the guy, He can make sane and coherent posts whenever he wants. He just think he's an artistic writer and posts all kinds of unrelated garbage trying to act intelegent. If you been around here for the past year you would know John has a ax to grind and he's posting like this to piss off the locals on a regular basis because they know he's full of crap and have called him out on it more times than they can count. He's been rejected from all the other forums or cant get the attention like he does here because people who hang in this forum are very helpful to others and he takes that as a liscence to abuse the forum.

 

 

He relys on people like you who havent been around here very long to enable him to pull his shennnagans and come off playing the innocent. You dont have any idea what you're dealing with sorry to say, but hang around, you'll get educated quick enough. If you want to find out how wierd the guy truely is, just check his post history. He's even gone to the point threatening to sue HC when one of his posts was shut down for profanity and then he started posts in all the other forums and ragging on his treatment here and even posted threads of us on his web page.

 

Those who were here then havent forgotten this guys game. To me he is just a complete troll and I could care less what he posts, but if he's going to challange my responces, I have no problem showing others the guy is a complete dope and have no remorse in doing so because of past experience dealing with him. I treat him as anyone else who gets out of line or posts bad info, and If I was to get flagged by the mediators here who I respect I have no problems with their rebuke.

 

This has been going on for a year now, and though I've been overly patient with the guy, he gets out of hand posting nonsence and needs to be reminded this is a site for people interested in DIY.

 

He even had two sign ons and would post to himself to continually bump his post until he got caught doing it. It was obvious as hell because noone could post page after page of such crap. If he wants to hang and flap his mouth off because he's a shut in or failed musician, he can move over to one of the other sites where ego pumping is the norm. As with most of the forums, if you're going to post off topic or not taking time to be accepted by others, then you got to accept the fact you're going to be shot down by others who take their posts seriously.

 

Its up to the forum members to police the forum when needed and noone I know of intentionally tries to make others feel anything but welcome here. If someone cant take a gentle nudge to let them know they're out of line, then I personally see no problem going a step farther within forum rules if the individual show no remorse for acting stupid.

 

Sorry for the thread hijack here D-log. I've tried to keep it on topic to help you out.

[fatusstratus]

 

I would think lac coming from an Indian word settles the India facts I typed.

 

 

nah, not so much. That Shellac can be used to make lacquer isn't news and that the Indians used a lot of shellac isn't news and that it's from the lac bug isn't news - but lacquer didn't originate there and didn't use the Lac bug.

you said it had to.

 

the etymology tells us how we got the word, and how it's changed. Not the full story of the meaning .

1670s, from Fr. lacre "a kind of sealing wax," from Port. lacre, unexplained variant of lacca "resinous substance," from Arabic lakk, from Pers. lak (see lac). The verb meaning "to cover or coat with laqueur" is from 1680s. Related: Lacquered.

 

[fatusstratus]

 

He relys on people like you who havent been around here very long to enable him to pull his shennnagans and come off playing the innocent. You dont have any idea what you're dealing with sorry to say, but hang around, you'll get educated quick enough.

 

 

I did

sorry for 'helping continue' it here. I don't mind so much when it's his own mega-thread I guess because it lets people see his deal, but sorry for the hijack here.

 

I doubt he's autistic - he slips in and out of character. When someone gets him, he starts using non-sequitors to try to change the subject or the context.

Like check it here - he started with Asian history, so he switches to "well in North america", then he switches back to "Well in India"