Albums should cost a buck... I mean $#1+!

[Lionslicer]

 

But you're correct in this one... coming in as a newbie and hurtling insults about people you don't know is not cool.

 

 

I am sorry you feel this way, but I judge people on how they act, not their post count. I apologize if it came off as an insult, but I was really just trying to get my bearings on the guy with an asinine avatar who cherrypicked a post of mine. What am I supposed to do? Kiss his ass because he's been posting on these forums for a long time?

 

"Judging by your avatar, I'll assume that you are a Rush bot that has been voting for the republicans who give lip service to "small government" and lower taxes while they allow their friends to plunder our treasures at record levels. If that's the case, I guess I am wasting my time trying to have an intelligent conversation on the topic. On the other hand, if you are a libertarian free stater, I have enough common ground and intellectual respect to continue the discussion - which is it?"

 

Is that an insult? I guess if you were a rushbot, that would be insulting. Can't say that I apologize for that. The point I was trying to make was that I am interested in a conversation about the free market and the future of music, but not in debating someone on a pure right/left argument.

[richardmac]

 

"Judging by your avatar, I'll assume that you are a Rush bot that has been voting for the republicans who give lip service to "small government" and lower taxes while they allow their friends to plunder our treasures at record levels. If that's the case, I guess I am wasting my time trying to have an intelligent conversation on the topic. On the other hand, if you are a libertarian free stater, I have enough common ground and intellectual respect to continue the discussion - which is it?" Is that an insult?

 

 

Yes. You are essentially saying "If you are a republican, I am wasting my time trying to have an intelligent conversation with you." That is insulting.

 

And I'm an independent.

 

When I re-read the thread, I see you and BlueStrat disagreeing. I see BlueStrat as being sarcastic in his debate. Which was probably uncalled for. And then I see you hurl the first insult. And then it all went downhill from there.

 

Mostly, I said something because BlueStrat is a long standing member of this online community who has contributed a lot of really good ideas. He isn't afraid to speak his mind, sometimes he isn't politically correct, but I tend to value his opinions, mostly because we have many of the same opinions.

[modulusman]

Actually Blue Strat is infatuated with Obama.

[MartinC]

So you actually sell your cd at gigs for less than anywhere else? That's interesting. How do you know that you are getting four times as many sales? Couldn't you possibly have sold just as many at 10.00? Maybe you had a good night?

 

 

 

I would totally agree with that. You have to price your CD to the market you're selling in. My point is this: You score a big major deal and somehow, against all odds, get your music into WalMart. So your CD is there on the shelves, with all the other CD's that are new and hot and cost 10 bucks, and yours is $18.99. That is going to seriously hurt your sales. It's actually a fantasy scenario, because WalMart's not going to sell your CD for $18.99. They're going to say "If you sell through us, the price will be $9.99." But yeah, I charge 99 cents per song for my music on iTunes, $9.99 at CDBaby, and $5 at gigs. I discovered I could sell 4 times as much music at $5 each as opposed to $10 each at gigs.

 

[MartinC]

I like Bluestrat's various Obama avatars myself. The fact that you consider it asinine and needed to mention it shows you are pretty thin skinned when it comes to tolerating other views. You can love Obama all you want, but as the pres, he's gonna get all the same scruntiny and be criticized just as harshly as GWB and Bill Clinton were.

Goes with the gig.

 

 

 

but I was really just trying to get my bearings on the guy with an asinine avatar who cherrypicked a post of mine.

 

[BlueStrat]

Actually Blue Strat is infatuated with Obama.

 

 

Indeed!

 

[richardmac]

 

So you actually sell your cd at gigs for less than anywhere else? That's interesting. How do you know that you are getting four times as many sales? Couldn't you possibly have sold just as many at 10.00? Maybe you had a good night?

 

 

No, I'm talking over the course of a year. Plenty of gigs. I believe it's because $5 is an impulse buy and $10 is not.

[BlueStrat]

Is that an insult? I guess if you were a rushbot, that would be insulting. Can't say that I apologize for that. The point I was trying to make was that I am interested in a conversation about the free market and the future of music, but not in debating someone on a pure right/left argument.

You are the one who jumped to conclusions based on a picture and broke out the politics. No one mentioned right or left until you chimed in with your insult. And when I responded exactly the same way you did to illustrate to you what you had just done, you accused me of trolling. Nice.

 

My conclusions about you, unlike yours about me, are based on your words. But if it comforts you to paint me as a 'rushbot' to dismiss an argument, go right ahead. I'll be too busy driving my Humvee offroad through virgin forests and endangered species habitat to care, looking for a good place to clear cut, drill for oil and put up a WalMart, so that I can make obscene profits, starve grandparents, eat poor children, kick the disabled out of their homes, and help find new ways to discriminate against people of color everywhere, hopefully killing a bunch of them overseas in the process. It's just what we conservative libertarians do.

 

 

 

[BydoEmpire]

 

Oxymoron.

Actually it's not - it's the way we ran things for most of the 20th century. Of course, it must be regulated to some extent - otherwise investors would have no confidence and it couldn't exist at all - but we've been losing the the "well" part for about 30 years. An unregulated market is unsustainable, like a football game with no refs. We've seen proof of this over and over throughout history.

 

As for the original post, goods are not priced based on what they cost to make, they're priced based on what the market will bear. I get more than $10 out of most of the CDs I buy, though I'm sure others feel differently. You're also paying for the MUSIC (i.e. the careers of the musicians, the label, etc), not the plastic it's printed on. Price is not the biggest problem with the music industry.

[BlueStrat]

 

Actually it's not - it's the way we ran things for most of the 20th century. Of course, it's still regulated to some extent - otherwise investors would have no confidence. An unregulated market is unsustainable, like a football game with no refs. We've seen proof of this over and over.

My point is that a regulated market is by definition not a free market. That is not to say it is not a capitalist market, or an undemocratic one. And yes, an unregulated market is unsustainable for the same reason an unregulated society is-the tendency of man towards greed and dishonesty.

 

We have actually not had a truly free market since the early 20th century, if even then. What we have had is varying degrees of government meddling and tinkering depending on which political party is in power at the time, sometimes producing good results and just as often not. This really got into gear during the Wilson presidency when the fascist philosophy of Mussolini was in vogue with economists and political leaders in much of the west, and it went into overdrive during the Depression of the 1930s.

 

Even at that, the difference in the results of economic policy between the two major governing parties for the past twenty years has been negligible. Both have become proponents of big government and an increasing blurring of the lines between government and industry. They only disagree on which parts of government to grow, and which industries to punish and which to prop up. This is why deficits have ballooned under every presidency and every congress since the 70s.

 

 

Price is not the biggest problem with the music industry.

Exactly.

[wurstburst]

Actually, music should be free. Musicians don't get any money 99% of the time from the record companies anyway, so why should they care how high they are priced. The higher the price, the less people that have their music. The less people with the music, the less fans. The less fans, the less people coming to concerts (where musicians actually make money - what a concept!), and buying t-shirts (where musicians actually make money - what a concept!), and buying posters, and special access to the band, and a million other scarce goods that actually make money for the band.

 

CD sales are just a way to make money for record companies. In no way shape or form are they a money-making enterprise for actual musicians.

[panoramic]

buy records at shows if you want the bands to actually make money, otherwise just do whatever you are going to do and stop thinking you're opinions on this matter will ever change how the artists' are slighted by the industry at large.

[Lionslicer]

 

When I re-read the thread, I see you and BlueStrat disagreeing. I see BlueStrat as being sarcastic in his debate. Which was probably uncalled for. And then I see you hurl the first insult. And then it all went downhill from there.

 

 

Yeah, in retrospect, it was poor form to introduce myself to the discussion the way I did. I have to admit that his avatar pissed me off. That, combined with cherry picking my post (typical RW pundit MO) had me losing my temper a bit. I guess the cherry pick was fair in the context of hazing the newb, but the tactic still comes off as anti-intellectualism. Obviously, bluestrat was trying to get my goat - props to you for success in that.

 

As to the avatar: Look, I said it in my first post: I haven't drunk the obama kool-aid. Personally, I fear Obama is all for show (albeit a good show after the tragic comedy of the last 8 years). I think that Dems and Republicans have both been spreading America's ass cheeks for corporations who have achieved a criminal level of influence over our government. The only real difference is that the dems are a little gentler - they like to lube us up before the corporate ass{censored} and they tend to pick "nicer" corporations for the gang bang.

 

So why does the avatar piss me off so much? Because it is implying that america is crazy for voting Obama into office. Eight years of pissing on the constitution, murdering countless innocents, letting their buddies drain our treasure to destitution, and voting for the guy who says he is against all that is crazy? WTF? That kind of cognitive dissonance make me want to kill a cuddly kitten.

 

Beyond that, it would be pretty easy to misconstrue the avatar as blatant racism. Personally, I didn't do that, but you can see how others might (especially because bluestrat is from Idaho:lol:). I am not particularly politically correct and if you want to talk {censored} about ghetto thug black culture, I won't cry foul, but Obama is a constitutional scholar and is obviously intelligent and articulate. Compared to the white assclown we had for eight years, he's Thomas {censored}ing Jefferson. Rip on Obama's policy all you want, but don't imply that he isn't a fitting pres because of his race.

 

Anyway, all that verbal diarrhea above aside, I didn't jump into the discussion to talk about bush, obama, racism or killing kittens. I'll just reiterate my apology for getting pissed and bend over and take my hazing like a man.

[ermghoti II]

CD sales are just a way to make money for record companies. In no way shape or form are they a money-making enterprise for actual musicians.

 

Excluding, of course, the untold hundreds of thousands of actual musicians for whom selling CDs is a money making enterprise.

 

[Lionslicer]

 

My point is that a regulated market is by definition not a free market. That is not to say it is not a capitalist market, or an undemocratic one. And yes, an unregulated market is unsustainable for the same reason an unregulated society is-the tendency of man towards greed and dishonesty. We have actually not had a truly free market since the early 20th century, if even then. What we have had is varying degrees of government meddling and tinkering depending on which political party is in power at the time, sometimes producing good results and just as often not. This really got into gear during the Wilson presidency when the fascist philosophy of Mussolini was in vogue with economists and political leaders in much of the west, and it went into overdrive during the Depression of the 1930s. Even at that, the difference in the results of economic policy between the two major governing parties for the past twenty years has been negligible. Both have become proponents of big government and an increasing blurring of the lines between government and industry. They only disagree on which parts of government to grow, and which industries to punish and which to prop up. This is why deficits have ballooned under every presidency and every congress since the 70s.

 

 

For the record - I agree 100% with everything you've said here. You really were trying to get my goat weren't you?

[BlueStrat]

For the record - I agree 100% with everything you've said here. You really were trying to get my goat weren't you?

 

Thanks and maybe a little.

 

FWIW I lost faith in Bush (what little I had) several years ago and was not thrilled at all with McCain. I'm an equal opportunity politician basher! I just chose Obama to pick on because he is so widely regarded as some sort of messiah. To me that's just silly and dangerous in equal amounts.

 

Frankly I have lost any hope or trust for any politicians or political solutions.

 

What any of this has to do with $1.00 CDs....I forget now.

 

 

Edit: Since you issued an apology, I will as well-I should not have called you a douche. You probably aren't and you sound like a pretty reasonable guy.

[gayforjesus]

just clicking on this thread, before i realized there had been a big discussion about your avatar, i sat here wondering, "is that racist, or just not very funny?"

personally, i believe that in these days of cynicism and fear, that it is inappropriate to pick on someone for putting their hope in a leader. that the act of finding personal strength from observing the life of someone who has brought faith back to the lives of millions is a wonderful, nay, sacred occasion and one that should be celebrated. and if anyone believes otherwise, i shall thrust my sword of debate into the arena, challenging their assumptions and pushing them harder and harder and, yes, harder towards the truth. my oratory shall climax in a glorious triumph of the human spirit. and then i will take a nap.

[richardmac]

That's just amusing on so many levels. That someone with the screen name "gayforjesus" would feel that someone else's avatar was inappropriate. I think gayforjesus is a funny screen name, don't get me wrong. Some would obviously take offense.

 

I have to give props for anyone who uses the word "nay" in a post. That's awesome. In the middle of that oratory is a point that I find myself agreeing with. Americans have lost all faith in almost all politicians, and for some reason, have rediscovered that faith in Obama. I think it's nice to see people finally being positive for a change. I'm pretty sure I know at least part of the reason why - our last President was the worst speaker (as a President) in my lifetime, easily, by far. He mispronounced words, he came across as a bumbling idiot. Like Obama or hate him, he can give a good speech. Though he should take the phrase "Now, let me be perfectly clear" out of his future speeches, because he says it too much.

 

No one can do what people are magically expecting Obama to do. We'll see how he does. Eww, let's get back to talking about music. Politics and religion are nasty Internet forum subjects.

[ermghoti II]

 

just clicking on this thread, before i realized there had been a big discussion about your avatar, i sat here wondering, "is that racist, or just not very funny?" personally, i believe that in these days of cynicism and fear, that it is inappropriate to pick on someone for putting their hope in a leader. that the act of finding personal strength from observing the life of someone who has brought faith back to the lives of millions is a wonderful, nay, sacred occasion and one that should be celebrated. and if anyone believes otherwise, i shall thrust my sword of debate into the arena, challenging their assumptions and pushing them harder and harder and, yes, harder towards the truth. my oratory shall climax in a glorious triumph of the human spirit. and then i will take a nap.

 

 

Ineffective troll is ineffective.

[Lionslicer]

 

What any of this has to do with $1.00 CDs....I forget now.

 

Yeah, sorry - back on topic...

 

So I do think that the topic of price is a huge issue for musicians today and I do think that, in some cases, music prices are too high.

 

Part of the problem is the "one-size-fits-all" legacy mindset that the labels have left us with. Yes, you have your bargain bins and loss leaders, but generally, we think of new CDs as costing the same no matter who the band is. This is one way that the power of the market is skirted in the interest of making it easy for labels/distributors/etc to run their business. Even a fan would have to admit that the relative value of Dark Side of the Moon is higher than Animals (personally, animals is my favorite, but you get the point).

 

In the same way, and more importantly, you have to look at the target market for your music. If you are a blues bar band trying to make a blue collar living, most of your target market are likely older adults who have been throwing down for drinks all night while you rocked 'em - it is hardly a stretch to ask them to throw down a 10spot for your CD. I'd advise against $12 (or whatever) just because you want to make it easy for them to pull a bill out of their pocket. Now, if you are a death metal band playing all ages shows, your average customer is likely a kid with minimal cash. You will likely sell four times as many CDs at 5$ as opposed to $10. I think if you are selling MP3s online and you are a nobody band that's trying to get noticed, I'd say lowball the hell out of it or better yet, give it away for an email address and build your list.

 

All of the above is applicable to the "local level" band. Going back to labels and their pricing schemes, I think that the price is simply too high and I think it is a huge issue. There is some merit to the argument that the average price of a CD hasn't kept up with inflation, but there is another side that many fail to consider: %of your target market's entertainment dollar. If your target market is 12-22, understand that their average level of income has in no way kept up with inflation. When I was a kid, I paid $7 for an album and a $1.5 for a blank tape to record it on. I made $6 an hour working at a car wash. CDs retail for $14 on average (that's a guess because I haven't bought a new major label CD in over 10 years) - how much does a 16 year old kid make per hour today? Not much more if any. Sure a 22 year old can make decent money, but they generally have much more competing for their entertainment dollar. I can't stress the importance of those young kids (obviously depends a lot on your music style). When I was 14 years old, music was EVERYTHING to me. I wasn't getting laid yet, I couldn't drive and video games were no where near as enticing as they are today. I went through an old box of records today and found a metalica bootleg from 84 - the pricetag was $25! (edit: woot! this is their first bootleg and worth $200) That was equal to 4 hours of work for me at the time! Not only do those kids love music more than adults with other concerns, but they grow up into adults who usually find themselves going back to their old music, thus extending the timespan that your band can have them as customers. The fact that cheesy hair metal bands can still make money is directly attributable to this reality.

 

The other issue is perceived value. Under the label's watch, they have allowed it to shrink to "not much." Those $7 albums morphed quickly into $12.99 CDs - the argument from the labels was that they had to "retool," and the assumption was that the price would come down. They went up. And 12-22 year old income didn't. Then used CDs caught on (when I discovered Rasputin Records in Berkeley and their used CDs, I stopped buying new - period) soon after that came burners and then MP3s. Downloading MP3s for free then was only good sense considering the number of times I bought CDs that had only one good song on it. It took a damn long time for the iTunes model to come about - during that time the perceived value of a CD dropped precipitously. As I emerged into adulthood, I started feeling guilty because I realized that ascribing a $0 value to music hurts many artists. Then Lars had to open his fat mouth and my guilt faded for a long while. I was a big tape trader back in the day and metallica owed their early success to people like me who would send their demo all around the world. {censored} you Lars - stop selling your {censored} like buggy whips. It is really those big established artists who could have forced change on the industry, but they were too busy sucking on the corporate tit.

 

Now I am 40 and could buy one CD a day and not blink an eye, but I don't. Because I feel like I am getting ripped off paying $14 for a CD or a buck a song for an MP3 (right or wrong doesn't matter - I am talking about the pragmatic reality here). If a CD cost $6, I would be buying them with abandon - compare that to me buying none at $14. If you are selling me compressed files, it better be 1/2 that. Now, if you want to make more money off me, you should give me more. Sell me a CD for $20 that includes a code to let me into the "special" part of your website where I can download live shows off the board for free and get advance tickets, etc. You have to make it so people don't feel like they are getting ripped off. It's unfortunate that artists gave up control over their precious perceived value to corporations that are forced to focus on quarterly results instead of the big picture.

[gayforjesus]

 

Ineffective troll is ineffective.

 

 

it was just a joke. an incredibly transparent one that you seem to have missed.

[tim_7string]

 

Now I am 40 and could buy one CD a day and not blink an eye, but I don't. Because I feel like I am getting ripped off paying $14 for a CD or a buck a song for an MP3 (right or wrong doesn't matter - I am talking about the pragmatic reality here). If a CD cost $6, I would be buying them with abandon - compare that to me buying non at $14. If you are selling me compressed files, it better be 1/2 that. Now, if you want to make more money off me, you should give me more. Sell me a CD for $20 that includes a code to let me into the "special" part of your website where I can download live shows off the board for free and get advance tickets, etc. You have to make it so people don't feel like they are getting ripped off. It's unfortunate that artists gave up control over their precious perceived value to corporations that are forced to focus on quarterly results instead of the big picture.

 

 

I did that very thing last weekend. I went out of town to Minot and the local CD/video store was selling a bunch of hair metal CDs for only $5.99-6.99! Brand new!! I stocked up on Dokken's 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums, Warran'ts first album (extended with extra tracks) and bought a used Neil Young & Crazy Horse CD. I spent nearly $32 in all. At regular prices, I would have been lucky to have bought two new CDs.

 

I also agree with much of what you are saying here, even though I only focused on this small portion of it.

[ermghoti II]

 

it was just a joke. an incredibly transparent one that you seem to have missed.

 

 

Unfunny joke was unfunny.

[gayforjesus]

i'll try harder next time. and harder the time after that. and then i'll take a nap.

[richardmac]

I think we should tax people standing in water!

 

Um...

 

Lionslicer's point about different pricing makes sense to me. That's pretty much exactly why I charge $5 for a CD live. I wasn't the first local guy to do it... I was always charging $10, like a lot of other solo singer/songwriters. A friend of mine started charging $5 and he seemed to be selling a lot. Once I switched prices, I started selling 4 times as many, like I said. But if I were to play at some swanky place, you can bet I'd ask $10.

 

However, I personally don't feel like I'm getting ripped off at a buck a song, or ten bucks for a CD. To me, ten bucks feels about right. 18 bucks a CD is a rip off, to me. I've bought a lot of albums online via iTunes for $9.99. I'm rather used to it.