Members kwakatak Posted February 12, 2006 Members Share Posted February 12, 2006 I'm considering putting the less-expensive, drill-in type of JLD on my Takamine F-360 and am wondering if this will interfere with the K&K's transducer placement. I'd say that installing the JLD is necessary but not urgent so if it's advisable I may just go with the K&K installation first. Has anyone ever put both of these on their guitar though? If so, would it be better to just install the JLD first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 13, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 Tough question kwak. Looks like the Pure Western mounts just ahead of the bridge pins, between the pins and the X-brace. Here's the JLD. Looks like a pain in the ass. I'd say the middle trans of the k&k and the JLD would need about the same spot under the bridge. kwak, I think you need a new guitar.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 13, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 Crap. Isn't there a K&K with only 2 transducers though? The bridge ain't about to slingshot off but it's crackin' no doubt about it. I agree it's time for a new guitar. I ain't done tinkering with this one yet, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kkchristy Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 The K&K pickups should be installed directly on the soundboard in the case of a Bridge Doctor. The Twin Spot Classic internal would be the two transducer option, or the dedicated guitar pickup, Pure Western (mini size) is recommended. The placement has worked well directly behind the bridge, but experimenting a bit is good also.Hope this helps! Best,Christy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 there you go... right from the source... there is a two pad system though... used to be at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 kwakatak Somewhere in a drawer I've got one of the pin type Bridge Doc's that I would part with for penny's on the dollar. Put it in my 12 string - didn't fix the problem and created some of its own. Can't tell you about making it work with the p/u's but if you are interested let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 13, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 You ain't kidding Clipidty! Thanks for the reply, kkchristy! THe price up the pickup might actually exceed the value of the guitar when I get done with it though - read below. FK - Re: the JLD. That's certainly an interesting proposition but I'm gonna pass. The brass pins are just not my thing. Besides, I've already taken a drill to my Tak with horrific results (used a drill bit instead of a router to enlarge the peghead holes in the headstock) so one more chunk of rosewood is no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 13, 2006 Members Share Posted February 13, 2006 Originally posted by kwakatak The brass pins are just not my thing. Besides, I've already taken a drill to my Tak with horrific results (used a drill bit instead of a router to enlarge the peghead holes in the headstock) so one more chunk of rosewood is no big deal. The brass pins are a terrible design - really changes the string break angle (for the worse). I just couldn't bear to take a drill to the bridge of a 25 year old martin. Glad I didn't - when I had the neck reset it not only fixed the action but also the bulging bridge and lower bout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller The brass pins are a terrible design - really changes the string break angle (for the worse). I just couldn't bear to take a drill to the bridge of a 25 year old martin. Glad I didn't - when I had the neck reset it not only fixed the action but also the bulging bridge and lower bout. It sounds like your Martin had the same exact problem as my Takamine - hence the need for a JLD. The big difference is that a neck reset on a 25 year old Martin is money well-spent whereas a $300 neck reset on a $300 Takamine just didn't add up. The way I look at it, my guitar was made to be played by somebody who knows how to play (it's better than an entry level guitar) but can't be bothered with a big price tag or be anal about humidification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 14, 2006 Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 Originally posted by kwakatak It sounds like your Martin had the same exact problem as my Takamine - hence the need for a JLD. The big difference is that a neck reset on a 25 year old Martin is money well-spent whereas a $300 neck reset on a $300 Takamine just didn't add up. The way I look at it, my guitar was made to be played by somebody who knows how to play (it's better than an entry level guitar) but can't be bothered with a big price tag or be anal about humidification. Well, yes and no. The Martin had the classic signs of needing a reset - straightedge down the neck was 1/8 below the bridge, saddle down to nothing to get playable action - but also the bridge was pulling up from the top and the lower bout was really bulged. I thought the JLD would fix the bout and pull the bridge back down (and it did somewhat) but the string break angle was so high with the brass pins (the back set of stings barely touched the saddle) so I did get it reset. I had the bridge reglued and the lower bout fixed itself. The old 12'er is very playable now without the Doc. In my opinion, unless it is designed into the guitar (is it Breedlove that uses them?) the JLD is a bandaid and doesn't really fix the problem. Is your Tak worth fixing right - maybe. I assume it is a dovetail neck joint - if so you are looking at 300 or so to have it done. If the neck is bolt on (MT) a reset is no big deal. Having the bridge reglued isn't that big a deal but you want to have the right cauls to clamp it without damage. I'll be interested in your experience with the Bridge Doc but it may not fix your problem and you may still be faced with doing the reset. Or you can just make the Tak your dedicated slide axe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 I definitely do need a neck reset but it would cost more than the guitar is worth. I've already have work done to it a couple of years ago by a tech that got the guitar back into decent shape. I think I'm just gonna take it back to him. It's overdue for a setup and he should probably take a look to see how his handiwork has held up anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 14, 2006 Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 Remember, if you want to try a Bridge Doc I could send you mine. You could see if it helps and if you want to make it permanent - then buy the other kind and send mine back. However if your bridge is pulling up the screw in kind would help that too without regluing and they are only about 25 bucks at StewMac. If you look at the pics on the StewMac website you can see what I'm talking about on the string break angle - the screw in kind is superior here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 I think a pic is in order. This was taken after I had some budget-minded repairs done to it two years ago. Note that the bridge was shaved but the bellied/concave areas are still there. The work done on the bridge fixed the symptom but I don't think it fixed the problem. The bridge is still pretty firm but the lean on that saddle just bugs me. BTW - the top is laminated too. I thought they weren't supposed to do this? *sigh* JT's right - time for a new guitar. My wife's ignorant and I have my own credit card. It would be easy to switch it with a Martin D-28, don't ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 14, 2006 Members Share Posted February 14, 2006 kwakatak Take one more pic and post it when you have a chance. Lay a 24" straight edge down the fingerboard between the 3rd and 4th strings and shoot one just like your bridge pic showing where the end hits the bridge. The ideal, as you know, is to just kiss the top of the bridge - if it is down towards the top a reset is called for. It looks like your saddle is pretty low and if the bridge has already been shaved the reset might be your only option. Also look inside at the head block - if there are any bolts you may have an MT neck which is easy (and cheap) to fix. If there is a label (like Taylors) pull it off or feel for recessed screw heads. The way the bridge and top has rotated a JLD might actually work and would be worth the $25 investment. A fine old lawsuit Tak like that should be preserved if you can. Maybe you can find a budding luthier in your area who needs to practice his resetting - much better to learn on something like than that prewar Herringbone. I'm sort of in that book - I've built a couple of guitars and feel I understand the whole dovetail neck joint, but when it came to fixing both my Martins I sent them away. I would love to try something like your Tak or an old Yamaha. And yea, time to look for that D-28. Just don't buy an old one that needs a neck reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 15, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 15, 2006 I took your advice and did the straight rule thing. The neck angle is right on the money - or at least close enough for me. I also referred to Frank Ford's page on the subject over at frets.com: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html Pictures are as follows: 1. 18" Straight edge along fretboard to bridge: 2. Measurement at the 12th fret (reads just below 4/32"): No picture available; wouldn't focus properly. 3. Measurement of the low E string at the bridge (reads just above 1/2"): 4. Detail of the tail end of the bridge. Now here's what's got me concerned. You can't really see it, so let me describe what I'm seeing. The initial crack shows a sliver of the unfinished spruce underneath. Beyond that (in the shadow) the bridge is clearly beginning to lift up for the second time since I've owned it and just two years after the repair. 5. Detail of the heel block. No bolts but lots of glue mess from the repair. There never was a paper certificate; the serial number is stamped on the block and the model number is stamped on the centerline strip just Martin does. This guitar is hardly vintage and I've played it hard for 10+ years. FWIW I enjoy playing this guitar and it's got some good memories associated with it, but it bugs me that things like this happen no matter how careful I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 16, 2006 Members Share Posted February 16, 2006 Good pics and it changes my thoughts somewhat. First, the disclaimer, I am not a luthier (maybe bjorn-fjord could chime in here), but I've built a dovetail neck guitar, own a few more that have been worked on by some of the best, and I've read and studied as much as I can on the subject (damn Internet anyway). To my untrained eyes your neck angle is pretty good and it is a good thing since looking at the neck block you do have a dovetail joint (interesting that your Tak has a Martin style truss rod). But the straight edge and string height look pretty good. The saddle also looks like it is not shaved down too much - so I think your issues really are the bridge itself. The pic of measuring the string height is pretty dramatic - look at the gap under the middle of the rule. It looks like the bridge is lower on the treble side and you say it has been shaved. The bridge is normally glued on with white glue (Elmers) instead of yellow (AR) so it can be removed - a very thin scraper and some heat might do the trick. You could clean it up and reglue it or try to find a replacement from Stew Mac or LMI. The position of the bridge is absolutely critical (measure the old one before you remove it and I can send you the measurements if you tell me the scale lenght) and you will need to make clamping cauls for both the underside (so you don't crush braces) and the bridge (so you get even clamping pressure) - again I can send you some information. It will take about three deep clamps. You could then cut a new saddle and install your K&K (remember your original question?). I also have come completely around on the JDL and think it probably would help in your situation. The screw in kind is about $25 from StewMac (or JDL) and could help clamp the bridge back down as well as correcting the tilt I see in the top. You will have to drill a couple of holes thru the bridge but I don't see that as an issue on the Tak. I guess I would try that before doing anything else. I don't know how that would affect the K&K install - the bridge doc shouldn't change the saddle slot itself but does put some mechanism inside the guitar and the tension post does go back and push on the heel block (where you would run your cable to the endpin jack). Last, you said the top was plywood but it does look solid to me. One way to confirm that is to look for some grain pattern on the top and try to find it on the inside with a mirror if you can't tell from the edge of the soundhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 16, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2006 I'm positive it's a laminated top. The model designation would read "F-360S" mine only read "F-360" Here are some details of the cross-section at the soundhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pipedwho Posted February 16, 2006 Members Share Posted February 16, 2006 I have an EF-340 from 1988 and it just reads 'EF-340' - it is definitely a solid top. Have you verified that your top is laminated/solid with askus@takamine.com? The 'S' convention to indicate solid is not strictly adhered to at Tak. I also had a beautiful Takamine LTD-90 - all laminated koa. Very nice guitar. Other LTD models are solid tops - no 'S' added to the model number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 16, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2006 Note the detail of the edge of the soundhole above, especially the second one. To me it looks like there's a central layer that has a grain that runs perpendicular to the outer layers. From what I've read, that's a strong indication of a laminated top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted February 16, 2006 Members Share Posted February 16, 2006 Getting the K&K would still be cheaper than a new guitar. If the action is a problem, looks like you've got plenty of saddle left. You could sand it down, put on the K&K, and still get another year out of it. Meanwhile, find a shoebox and start a Larri fund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2006 Originally posted by JasmineTea Getting the K&K would still be cheaper than a new guitar. If the action is a problem, looks like you've got plenty of saddle left. You could sand it down, put on the K&K, and still get another year out of it.Meanwhile, find a shoebox and start a Larri fund. Way ahead of you. I'm just second guessing myself on the K&K I guess. The action is just right and the bridge has looked like this for 2 years so I guess I could live with it. It should last me quite a few more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted February 17, 2006 Members Share Posted February 17, 2006 you could do the standard size K&K so that you can do the non-permanant install... i almost regret going permanant on my tak, but whatever, you can't second guess things like that after the fact... point being, you could take it out and put it in your next guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.