Members T.B. Posted June 1, 2007 Members Share Posted June 1, 2007 A trip to my guitar tech always leads me to the Mom & Pop guitar store below. I have a chance to play newly arrived A&Ls, Martins, Larrivee, Taylor's, Seagulls, Yamaha's, an assortment of used high-end small guitar builders, and brands/models for whatever reason, hang around for awhile. Well today my trusted "guitar shop player" Martin D17 hog, was gone. Yep, that amazing D-17 found a home. The sales person told me a gentlemen bought it as a graduation present. I have no knowledge of the D17 production run but the shop had three and that one was the last to go. I did notice entry level and mid-level cost guitars dominated the stores current stock. During the booming 90's this store carried high-end Martins, Taylor's, Santa Cruz, and Yamaha's. They've carried a signature Martin or three but several years past, they've loaded up on entry/mid level stuff. It got me to thinking. It use to be said, "So goes GM so goes the nations economy". Since GM is treading water and housing appears to be our main economic barometer, maybe guitar shop sales should be included as an economic measuring stick. Trina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DonK Posted June 1, 2007 Members Share Posted June 1, 2007 Same thing happened to me. A local shop I frequent had a mint (but used) D-17 hanging for nearly a year. I played it many times; then when I eventually decided to spring for it, I discovered it was sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan Hall Posted June 1, 2007 Members Share Posted June 1, 2007 What EVER you do, don't mention high end American guitars around here. You'll get in more trouble than you can deal with faster than you can say Ho Chi Minh. I guess Martin sold a few last year. Good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members athomas Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 Hopefully the guitar industry doesn't turn out like the car industry where the quality of high-end cars like Mercedes have really gone down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 What EVER you do, don't mention high end American guitars around here. You'll get in more trouble than you can deal with faster than you can say Ho Chi Minh. Can't imagine why you would say that? Now I just hope the reference to Ho Chi Minh does not spark a political debate over the relative merits of socialism v. capitalism as it relates to the production of guitars and industrial advancements in a post Cold War world economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 Can't imagine why you would say that? Now I just hope the reference to Ho Chi Minh does not spark a political debate over the relative merits of socialism v. capitalism as it relates to the production of guitars and industrial advancements in a post Cold War world economy. Or the comparison of Institutionized Socialism to the relative merits of a life dominated by the Military-Industrial Complex, as it relates to flat-top guitars (the proletariats axe of choice...arch-tops are for bourgeois cork-sniffers! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 I think it has alot to do with the stores philosophy - if their in a tight jam they sell 100 dollar chinese guitars - they make 40 or 50 bucks easy and out the door - they keep their doors open -- on the other hand a small luthier not far from their only sells top end stuff( besides his own high quality guitars and repairs )When you go to his shop , knowing he only sells top end stuff, its usually because your a serious player looking for a serious instrument - The only reason i walk into your average music store is to get a set of strings or some other common item -Im way past the bargain basement stuff -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 I think it has alot to do with the stores philosophy - if their in a tight jam they sell 100 dollar chinese guitars - they make 40 or 50 bucks easy and out the door - they keep their doors open -- on the other hand a small luthier not far from their only sells top end stuff( besides his own high quality guitars and repairs )When you go to his shop , knowing he only sells top end stuff, its usually because your a serious player looking for a serious instrument - The only reason i walk into your average music store is to get a set of strings or some other common item -Im way past the bargain basement stuff -- Speaking of danged cork-sniffin' bourgeoissie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 Dan Hall: "What EVER you do, don't mention high end American guitars around here. You'll get in more trouble than you can deal with faster than you can say Ho Chi Minh." That name rings a bell...I think I've heard it before. TAH: Or the comparison of Institutionized Socialism to the relative merits of a life dominated by the Military-Industrial Complex, as it relates to flat-top guitars (the proletariats axe of choice...arch-tops are for bourgeois cork-sniffers! I can live like a bourgeois cork sniffer in poverty-stricken Thanh Pho Ho Chi Minh. (Ho Chi Minh City). Cost of living is so low, even I'm rich over here. In fact, except for the traffic and the pollution, and the sanitation problems, life's pretty good in Saigon for a WGIS (white guy in a suit). In Asia the WGIS species is thriving along with other species. Increasingly, one sees members of the IGIS (Indian guys in suits) on Saigon streets. My boss in fact, is an IGIS. Right now, I'm eating in the little Tokyo area of Le Thanh Ton Street, so there are plenty of JGIS to be seen. And the Japanese girls are the hottest foreign chicks in town. There are plenty of 'em here too. The Japanese are re-invading Vietnam, just in the nick of time! Now, if I could just somehow ditch Ms. Mekong Delta bikini finalist, who has attached herself to my hip, I'd take Japanese lessons.----BTW, I played one of those Mahogany Martins before Katrina in 2005. I really liked that guitar. It's the only Martin guitar that sounded so good to my ears, I wanted to buy it. Since I gave the old Guild back to my son, I'll be shopping one of these days for a Hawg in the States. And those Martins hogs are #1 on my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted June 2, 2007 Members Share Posted June 2, 2007 See whatcha did Dan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted June 3, 2007 Members Share Posted June 3, 2007 TAH: I can live like a bourgeois cork sniffer in poverty-stricken Thanh Pho Ho Chi Minh. (Ho Chi Minh City). Cost of living is so low, even I'm rich over here. In fact, except for the traffic and the pollution, and the sanitation problems, life's pretty good in Saigon for a WGIS (white guy in a suit). In Asia the WGIS species is thriving along with other species. Increasingly, one sees members of the IGIS (Indian guys in suits) on Saigon streets. My boss in fact, is an IGIS. Right now, I'm eating in the little Tokyo area of Le Thanh Ton Street, so there are plenty of JGIS to be seen. And the Japanese girls are the hottest foreign chicks in town. There are plenty of 'em here too. The Japanese are re-invading Vietnam, just in the nick of time! Now, if I could just somehow ditch Ms. Mekong Delta bikini finalist, who has attached herself to my hip, I'd take Japanese lessons. I've heard that one can live like a king most inexpensively over there...gotta go see for myself, one o' these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted June 3, 2007 Members Share Posted June 3, 2007 TAH - yes. You need to give me a shout before you come. I'll show you the routine and tell you what to avoid. Most things are unbelievably cheap. I bought a couple of tailor-made suits last week. (If I'm gonna be a WGIS, tailor-made suits are the uniform.) One Cashmere 3 piece light grey and one white linen, 3 piece. Cost for 2 = $180 USD. The lady charged me too much for the vests. I don't know why a vest should cost $25 - if the whole damned suit only costs $65. But you gotta be careful. This is a very poor country. The fabric may say, "Made in Italy" or "Made in England". But everything is counterfeit in Vietnam except the fish sauce. I only buy solid color suits. The pin stripes & the plaids can only last 2 or 3 stateside dry-cleanings. Then the dyes start to bleed into the fabric. Solid colors don't bleed. They just fade. I do recommend having good stateside guitars restored here though - if you can buy a plane ticket. In retrospect, the luthier did a fabulous job restoring my son's 35 year old Guild. Buying new guitars here OTOH, carries the same pitfalls as buying new suits. If you live in a dry climate and don't humidify your instrument - you may get to watch your guitar crack, piece-by-piece. The crowding and pollution make this a insane place. A long time ago, this was a lovely town to walk around in. Very French colonial. That's all vanishing fast. Today, every street is clogged with motorcycles and exhaust fumes. Everybody has sinus headaches. I see motorcycle wrecks and injuries at least twice every week. Manhattan is slow motion compared to Saigon. I'm long overdue for a vacation. If I can't go back to Louisiana - I'll head out to Cambodia and do some fishing in the Ton Le Sap this summer. It's rainy season. Cambodia is quiet and the fish in the Mekong & its tributaries are beyond huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members YogurtKing Posted June 3, 2007 Members Share Posted June 3, 2007 A lot of things going on here. First of all, there will always be luthiers who make superb hand-made instruments for people who wish to play them. Second of all, those kinds of consumers are the overwhelming minority - everyone else just wants decent tone at cutthroat prices. Third of all, I firmly believe that people who think an Asian-made or Mexican-made guitar is of lower quality than an American-made instrument is a racist. Fourth of all, musicians have this horrible disease that makes them believe that expensive = quality regardless of the facts of the matter. It is a very good thing that great guitars can be had for a few hundred bucks in this day and age. That is an indication of how far the world economy has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted June 3, 2007 Members Share Posted June 3, 2007 I don't think anyone is a racist for wanting to buy American or to buy from their home country. Some elements of Asian guitars - tuners for instance - aren't as good. (*Gotoh excepted.) But I think the market forces are pushing guitar prices lower everywhere. There a lot of guitars for sale everywhere, Mexico, USA, Asia, Brazil. There are millions...maybe hundreds of millions of guitars waiting for buyers. There are fewer buyers than there are guitars for sale. I imagine this is especially true of high-end guitars. Therefore, I think guitars around the world are overpriced when viewed from a supply/demand perspective. What do you get for the extra money? Well compared with Vietnam, you get decent tuners* on high-end guitars. In Vietnam you get crap Korean tuners. And if you get a free Western-world setup free with the high end guitar, that's a plus also. (*At least you sure as Hell ought to get better tuners!) If you live in a dry climate, there is less of a worry about dryness cracking your guitar up w/a high-end instrument. But guitars I've bought for clients & family members in Houston, Louisiana and Florida never had any problems anyway. Maple & Vietnamese Rosewood appear to be pretty good bets for longevity. But on a high-end guitar, you probably get a better quality wood also**. (**At least, you sure as Hell ought to!) But I just bought a set of Grover Sta-tites for my slothead IR/Cedar Jumbo. Counting customs, they cost around $70. So that kicks my $350 IR/Cedar jumbo (w/p'up) up to about $420. I'm getting the Cedar top re-stained too. Add another $100. $520 for a true Jumbo, Indian Rosewood B&S, Cedar top, Fishman Prefix pickup & Grover Sta-Tite tuners. A J-200 would cost 4x that. Or I compare the difference between my $420 Maple dread (w/tuners & pickup) and a $3100 Taylor 814ce. I love the Taylor 814ce. I just loved the way it felt and fit into my arms & lap. But I didn't love the way it sounded. And I wouldn't buy one. I'd rather record with my inexpensive Maple dread. It sounds better. It records better. Ditto for all the other high-end guitars I've recorded with. The Maple dread just records better on the kind of music I make. What else do you get for the extra cost of a high end? You get some name brand prestige and maybe resale value. But I suspect I can sell the guitars I've bought here - for a lot more than what I paid for them***. That's not true when you buy a new Gibson, Taylor or Martin. (***I don't sell guitars. Don't ask. I have enough headaches already. I don't need another.) Prestige? I get that a lot of curious viewers who admire my gawdy, hand-made guitars. You get a reputable company**** with a high-end guitar. That company will repair your instrument free of charge with a high-end guitar. (****At least, it sure as Hell ought to.) That's probably the most important thing you are paying for with a high-end. It's hit or miss with third-world hand-made guitars. Either they last - or you're screwed. But you can buy lower-priced guitars that come from reputable companies too. The Martin D-17 and the Guild GAD's are a great examples. So are you really getting your money's worth with a $3100 Taylor? I've already voted with my passport & my wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T.B. Posted June 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 4, 2007 See whatcha did Dan? Yea, see whatcha did Dan? Actually my thoughts where a bit less philosophical if not a bit facetious. That being said I just seem to me some shops that once carried a high volume of high price guitars had switched to entry level/mid level stuff because of the cooling of the economy. For sure high-end guitars will always have a customer base irrespective of the fluctuation of the economy. It just appeared, during the red hot economy of the 90's, local guitar shops felt very confident they could stock and "move" guitars costing for thousands of dollars just as easily as they could with their "less costly" inventory. So, it got me to thinking..... could guitar sales be an economic indicator? Maybe I think too much. Trina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan Hall Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Yea, see whatcha did Dan? Actually my thoughts where a bit less philosophical if not a bit facetious. That being said I just seem to me some shops that once carried a high volume of high price guitars had switched to entry level/mid level stuff because of the cooling of the economy. For sure high-end guitars will always have a customer base irrespective of the fluctuation of the economy. It just appeared, during the red hot economy of the 90's, local guitar shops felt very confident they could stock and "move" guitars costing for thousands of dollars just as easily as they could with their "less costly" inventory. So, it got me to thinking..... could guitar sales be an economic indicator? Maybe I think too much. Trina I don't think you can think too much Trina. What it all boils down to is that the cheap stuff keeps getting better and some inexperienced or less critical folks overgeneralize about the old line guitars. My point will remain though that quality costs. Isacc Stearn most likely could have gotten some pretty sounds out of a $69 violin. No doubt though he would have preferred one of his Cremona instruments to one from China; no matter how dedicated and wonderful the Chinese craftsman might have been. The other thing that bugs me is the claim of authenticity. How does "Real German Spruce" get cheaper in Asia than it is right there where the trees are milled? Oh well. To each his own. I've communicated with John Walker about a J-185 copy. A Collings SJ is about a grand cheaper on the used market though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Birdy Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 It is a very good thing that great guitars can be had for a few hundred bucks in this day and age. That is an indication of how far the world economy has come. That's for sure. I lot of people think that buying a foreign guitar = one less sale for domestic manufacturers. But its not a zero sum game. I'm a marginal player (am I ever) if I didn't buy my el cheapo but high quality foreign made guitar on impulse I never would have played at all. I've been paying my long suffering guitar instructor $35 a week ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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