Members ChiyoDad Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 First off, let me tell you that I was a bit of a skeptic about switching from hard-plastic to bone on lower-end guitars. My assumptions were that: Any improvements would be imperceptible. If there were perceptible improvements, they still wouldn't be substantial enought to justify the cost ($31 from Bob Colosi or $75 from some shops). I decided to spend a little time today carving a new saddle. The saddle is made of typical ox bone and raises the action (of the 6th string) from 0.115 inches to 0.140 inches. The results were not stunning, but I am much less a skeptic. I can attest to the following: Sustain: Improved and I like it. There's one particular piece that I did't like playing with the plastic saddle because the sustain was weaker than a professional recording of that piece. By comparison, my CG171SF sounded flat. (Yeah. I know. A RECORDING ... performed by a PROFESSIONAL ... on a guitar that costs about $8000.) Anyway, the sustain on the CG171SF was improved enough that I LIKE playing it now. Tones and Overtones: Tonal quality seems the same. The overtones seem richer. It's a little hard to describe. When you fingerpick a nylon string at the 12th fret (rather than over the soundhole), you get what sounds to me as harp-like tones. I perceive traces of those tones now when I play over the soundhole. It's nothing pronounced, but I can hear a difference. Fingerpicking between the soundhole and the bridge (a flamenco technique) creates a much clearer "tinny" sound that works well for flamenco pieces. Volume: No perceptible increase to my ears. It might be there but I honestly cannot say whether what I'm hearing is increased volume or just my "digging in a little deeper". Playing "lightly" however doesn't seem as quiet as before but that might be due to improved sustain and overtones. So, yes, there is an improvement. Would I shell out $75 for a shop to make me a new saddle these results? Maybe. Would I shell out $31 for someone like Bob Colosi to make me one? Yes. Hope that helps some of you. Understandibly, after having gone through this experiment, I AM curious about what other materials might do but I don't think I want to spend $52 for fossilized walrus ivory. The improvement with bone seems satisfying enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sixgunner455 Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Good to know. Been thinking about doing that to a couple of nylon stringers I have. Where did you get the bone you used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wooglins Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 The best material available is Ostrich Bone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 There you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members martinipm Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Another testament to a good boning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiyoDad Posted March 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Where did you get the bone you used? I got a packs of saddle and nut blanks from a wholesaler in Kaoshiang, Taiwan. You can probably get single blanks from LMII, StewMac or on eBay. Carving your own saddle (at least to my preferences) is a lot of work, requires good tools, and leaves bone-dust all over the place. This is the fourth custom saddle that I have made. It's compensated, it's radiused to raise the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings, and I polished it to a full shine. Anyone who glances at it will be forgiven for thinking that it's molded plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djuna Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I couldn't agree more--I put a bone saddle in my FG700S and the difference is marked (although the original plastic saddle didn't fit well at all, so that may have contributed). Tone and sustain are worlds better with bone, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the upgrade for any guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sixgunner455 Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I got a packs of saddle and nut blanks from a wholesaler in Kaoshiang, Taiwan. You can probably get single blanks from LMII, StewMac or on eBay. Carving your own saddle (at least to my preferences) is a lot of work, requires good tools, and leaves bone-dust all over the place. This is the fourth custom saddle that I have made. It's compensated, it's radiused to raise the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings, and I polished it to a full shine. Anyone who glances at it will be forgiven for thinking that it's molded plastic. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigald18 Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 When I got my Yamaha CG201S the first thing I did was get rid of the plastic saddle and nut. I used TUSQ rather than bone and it worked extremely well. It did increase sustain, volume and improved the tone slightly. On my LJ6 I replaced the plastic with a compensated bone saddle and that made a really good guitar sound great. BigAl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I just automatically use bone for everything I make - it is inexpensive, easy to work with and works well. I keep thinking that someday I should do a saddle test (like the pin and string tests) but frankly it would be too much work, cost a bit more and there are some materials that I will not use for ethical reasons (all of the ivorys). I buy blanks from StewMac - pre-radiused and rough shaped they are pretty reasonable, then I do the final shaping with a belt sander, files, sandpaper and polish. You can safe a lot of work and buy one ready to go from Colosi - it will drop right in, be compensated and save a lot of effort. They only thing you'll need to do is adjust the action. I took a bunch of photos of making the nut and saddle for my latest 12 banger and offered to post a little how-to, but some smart ass said he didn't want to see any pictures of my nuts. That's OK with me and a whole lot easier. I'll add that the increased mass should help the sustain, and IMHO the stiffness of bone should be a little better lever to drive the top - I would expect more volume all else the same. Raising the action should also drive the top a little harder. Any change in tone probably comes from bone dampening different frequencies than plastic - probably hard to tell. I'm also going to guess that your intonation is a little better which means you will not be dampening as many of string vibration modes - probably what you hear in the richer overtones. Speaking of recording, whenever I'm noodling around with something like this I try to record before and after, keeping everything else the same. Use something like Audacity to both listen to the playing and to compare graphically - you can really see differences in magnitude (volume) and sustain. Good report and thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pschaafs Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Freeman, I for one and I'm sure others would love to see your photos of making the nut and saddle - I would like to see how you do it and learn from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiyoDad Posted March 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Raising the action should also drive the top a little harder. Any change in tone probably comes from bone dampening different frequencies than plastic - probably hard to tell. Freeman, is it possible that raising the action on the bass strings (increasing the break angle) will also impact the trebles? On my custom saddle, I kept the trebles at the same action but modified the shape to raise the basses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiyoDad Posted March 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I couldn't agree more--I put a bone saddle in my FG700S and the difference is marked (although the original plastic saddle didn't fit well at all, so that may have contributed). Tone and sustain are worlds better with bone, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the upgrade for any guitar. I may bone my FG720S next. I have lots of blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I replaced the plastic saddle on my CG171SF with bone the first week that I bought it. It was a huge improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Freeman, is it possible that raising the action on the bass strings (increasing the break angle) will also impact the trebles?On my custom saddle, I kept the trebles at the same action but modified the shape to raise the basses. The interactions of everything going on at the saddle could have all kinds of effects - I really don't know. Raising the action on some strings will certainly alter the overall balance between all the strings - what I would expect (but have no ancedotal evidenced to confirm) is that the bass would become louder with respect to the trebles, and if there are more overtones with a bass string you might hear that as a "treble" (if you are playing an E chord you have the three E strings vibrating at their fundimental and partials - if those partials (harmonics) increase because your intonation is better or that string is driving its part of the bridge better you might hear it in the other strings. I really don't know, just speculating..... The good part of this is that you hear a positive change and can describe it - that helps people who are thinking about making this kind of modification. Thanks for posting the observations. Also, I'll do a nut/saddle thing one of these days. I took a bunch of pics of the final setup on the Stella-clone but I've been having more fun playing than wanting to post pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiyoDad Posted March 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I reread that and realized that something seemed really wrong. For me even your starting action would have been on the high side, 0,149 is about 9/64 - I consider 6/64 (0.095) about right for the low E (Kimsey says 0.105), and 5/64 (0.080) for the high E (Kimsey agrees).If that is really the gap between the top of the fret and bottom of your low E string I'd be breaking out my slide... Kenny Hill states that 3.2mm (which is 0.126 ... or 0.130 when eyeballed on the StewMac tool) is his average for the 6th string on classical guitars. I've examined other luthier-made instruments and they are also at about 3.2mm. A flamenco should, of course, be even lower but isn't that is enabled by a change in the neck angle and a lower bridge design as well? The Yamaha, being a factory-made guitar, doesn't have those finer points. In any case, the higher action of the basses works well with my stronger attack and buzz-aversion. I feel that choosing one's action settings is always a compromise. Thanks for the feedback. I may experiment with a few more saddle designs. I might even try creating my own fully-compensated saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Total brain fart - of course it is a classical and yes, those are perfect numbers (when I built mine I either used 4mm bass and 3.5 treble or 3.5mm bass and 3mm treble. Sorry, I woke up this mornind and said "whoa baby, ChiyoDad's setup seems really high..." I think better after a good double Americano which I have now had..... Have you measured your intonation with a tuner? I really don't remember seeing much compensation on classicals but frankly I have very little experience with them. It makes sense that their higher action would stretch the strings a lot and make them go sharp, but also the fact that the strings are much closer in size as you go from low to high (compared to a steel string) means that you might not need as much compensation. Just curious how many cents sharp they go when you fret at 12. I also wonder how much the tie block affects a classical - mostly they are made of bone also but I've seen some with other materials as well as some with ball end strings. I always figured the tie block was more for wear and decoration, but then as I said, I really don't know much about gut strung gits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myz Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 Where do you find a reputable luthier to do this for you locally? I searched around the St. Louis area and I didn't find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myz Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 My saddle seems to be firmly glued in place, how do you remove and install saddles on classical guitars? By the way, I have CG171SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 Good thread, and congrats. It's hard to describe what a good boning does, but it does make your guitar "more" sounding. Just boned my Fake-28, as well as fitting ebony pins (pearl dot). Pins first, then bone. Kept the same strings on till I was done so that wouldn't be a factor in judging tonal improvement. I truly believe this will help any guitar to sound it's best. I think the pins and saddle blank cost about $25 total. The fitting is something anyone can do with rudimentary tools. Just takes time, and most of all patience. And you have to know when to quit. I'd pay someone $40 to do it. $75? I'll do it myself, thank you. I wouldn't mind seeng pics of Freeman doing it, as my method involves blisters, blood, a fair amount of beer and lot's of cussing. There's gotta be a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarVlog Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 My saddle seems to be firmly glued in place, how do you remove and install saddles on classical guitars? By the way, I have CG171SF I replaced my CG171SF saddle with bone too and the sustain is much better. The Yamaha saddles aren't glued. Is yours a used one? Maybe the previous owner glued it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myz Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 what improves a guitar more, a bone nut or bone saddle? How easy is it to replace the plastic nut compared to the plastic saddle? I have decided to remove my plastic saddle on my CG171SF and send it to Colosi, but should I do something with the plastic nut as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitarVlog Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 Saddle makes the biggest difference. The nut becomes irrelevant once you fret a note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted June 21, 2009 Members Share Posted June 21, 2009 Hey myz, I doubt it's glued. It may be just snug which is typical of how a saddle should be fitted. The saddle in my CG110CE doesn't have enough height to get a positive grip on it with fingers or any kind of cutting or regular pliers. If that's your situation I suggest getting a sharp-tipped tool such as an awl or stiff-bladed knife. Lay a pencil down on the wood bridge and use it as a fulcrum for the awl or knife. Place the tool over the pencil and the sharp tip against the back side of the saddle. Maintaining gentle pressure on the sharp tip against the saddle pry down on the tool handle to raise the tip that's against the saddle. Do this on one end of the saddle. If it moves, stop and repeat on the opposite side moving from side to side until enough material is above the bridge to gently grasp with a regular pair of slip-joint pliers. That's my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members myz Posted June 22, 2009 Members Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hey myz, I doubt it's glued. It may be just snug which is typical of how a saddle should be fitted. The saddle in my CG110CE doesn't have enough height to get a positive grip on it with fingers or any kind of cutting or regular pliers. If that's your situation I suggest getting a sharp-tipped tool such as an awl or stiff-bladed knife. Lay a pencil down on the wood bridge and use it as a fulcrum for the awl or knife. Place the tool over the pencil and the sharp tip against the back side of the saddle. Maintaining gentle pressure on the sharp tip against the saddle pry down on the tool handle to raise the tip that's against the saddle. Do this on one end of the saddle. If it moves, stop and repeat on the opposite side moving from side to side until enough material is above the bridge to gently grasp with a regular pair of slip-joint pliers. That's my $0.02. Will give it a try, thanks a lot. I will let you know how this goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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