Learning scales and modes. Do you recognize the modes???

[riffmeister]

King Crimson (Robert Fripp) had some outstanding compositions in the 70s using whole tone scales. A very "distinctive" sound, check it out performed by others years later:

 

acoustic:

 

 

electric (including whole tone power chords at the end!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNVvXR5adM

[Misha]

King Crimson (Robert Fripp) had some outstanding compositions in the 70s using whole tone scales. A very "distinctive" sound, check it out performed by others years later: acoustic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppg_m6r1uA0 electric (including whole tone power chords at the end!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNVvXR5adM

 

Wow!!

[andy thompson]

I Dont Particularly Like Modes A Lot...get the nmemonic

 

 

I think I am going to have to read Brahms post several hundred times, maybe I should have stopped at 3 blind mice.

 

What a gift to be able to understand music

[brahmz118]

Sorry if my last post was confusing. If there's anything I can try to clarify just let me know.

[andy thompson]

No, not confusing, well only because I dont know much theory.

 

It was inspiring and an insight into how much I need to progress, thank you

[andy thompson]

Well since you ask

 

D natural.....never heard of natural

 

Harmonic ideas...over my head completely

 

G parent...never heard of parent

 

I have a cursory knowledge of circle of fiths and suspect I need to direct my study here.

 

Any recommendations re books websites would be appreciated...thanks

[rhythmdoctor]

Aren't modes the exact same notes with different starting points? In other words, take C major for example - don't all the modes associated with C major have the same notes but they just start and end at different points?

 

At least, that's how I understand it, but I've never been a theory guy. I'm just curious because some replies indicate certain notes are flatted or sharpened and I don't beleive that to be the case. Just looking for clarity.

[seagullplayer77]

 

Well since you ask D natural.....never heard of natural

 

 

In music, a natural refers to a note that isn't sharp or flat. A D natural simply refers to a normal D, as opposed to D# (which is the same as Eb) or Db (which is the same as C#).

[mcmurray]

 

Do you recognize them when you hear songs? (This is my gold.) Are you comfortable with modes? Can you use them to improvise?

 

 

Yes and yes. Modes can be divided up into major modes and minor modes. This brings me to a question - how familiar are you with the major scale and the natural minor scale? Get these under your fingers and into your ears first.

 

Then, the rest of the modes are simply slight modifications to the major and natural minor scales. For example, the Dorian mode is simply a natural minor with a raised 6th.

[riffmeister]

 

Aren't modes the exact same notes with different starting points? In other words, take C major for example - don't all the modes associated with C major have the same notes but they just start and end at different points?

 

 

Yes, exactly.

 

A major scale is five whole steps and two half steps. A fun exercise would be to make new modes using alternate sequences of those five whole steps and two half steps.

 

Here is the "riffmeister mode": C-D-D#-F-F#-G#-A#-C

[Stackabones]

Yes, exactly. A major scale is five whole steps and two half steps. A fun exercise would be to make new modes using alternate sequences of those five whole steps and two half steps. Here is the "riffmeister mode": C-D-D#-F-F#-G#-A#-C

 

 

Or ... C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C, aka Locrian #2, which is the sixth mode of Eb Melodic Minor (Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D).

 

Just know the major scale and the three minor scales (or be able to tell that it's a minor scale you're hearing) -- everything else is just extra credit on jazz class homework.

[Stackabones]

 

I'll read ahead in a chart and adjust the ionian to an upcoming m7b5 thinking, "Okay, flat the 3 and 7 but mostly flat the 5!" This is probably a really goofy and cumbersome method but it is what is.

 

 

Nah ... if it works, it works.

 

btw, a m7b5 chord is just a rootless ninth chord (with the root being a third away from the chord's name).

 

Bm7b5 ... B D F A

G9 ... G B D F A

 

Just about anything you'd play over that 9th chord will work over that m7b5. Even something as humble as a G major/E minor pentatonic will work (though F major/D minor pentatonic is a little cooler imo). Pentatonics are wonder scales.

[Misha]

I'm pretty sure there is a free software that can generate backing tracks in the key of our choice. I just don't remember what it is. It would be perfect to practice scales and modes.

 

Any idea of the name of that software????

[Misha]

I think it's a drum software...

[slimp]

 

Well since you ask D natural.....never heard of natural Harmonic ideas...over my head completely G parent...never heard of parent I have a cursory knowledge of circle of fiths and suspect I need to direct my study here. Any recommendations re books websites would be appreciated...thanks

 

 

 

you need to read the idiots guide to music theory, very well written and easy to understand

 

Misha: a program called "band in a box" can do that but I don't think it is free

[brahmz118]

 

Well since you ask D natural.....never heard of natural Harmonic ideas...over my head completely G parent...never heard of parent I have a cursory knowledge of circle of fiths and suspect I need to direct my study here. Any recommendations re books websites would be appreciated...thanks

 

 

1) seagullplayer77 explained the Db vs D (natural) concept. In the Mad World example, the key initially sounds like F minor. F minor shares the same key signature as Ab major, so one might expect the chords and melody to be based on the notes Ab Bb C Db Eb F G. However, in that song there is no Db, only D. There is no Bb minor chord, only Bb major. Basically this means the song is not in F minor, but F dorian. (As I read over this I think it's no less confusing than my original post.)

 

2) Harmonic ideas / harmony - I'm just referring to the convention of stacking notes to create chords. In C major, for example, you stack the notes C - E - G to get the I chord, F - A - C to get the IV chord, and so on. If you follow the same strategy in F Dorian you produce F - Ab - C for a minor i chord, and Bb - D - F for a major IV chord.

 

3) The parent scale is the scale from which you can derive the modes. So C major is the parent scale to D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, etc. In reverse, if someone says 'F dorian' then you derive the key signature by recognizing that F dorian is essentially the ii of Eb major - i.e., Eb F G Ab Bb C D. (A parent scale isn't always major, could be a melodic minor scale as Stack points out above.)

 

Sorry if this is still not clear, but if there are details in my re-explanation that I could try to break down further let me know.

[andy thompson]

(As I read over this I think it's no less confusing than my original post.)

 

Its not you its me.

 

 

 

you need to read the idiots guide to music theory, very well written and easy to understand

 

Thanks for the recommendation, I think Ive jumped in half way along without a grounding in theory.

 

I got Ron Middlebrooks book on modes for the finger positions, mainly to make practising a little more musical but its more involved than I thought:eek:

 

Sorry if this is still not clear, but if there are details in my re-explanation that I could try to break down further let me know.

 

Its not fair to ask you to explain EVERYTHING when IM TOO LAZY TO READ A BOOK, if after studying in greater detail I have specific questions then I will accept your kind offer, thanks:thu:

[Chordchunker]

 

Nah ... if it works, it works. btw, a m7b5 chord is just a rootless ninth chord (with the root being a third away from the chord's name). Bm7b5 ... B D F A

 

 

Also referred to as a half diminished.

 

Modes are great to learn and necessary in Jazz but if you get too caught up in it worrying about which mode (scale) to play over which chord you spend alot of time playing scales and patterns instead of making music, and your improvising will sound like you are playing scales and patterns instead of playing from the soul.

 

Django used the whole tone scale alot.

 

Coltrane was the master of the #5 (augmented).

[riffmeister]

Or ... C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C, aka Locrian #2, which is the sixth mode of Eb Melodic Minor (Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D). Just know the major scale and the three minor scales (or be able to tell that it's a minor scale you're hearing) -- everything else is just extra credit on jazz class homework.

 

Uh oh......back to the books for me!

 

h = half step

w = whole step

 

here are all of the possible permutations:

 

hhwwwww

hwhwwww

hwwhwww

hwwwhww

hwwwwhw

hwwwwwh

whhwwww

whwhwww

whwwhww

whwwwhw

whwwwwh

wwhhwww

wwhwhww

wwhwwhw

wwhwwwh

wwwhhww

wwwhwhw

wwwhwwh

wwwwhhw

wwwwhwh

wwwwwhh

 

Are there any I can name after myself?

[Misha]

Had my 2 hours lesson today: all about scales and modes!

 

It's much clearer now!

 

Now I know what are the major scale, the three minor scales, the minor pentatonic scale, the major pentatonic scale and the blue scale... Of course, I don't know them by heart all around the neck... yet!

 

My teacher taught me to get to the minor scales by adding notes to the pentatonic minor scale. I will work on that!

 

The software I would need is Band in a Box... I'm a PC user though. I will see how it costs. (I will look for a trial version first.)

 

Now, it's time for a bit of practice!

[codecontra]

My "problem" with modes and what a lot of people don't tell you out of the gate is that they are pretty much worthless by themselves. If you know your major scale, then you know all the modes, period. You are just starting on a different note of the scale. Big deal. It doesn't take much practice to do this. Play a C major scale. Now play it again, but start on the D note. You are playing D Dorian. Does it sound different? No? Doesn't sound much different to me either.

 

The trick is learning what chords to play the modes over. This is the secret. And it is not as simple as just playing a C major scale over a D minor chord and calling it D Dorian. Technically it is D Dorian, but you will find that certain chords and chord progressions or vamps REALLY bring out the sound of the different modes, like using an add9 or add9/#11 with the Lydian scale. This is where it gets a bit difficult, but this is the key to modes.

[stomias]

 

My "problem" with modes and what a lot of people don't tell you out of the gate is that they are pretty much worthless by themselves. If you know your major scale, then you know all the modes, period. You are just starting on a different note of the scale. Big deal. It doesn't take much practice to do this. Play a C major scale. Now play it again, but start on the D note. You are playing D Dorian. Does it sound different? No? Doesn't sound much different to me either. The trick is learning what chords to play the modes over. This is the secret. And it is not as simple as just playing a C major scale over a D minor chord and calling it D Dorian. Technically it is D Dorian, but you will find that certain chords and chord progressions or vamps REALLY bring out the sound of the different modes, like using an add9 or add9/#11 with the Lydian scale. This is where it gets a bit difficult, but this is the key to modes.

 

 

 

Sounds way different. Yes? If you are just noodling around aimlessly then it will sound like a C major scale. If you are concentrating on D being the tonic and thinking D minor ( it DOES have a minor 3rd when starting on the d) then it sounds really different. You should be able to imply D minor without ANY chords involved.

[andy thompson]

You should be able to imply D minor without ANY chords involved.

 

 

 

You folks are REALLY inspiring me to learn more theory

[andy thompson]

Right. . I'd sure like to hear more of this if you're so inclined.

 

 

 

Seconded,

 

Your posting is making me see the relevance of (for me) a confusing subject:idea:

[codecontra]

Whenever people say they are "learning their modes", I don't really understand because if you know your major scale, then you know all the modes.

 

stomias, you stated that "You should be able to imply D minor without ANY chords involved". I agree with your logic, but I bet you that most people on this forum could not "hear" this. You would have to have a pretty good sense of relative pitch (if not perfect pitch) to be able to pull this off. Also if you extended this to modes, it gets even harder. How many people here are going to be able to identify a D Dorian scale just by hearing the scale alone? Not many, I assume.

 

A lot of people say to just play a C major scale, but start on the E note and you are playing E Phrygian and that E Phrygian has an "exotic sound" to it. So we do just that and scratch our heads because it sounds like a plain old C Major scale.... because it basically is.

 

Let's face it, when you are soloing, you rarely start on the tonic and just play up the scale from one note to the next. So if you are "noodling" around with a C major scale, it is going to sound the same as E Phrygian. You are playing the same notes.

 

So another way to think of this is that modes work by simply playing the major scale over diffrerent chords. If you play a C Major scale over a C chord, it will sound Ionian (bright, happy, upbeat). If you play the same scale over an Em chord, it will sound Phrygian (dark, exotic). If you play the same scale over an F major, it will sound Lydian (floating, dream like).

 

If you are just starting out with modes, I would suggest just playing one chord (the corresponding chord associated with the scale degree), such as an Em, and soloing over it with the major scale to get the hang of it (C Major). See if you can tell the difference and hear the "exotic" sound.

 

Then you can add chords, but you have to be careful what you add. If you are soloing in E Phrygian and throw in a major chord, like a C major, it will blow the vibe.

 

And most people will tell you that modes work best when you are using a "vamp" as your chord progression. A vamp is usually just a couple of chords repeating over and over.

 

Then once you get the hang of this, you can start using chords that bring out the mode even better.

 

For example, here is a great exercise below. It is in E Lydian, which is a mode of B major.

 

Sooooo, just noodle around with the B major scale, but play the chord transcibed below under your noodling. Basically record this chord and noodle over it with a B major scale. You can pick or strum the chord.

 

How does it sound? Does it sound "floating and dream like"? If so, congrats, you are now playing modally !!

 

Esus#11 or Eadd9/#11

--0--

--0--

--3--

--4--

--2--

--0--

 

 

If you want to add another chord and get a little "vamp" going, here is a good one:

 

Eadd9

 

--x---

--x---

--11--

--9---

--7---

--0---

 

 

I got these chords from a fellow forum member, but I forget who (sorry).

 

 

Of course, for the purists, I am taking some liberties here, but in my mind, this is how it works and how it is easiest to understand. After you get the hang of this, you can start concentrating on what notes you are playing and make the modal vibe even stronger.