Members J.Paul Posted May 29, 2011 Members Share Posted May 29, 2011 I hate the way my acoustic sounds when the engineer sets the gain really low.Am I alone in this?It seem like the dynamic response is borish and nothing really pops.Is it out of line to suggest to the engineer to up the gain to MY liking (rather than his or hers?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted May 29, 2011 Members Share Posted May 29, 2011 Depends on your relationship with the engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted May 29, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 29, 2011 Really? Is that the way everyone here feels? Once your signal leaves your amp,DI, drum head, mouth, etc... the rest of the tone/sound/signal is dictated by the engineer and is no longer a team effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted May 30, 2011 Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Just one opinion. I don't think forum silence at this point means that everyone is in agreement with me. Sundays & holidays are slow around here. Don't get too worked up about it. Also note that abbreviations like FOH aren't going to be entirely recognizable by some acoustic guitarists (it's not a term I've seen pop up here, though it comes up in other areas of HC), so that will narrow down your chances of a response. Hang tight, and I'm sure some folks will chime in once they get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted May 30, 2011 Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Ha! I'm with ya! I'm a sound man's nightmare if it doesn't sound right to me. The gain on the board should be... run up the gain untill the red light comes on, then back it off a little. I use a LR Bagg Para DI, and I can shape my tone with that, fairly well. It has gain on it as well. If I'm running to hot of a signal to the board, I can back it off a little there. I usually start with the board flat, then get the sound I want coming through the monitors the way I like, then ask the sound man to make the FOH sound like the monitors on stage. Some times its give and take for the both of us. Most sound guys I work with are fairly easy to deal with. In my opinion, the sound man is there to support me. If they don't work, "with" me, I'll pack it up in a heart beat. But in all my years, I've only had to do that once. Most sound guys want it to sound good, but if they don't have something to reference to, they might not understand what it is your looking for. Get used to being able to acheave the sound you want on stage, then ask them to make the FOH sound like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted May 30, 2011 Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 I've noticed that there is an alarming amount of sound-folks who are totally clueless about how an acoustic should sound through the PA...at yesterday's festival gig (Dallas City Arts), the soundman kept tweaking the tone, I'd use my PADI to "repair" the damage, he'd tweak it some more, I'd "repair" the damage, this went on for the 1st 45 minutes of my 75 minute set...kinda wish I'd had an Esteban on hand to "El Kabong" him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted May 30, 2011 Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 Well its probably because the guy mixing doesn't know what its suposed to sound like. Probably listened to Heavy Metal on the way to the Gig. If I repeatadly have to alter my sound, I usually ask the sound man, if he knows what Knuckle Bumps are?I'm lucky, the guy who usually mixes for me in clubs is a buddy, and he is usually there at the festivals gigs hanging out with me and will talk to the fest mixer for me if it doesn't sound right.I've noticed that there is an alarming amount of sound-folks who are totally clueless about how an acoustic should sound through the PA...at yesterday's festival gig (Dallas City Arts), the soundman kept tweaking the tone, I'd use my PADI to "repair" the damage, he'd tweak it some more, I'd "repair" the damage, this went on for the 1st 45 minutes of my 75 minute set...kinda wish I'd had an Esteban on hand to "El Kabong" him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cobalt Blue Posted May 30, 2011 Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 When/if one is ever able to do so, one gets a soundperson who is as in tune with the artist's vision as are any of the other band members, a soundperson who actually understands music, not just how to slide knobs to make a PA sound like the stereo in his bedroom. I'm certain that Tommy Emmanuel's soundman doesn't impose his will on Tommy; he works with Tommy so that Tommy's music will sound to the audience as close as is sonically possible to that which Tommy hears in his head. BTW, what is FOH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted May 30, 2011 Author Members Share Posted May 30, 2011 whoops sorry FOH is front of house PA. So in context to the title of the thread if the gain for the acoustic guitar is set at -4 in the monitors and seems to be be really responsive to yourself onstage, it can sound very very different through the main PA (to the audience) if the soundman sets his gain at -12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted May 31, 2011 Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 Like I said, tell the sound man you want it sounding off stage like you have it on stage. Tell him to take off the head set and make a trip up to the stage to hear.whoops sorryFOH is front of house PA.So in context to the title of the thread if the gain for the acoustic guitar is set at -4 in the monitors and seems to be be really responsive to yourself onstage,it can sound very very different through the main PA (to the audience) if the soundman sets his gain at -12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cobalt Blue Posted May 31, 2011 Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 herbie d. and J. Paul, have you noticed the startling similarities (and differences) between your avatar photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted May 31, 2011 Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 Well... I much better looking than that guy.herbie d. and J. Paul, have you noticed the startling similarities (and differences) between your avatar photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted May 31, 2011 Members Share Posted May 31, 2011 So in context to the title of the thread if the gain for the acoustic guitar is set at -4 in the monitors and seems to be be really responsive to yourself onstage,it can sound very very different through the main PA (to the audience) if the soundman sets his gain at -12 So are you saying that the tonality of the guitar signal changes depending on the gain knob? Or just that you end up being mixed too low? Because gain is gain, the tone doesn't change with the knob. But that aside, a good sound mixer (and yes, there are plenty of bad ones) may well have a different vision of what the sound should be like. That's because they have to think more like an arranger, as in "how am I going to fit all this together?". That against what happens with musicians sometimes and what we call "bedroom tone", where the guitar (or bass, or keyboards) sound great on their own but take up too much space in a mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted June 1, 2011 Members Share Posted June 1, 2011 Well yea...not enough gain at the board "can" change the tone. (those channel strips like to be powered up) Running too much gain on a Active DI going to the board can sound bad as well.Alot of times the sound guy will turn the gain down on the channel so he can get the slider (cannel volume) up to a respectable level. They will turn the gain down if they are getting a hot signal off the stage, and never think to ask you to pull the DI's gain back.So are you saying that the tonality of the guitar signal changes depending on the gain knob? Or just that you end up being mixed too low? Because gain is gain, the tone doesn't change with the knob.But that aside, a good sound mixer (and yes, there are plenty of bad ones) may well have a different vision of what the sound should be like. That's because they have to think more like an arranger, as in "how am I going to fit all this together?". That against what happens with musicians sometimes and what we call "bedroom tone", where the guitar (or bass, or keyboards) sound great on their own but take up too much space in a mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted June 1, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 1, 2011 So are you saying that the tonality of the guitar signal changes depending on the gain knob? Or just that you end up being mixed too low? Because gain is gain, the tone doesn't change with the knob. Yes.This is what's getting into the crux of this thread that I was hoping to get some perspective about.....I don't perceive it (the gain) as changing the actual tone~but it DOES affect the perceived "wideness" of the tone as well as the amount of headroom and overall dynamic sensitivity. We are redoing my mixes next load-in (this weekend). I suspect that channel needs to be padded ..... will report back Monday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted June 1, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 1, 2011 Ha! I'm with ya! I'm a sound man's nightmare if it doesn't sound right to me. The gain on the board should be... run up the gain untill the red light comes on, then back it off a little. I use a LR Bagg Para DI, and I can shape my tone with that, fairly well. It has gain on it as well. If I'm running to hot of a signal to the board, I can back it off a little there.I usually start with the board flat, then get the sound I want coming through the monitors the way I like, then ask the sound man to make the FOH sound like the monitors on stage. Some times its give and take for the both of us.Most sound guys I work with are fairly easy to deal with. In my opinion, the sound man is there to support me. If they don't work, "with" me, I'll pack it up in a heart beat. But in all my years, I've only had to do that once.Most sound guys want it to sound good, but if they don't have something to reference to, they might not understand what it is your looking for. Get used to being able to acheave the sound you want on stage, then ask them to make the FOH sound like that. Yeah alot of people seem to be using that Para EQ.I'm using The Aura Spectrum and it just has a main volume out. I like it overall....I'm gonna try coming down with my output (as per your suggestion) to give the board more room to gain up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted June 1, 2011 Members Share Posted June 1, 2011 Most people that stand behind a mixing desk haven't got a clue from my experience. Of course many are totally skilled at it and I've seen almost as many of those, but the ijits are burned in my memory. Mostly with the clueless they somehow associate it with DJ mixing and feel like they're not doing their job if they're not changing something all the time. Arghhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 1, 2011 Members Share Posted June 1, 2011 An argument that comes up from time to time on the pro audio boards is based on the same idea - that hitting the mic preamp at different gains results in obvious changes in sound. OK, so if you're overloading the channel it'll sound different. But you get guys who think that it sounds better when they line up all the faders at 0dB and then mix from the gain knobs, which is just stupid. Unless you're using some weird old tube preamp, gain is just gain. Maybe you like the distortion when you overload the channel, but that's not exactly the same thing. I did some tests with a Mackie mixer (most common thing you'll find in clubs, right?) and different gain levels, using SMAART software to actually measure the frequency and phase response. No differences at all at different gain settings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members herbie d Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Well... On my Club System, I use an Allen/Heath Board. (well its my board but I have a sound guy run it) That board sounds best with the faders at 0db. Theres markings on the fader slot showing a range to be in. (I guess it says 0db, I don;t remember) The gain knobs are usually run up till the red clip light comes on, then backed down just enough to keep out of the red. If you can't get the faders up to a good operating level, then you need to turn the amps down with the gain knobs on the amps, not back the gain down on the channels.Yes mixing by using the gain knobs is stupid, but running a board too cool because you have the gain knobs on the amps set to full is stupid as well. They put gain knobs on the board and on the amps for a reason. Using SMAART software to actually measure the frequency and phase response? Maybe you do read no difference IDK. But I do know you loose "presence" with out running good levels.A great example of this is... A sound man for months tried to get me to use this processor on my electric guitar. It would eleminate the need to have an amp on stage, less stuff on the stage, easier to mix the direct signal rather than a fender amp and mic, no bleed through etc,etc. I tried it out in the motel room with head phones on. It was awsome! It had amp emulators on it, all of the effects I use, and you could down load stuff on to it as well. It sounded great in the motel room! I took it on stage... My guitar had no presence. I bet if you tested the processor and my old fender amps with your SMARRT software, the processor would win out. But "I" listen with my ears rather that my eyes, and I have never heard a processor emulate the sound of a Fender Amp, that sounds as good as my Fender Amp on stage.I don't mean any of this to start up an argument or to make it sound like I'm a know it all, because I'm not, I'm just a guitar player. I also know this isn't really the place to post this kind of stuff so I'll try and quit. This is just hitting a note with me. Ha,ha. The sound men I hate worst of all are the ones who I see looking at the board, and never looking at the band they are mixing. How could they ever see the clip lights on the power amps? What's even worse is the one's who wear head phones all night. How can you hear the room with headphones on? I always tell em,"get a set of head phones for everyone in the room, or take em off". I also like my acoustic guitar to sound like "I" like coming through the FOH. A good sound man knows how to make it like,"I" like. A bad sound man ignores me and makes it sound like he likes. An argument that comes up from time to time on the pro audio boards is based on the same idea - that hitting the mic preamp at different gains results in obvious changes in sound. OK, so if you're overloading the channel it'll sound different. But you get guys who think that it sounds better when they line up all the faders at 0dB and then mix from the gain knobs, which is just stupid. Unless you're using some weird old tube preamp, gain is just gain. Maybe you like the distortion when you overload the channel, but that's not exactly the same thing.I did some tests with a Mackie mixer (most common thing you'll find in clubs, right?) and different gain levels, using SMAART software to actually measure the frequency and phase response. No differences at all at different gain settings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 3, 2011 Members Share Posted June 3, 2011 Did I mention that I'm a pro sound guy? Ears first... and I've never heard a difference with different gain/fader settings. Software to confirm those results - I did that test a while back to settle the same argument on a pro audio board. I agree with you on using headphones, etc. Listen to the room, make sure the music is there. Way too many sound guys try to mix it with everything huge and loud, because that's how they show off. Good sound guys want to disappear and make it sound like there's no PA at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted June 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 So I sent less signal at soundcheck and that allowed the board to gain me up much higher resulting in more sensitivity, headroom, and responsiveness. I keep that channel pretty low in my IEM so I don't get to enjoy it, but at least I know what it's doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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