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Does mandolin discussion belong here too?

RoboPimp

By RoboPimp
in Acoustic Guitars

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SnorkelMonkey Newbie

SnorkelMonkey

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One other note on your build question, just like anything else companies embellish to make a product seem better than other brands and even their own lower price products. For example the KM-1000. They say it's hand carved, graduated top and back with a solid quarter sawn top and solid quarter sawn back. With my model the 805 they don't mention it having a solid quarter sawn top and back but guess what? It does. The top is solid quarter sawn spruce and the back is solid quarter sawn and booked matched fiddle-back (aka flamed) maple just like the 1000. I suspect the 505 is the same? They pull a slight of hand there to move you in the direction of the higher priced unit.

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Mike_E_McGee Newbie

Mike_E_McGee

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I walked into the room and the sound was as thick as the smoke. Bobble headded kids danced their wavy armed dances. The B3 player was swirling up a storm. Reflections bounced off of everything. The sound enveloping me. Wait! There's no B3 player! That's a damned mandolin! The kid was playing through a motion sound amp (a modern leslie with some tweaks). Totally fooled me! It's amazing what you can do with a little creativity.

 

Never played a mando myself.

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Verne Andru Newbie

Verne Andru

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Here's my 2 cents on the build stuff.

 

Wood types:

 

- Laminate [plywood] at the bottom end of the market.

- Solid spruce at the top end of the market.

- There are variations between, like cedar and maple, but they are not that common. Cedar can sound great when done properly.

 

Build:

 

Tops

- Pressed plywood at the bottom end.

- Hand-carved and graduated solid woods at the top end.

- In between you have variations on these themes. There are pressed solid tops, CNC carved solid's and those that claim to be hand-carved tops but the only carving is in the scroll area, the rest is pressed.

- IMHO CNC and hand-carved run pretty close. A properly done CNC top can sound better than a poorly made hand-carved piece. When both are done properly the difference rests in the other build pieces.

- A re-curved top will give you a louder and more bell-like tone than one without.

 

Back & Sides

- Stringed instruments, like guitars and mandos, are designed to react like a drum. The top works like a drum's skin and the job of the back and sides is to hold it as firmly as possible. You'll note that the really good drum kits are made of plywood because it is sturdier than a solid of similar thickness. It follows that you should get a better sound with plywood/laminate sides and backs. I've found there to be little tonal difference between solid backs/sides and laminates, but there is a huge price jump going to a completely solid build.

 

Tone Bars:

 

- The job of the tone bars is to disperse the string's vibrations over the the top. Tone bars that are properly placed and scalloped will greatly enhance the tone and volume of the instrument. Cheaper instruments use 2x4's in the place of tone bars that actually restrict the top's movement which deadens the sound.

- Most low-end, mass-produced mandolins tend to skimp on fine-tuning the tone-bars - the Loar's being the exception. Higher-end, luthier builds put quite a bit of time into getting this part right since it has such a profound effect on the overall sound of the instrument.

- One of the Loar's, either the 600 or the 700, has no tone bars at all. All the review's I've read indicate it sounds great without them.

 

Nut:

 

- As with guitars, nut materials range from cheap plastic to bone, the latter providing a better tone IMHO.

 

Bridge:

 

- Rosewood and ebony are the two most common. I prefer ebony because it tends to couple the strings to the top better, but a properly setup rosewood bridge can sound pretty good.

 

Tailpiece:

 

- You'll run into some people who claim the mass of the tailpiece affects the tone. I didn't drink that koolaid and tend to think that's marketing mumbo-jumbo for aftermarket parts makers.

 

 

Ideally you will be looking for a hand-carved and graduated spruce with a re-curve, a bone nut and ebony bridge. Of course, the nut and bridge can always be changed after the fact. Back and side materials are more budget and bragging-rights driven than functional IMHO.

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Opa John Newbie

Opa John

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The only thing I know about mandolins is that the best money can buy just may be built right here in Ohio by Don MacRostie of Athens, Ohio. He builds the Red Diamond mandos. I've heard a couple of people around these parts who own one, and know how to play it, and I can't imagine a finer mandolin at any price. Every one is custom made by one man......And he makes only about 8 of them a year, so it would take awhile to get one. If I was a lot younger, and a lot richer, I could see myself owning one eventually.

 

http://reddiamondmandolins.com/?page_id=5

 

At the same time, if you're looking for a really fantastic mandolin at a lot less money, search online for any of them made by Ray Sparks of Columbus, Ohio. I've seen some of his for sale from time to time. If you google his name, you can get his phone number and give him a call to see if he's still building them. I haven't seen him in a couple of years, but he was still building them then. He can build you a beautiful "one off" "F" style for less than $2k.....and the looks and sound of 'em will knock your socks off!!

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SnorkelMonkey Newbie

SnorkelMonkey

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Here's my 2 cents on the build stuff.

 

I agree with just about everything except for a couple things.

 

The backs do generate a lot of volume on a well built mandolin, just like a well built violin it adds to the volume and projection. Next time you get a chance pick up a well made mandolin and strum it against your body then held away. A laminate back is nowhere in the same picture thus no way a better sound period.

 

And you are drinking the kool-aid on the Loar's. I hear great things about them but they are also Made in China then distributed from there by Musiclink in the USA. I wouldn't doubt if they were made by the same company that makes Kentucky and Eastman. How does one "fine tune" a tone bar on a No. 5 style mandolin once the body has been glued together? They're not doing it over here, do you think they are going out of there way to fine tune it better in China over all the other brands they produce? :idk:

Here's a link about Loar's and Musiclink

 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?64433-Disappointed-in-the-Loar-Mandolins

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Verne Andru Newbie

Verne Andru

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I agree that backs can make a difference to the volume a mandolin puts out. I'm saying that a properly done laminate won't be much different, if at all, from a solid but the price difference is quite substantial.

 

I don't agree country of origin is a deciding factor anymore. I've met Qian Ni, president of Eastman, and talked with his people about how they build. Eastman, and China as a whole for that matter, has a long history in building traditional instruments like cellos, violins, etc. The people they employ in their facility making their guitars and mandolins are skilled crafts-people, not paupers taken off the street. Eastman makes Eastman's in their facility - nothing else.

 

I can't speak to The Music Link other than I own 2 of their products - a Paris Swing mandolin and Loar archtop guitar. Both are designed by Greg Rich, formerly of Gibson's custom shop who, as I understand it, is involved with managing production. Both instruments are superb value and in a league by themselves in the price-point they sell at. Do they produce some dud's? Probably - just like every other producer.

 

We don't have to go very far back in time to find US made products were of poor quality and had a bad international reputation. Some parts of the US manufacturing sector picked up their game and produce world-class products, others still produce crap. Same can be said of Japan, Korea, India, etc. All developing industrial infrastructures go through their development curves and, from what I'm seeing, China is starting to put out some great products at fantastic prices. This is largely why the US is in a worsening jobs crisis that isn't about to change anytime soon.

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Verne Andru Newbie

Verne Andru

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Couple of other notes - Kentucky's are imported by Saga and made in a different factory than The Music Link from what I understand. As far as The Music Link goes - I did own a Johnson mandolin prior to my Paris Swing and it was the most horrible piece of crap I've ever run across. Johnson is also a Music Link brand - so there you go.

 

It is possible to carve the tone bars after the mandolin is assembled. This can be done either through the F-holes, end-pin jack hole or, in my case, an Les Paul style jack hole on the side. I did this to the Johnson and it made a significant difference to tone and volume. Ideally these sorts of adjustments should be made before the instrument is assembled, but can be done after the fact. There are multiple threads about this process over at the Mandolin Cafe if you're really interested.

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jamesp Newbie

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You can find a great sounding $500 mando, but imo the odds are longer than with guitars. My theory is that the smaller, arched soundboards and backs make mandolin graduations harder to standardize. Every piece of wood being just different enough that it takes an experienced maker to get the tap and flex just right before gluing up. That's why most production mandolins are a crapshoot as far as tone goes. Good ones are out there, but IME they take more looking.

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SnorkelMonkey Newbie

SnorkelMonkey

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I don't agree country of origin is a deciding factor anymore.

 

 

My post was in regards not to country of origin but your comment about "Loar fine tuning the tone bars" in their mandolins. Again how do you fine tune a tone bar on a No.5 style mandolin once the body has been glued together? They're not doing it here in the USA because the mandolins made and are imported from China. My point is I doubt a factory in China is going out of the way to go above and beyond what it normally takes to get a good sounding production run. And no one over here is fine tuning tone bars on No.5 style mandolins because it's next to psychically impossible once they've been glued up.

 

Here's that link again that tells you who imports them here State side. They're like any of the other distributors.

 

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?64433-Disappointed-in-the-Loar-Mandolins

 

Edit: I take that back. I did look up and found what I think you're describing, the sanding down of the tone bars once the mandolin has been glued up. Not next to psychically impossible but pretty close as it sounds like a major pain in the ass, I don't think a distributor is going to go through all that before they ship them out to the stores. My $.02

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Verne Andru Newbie

Verne Andru

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My post was in regards not to country of origin but your comment about "Loar fine tuning the tone bars" in their mandolins. Again how do you fine tune a tone bar on a No.5 style mandolin once the body has been glued together?

 

 

On what basis are you assuming the Loar's are not tuned while they are being assembled? Everything I've read and all the discussions I've had are that Greg Rich introduced the Loar-era design and building processes for the Loar mandolin and guitar products - hence the name. No need for the distributor to do anything after-the-fact other than normal setup issues.

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Verne Andru Newbie

Verne Andru

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Here's a snip from a great article on the life and contributions of Lloyd Loar:

 

Tap tuning

If one had to sum up and highlight Loar's most significant and enduring contributions to acoustic instruments, it would have to be in the area of structural "tuning." This art of tuning was not merely adjusting the strings to the correct notes but rather tuning the various structural components of the instrument to specific pitches so that the whole instrument, working as a coupled system (acoustically speaking), produced the best tones possible from each of its parts. To accomplish this, soundboards, backboards, tone bars, f-holes, and air chamber sizes were adjusted so that each element was tuned to a specific note. And, in Loar's day, these notes were part of concert pitch C=256 (where A=431). With the entire instrument assembled, and strings tuned to the concert pitch of that time, the parts of the instrument responded harmonically rather than discordantly to the strings' energy. The tuning suppressed any unwanted "beats" or overtones thus bringing forth the best dynamics and tonal qualities of the instrument. Further, the use of C=256 accidentally causes the bodies of these instruments to be tuned

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