Members xuoham Posted August 25, 2012 Members Share Posted August 25, 2012 Neck angle doubt : if i run a straight edge down the neck it hits 1mm/0.04' down the bridge. To get a 2.3mm / little less than 3/32 action, i had to sand the saddle big time, only 2mm of the saddle visible. It plays and sounds fine, intonation is spot on, should i worry ? How is it for you guys A series owners ? I know Yamaha is famous for having a low neck angle by design, but when i got this A3R in april i was surprised that the action was around 3.5mm while all the reviews said it was designed with low action in mind. Could it be ... that my neck moved ? According to the serial it was built two years ago, so could it be that the neck moved in between in the store ? This was the first time i bought an acoustic so the high action was not too alarming, i thought it was normal and that i would just sand the saddle. Again, the guitar plays great and intonation is right, i am just a little concerned. Hopefuly some A series owner would chime in and say that running a straight edge down the neck gives the same results Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zigeuner Posted August 25, 2012 Members Share Posted August 25, 2012 Neck angle doubt : if i run a straight edge down the neck it hits 1mm/0.04' down the bridge. To get a 2.3mm / little less than 3/32 action, i had to sand the saddle big time, only 2mm of the saddle visible. It plays and sounds fine, intonation is spot on, should i worry ? How is it for you guys A series owners ? I know Yamaha is famous for having a low neck angle by design, but when i got this A3R in april i was surprised that the action was around 3.5mm while all the reviews said it was designed with low action in mind. Could it be ... that my neck moved ? According to the serial it was built two years ago, so could it be that the neck moved in between in the store ? This was the first time i bought an acoustic so the high action was not too alarming, i thought it was normal and that i would just sand the saddle. Again, the guitar plays great and intonation is right, i am just a little concerned. Hopefuly some A series owner would chime in and say that running a straight edge down the neck gives the same results Thanks in advance It's not uncommon for a guitar to be built that way, with a "high" neck. If you can still get a decent action and have 2mm of saddle showing, I would say that you will be OK unless the neck is moving. The difficulty with resetting the neck on most Asian acoustic guitars is that they often use epoxy to fasten the neck. Epoxy won't dissolve with steam or ordinary dry heat so a neck reset might require cutting it off and rebuilding the joint afterwards. That can be done, but it's costly if a shop does it. They use epoxy (and urethane type finishes) because they are building for a world market. It sounds like you are OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yamaneck Posted August 25, 2012 Members Share Posted August 25, 2012 It's not uncommon for a guitar to be built that way, with a "high" neck. If you can still get a decent action and have 2mm of saddle showing, I would say that you will be OK unless the neck is moving. The difficulty with resetting the neck on most Asian acoustic guitars is that they often use epoxy to fasten the neck. Epoxy won't dissolve with steam or ordinary dry heat so a neck reset might require cutting it off and rebuilding the joint afterwards. That can be done, but it's costly if a shop does it. They use epoxy (and urethane type finishes) because they are building for a world market. It sounds like you are OK. I do saw-off resets on older Yamahas all the time, not so much because of the Asian Mystery Glue, but the mechanical tightness of the joint. Owing to the fact that you have to steam longer, because it's not hide glue, the wood will swell, often locking up the joint, but good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 25, 2012 Members Share Posted August 25, 2012 Neck angle doubt : if i run a straight edge down the neck it hits 1mm/0.04' down the bridge. To get a 2.3mm / little less than 3/32 action, i had to sand the saddle big time, only 2mm of the saddle visible. It plays and sounds fine, intonation is spot on, should i worry ? How is it for you guys A series owners ? I know Yamaha is famous for having a low neck angle by design, but when i got this A3R in april i was surprised that the action was around 3.5mm while all the reviews said it was designed with low action in mind. Could it be ... that my neck moved ? According to the serial it was built two years ago, so could it be that the neck moved in between in the store ? This was the first time i bought an acoustic so the high action was not too alarming, i thought it was normal and that i would just sand the saddle. Again, the guitar plays great and intonation is right, i am just a little concerned. Hopefuly some A series owner would chime in and say that running a straight edge down the neck gives the same results Thanks in advance If you are happy with the action and the sound, I am curious why you are concerned? I have a guitar that is similar and I have not done anything about it for a long time, but I will eventually saw off the neck (steam the fretboard tougue) and reset it the neck joint because I know it is lacking in break angle at the saddle and I am almost positive I am missing volume from it. I wouldn't do this to a more expensive unit though. On a more expensive guitar, I would steam the neck joint and reset it. You probably are missing volume as well, but if it doesn't concern you...well...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted August 25, 2012 Members Share Posted August 25, 2012 How's the neck relief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 26, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 Thanks for your help, The neck relief is optimal. This guitar does not even seem to lack volume, hmmm, maybe just a little ?It plays fine but i can't help from being a bit concerned.First time yesterday i heard about break angle at the saddle, i know more about electrics than acoustics.Will post some pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 26, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 Here are some pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted August 26, 2012 Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 My reason for asking about the neck relief is that it figures into that overall neck angle measurement. The more neck relief you have, the lower the end of that ruler will be on the edge of the bridge. It can mislead you into thinking you need a neck reset, when all you really need is to remove some relief. FWIW, the neck angle on Yamaha guitars always seems to be borderline, even on new guitars. From what I've seen, low saddle height is pretty normal on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 26, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 26, 2012 Thanks Fretfiend, really appreciated info ! Since i'm fingerpicking most of the time i have just the optimal tiny bit of relief so that nothing buzzes. While pressing on 1st and 12th frets, i can barely see any clearance, just maybe 1/4 of mm.What you say about Yamaha being borderline with their neck angle confirms what i am starting to think.I have the same exact angle (that is the straight edge about 1mm below bridge top) with my Yamaha FG301 from 1977 and my sturdy-impeccable-neck-no-belly FG-413s-12 12 strings.I'm starting to see a little clearer and realize i'm probably alarmed over something normal-ish, since anyway i just love the way this guitar plays and sounds. Cheers. what would i do without this forum ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Just another thought - you can ramp the peg holes by filing an angled slot in the front of each peg hole where the string exits and goes up over the saddle. This gives you a little more break angle. I have done it on a guitar that had a low saddle and it worked well enough that I could hear the difference. If this doesn't make sense, or if you are not sure how to do it and want to do it, let me know and I'll attach pics of the slotting saw I made (can also use small files) and a pic of what the slot looks like done. I would attach them now, but I have not taken pics of this yet, so let me know if this is of interest and I'll do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 27, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Thanks a lot DCS, very nice from you ! Yes, please, it is something i might consider, though i am not bothered by any lack of volume, but hey, it's always best to be optimum. I'm a greenhorn in the acoustic world and i am starting to understand the importance of break angle. Someone else suggested this to me at AGF and i was a bit concerned about the bridge getting worn out prematurely by the constant pressure of the strings, but apparently it is something pretty common, seems like. I have this angle right now: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Just another thought - you can ramp the peg holes by filing an angled slot in the front of each peg hole where the string exits and goes up over the saddle. This gives you a little more break angle. . . . ^ This. Also, 2mm is fairly marginal in terms of saddle height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 I'm not much good at photography or inserting files. I hope these pics make it. even though pics are bad (taken with phone) you should be able to see how the slot brings the contact point of the string in the bridge slot closer to the saddle creating a minor increase in break angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 ....Someone else suggested this to me at AGF and i was a bit concerned about the bridge getting worn out prematurely by the constant pressure of the strings, but apparently it is something pretty common, seems like. Well, I certainly don't want to be responsible for anything bad happening to your bridge, but I do not see any reason to be concerned about this wearing out your bridge. I did this to one of mine 18 years ago and it has not caused any issues. The contact point IS closer to the saddle slot so there IS less wood between. Assuming your bridge is ebony, I would not worry. Best of luck - if you decide to try it,Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 27, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Thank a lot DCS, i think i will try it, my bridge is ebony. Good to know your bridge didn't change in 18 years.Stewmac sells those slot saws and they ship to Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Understand that there is a difference between slotting the bridge pin holes, and ramping the bridge pin holes. Bridge pin holes are slotted completely through so that the string fits into the slot in the bridge pin hole instead of in the slot in the bridge pin itself. You're supposed to use unslotted bridge pins in a slotted bridge. The purpose for this is to move the string eyelet contact and pressure point on the bridge plate inside the guitar away from the bridge pin holes. It's supposed to help prevent bridge plate and bridge pin wear. Bridge pin holes are ramped at the top of the holes to move the string exit point on the top of the bridge closer to the saddle. This increases the string break angle over the saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Understand that there is a difference between slotting the bridge pin holes, and ramping the bridge pin holes.Bridge pin holes are slotted completely through so that the string fits into the slot in the bridge pin hole instead of in the slot in the bridge pin itself. You're supposed to use unslotted bridge pins in a slotted bridge. The purpose for this is to move the string eyelet contact and pressure point on the bridge plate inside the guitar away from the bridge pin holes. It's supposed to help prevent bridge plate and bridge pin wear.Bridge pin holes are ramped at the top of the holes to move the string exit point on the top of the bridge closer to the saddle. This increases the string break angle over the saddle. I can see from his photos that his PINS are slotted. Of course you are correct that ramping is just at the top of the pin holes. Anyone with slotted pins has no need to slot the bridge pin holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DCS Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 Understand that there is a difference between slotting the bridge pin holes, and ramping the bridge pin holes.Bridge pin holes are slotted completely through so that the string fits into the slot in the bridge pin hole instead of in the slot in the bridge pin itself. You're supposed to use unslotted bridge pins in a slotted bridge. The purpose for this is to move the string eyelet contact and pressure point on the bridge plate inside the guitar away from the bridge pin holes. It's supposed to help prevent bridge plate and bridge pin wear.Bridge pin holes are ramped at the top of the holes to move the string exit point on the top of the bridge closer to the saddle. This increases the string break angle over the saddle. I can see from his photos that his PINS are slotted. Of course you are correct that ramping is just at the top of the pin holes. Anyone with slotted pins has no need to slot the bridge pin holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted August 27, 2012 Members Share Posted August 27, 2012 I can see from his photos that his PINS are slotted. Of course you are correct that ramping is just at the top of the pin holes. Anyone with slotted pins has no need to slot the bridge pin holes. I have always ramped AND slotted my pin holes, as well as reamed them to fit the pins I'll use. You can turn slotted pins around or buy unslotted ones. The arguement is that slotting does a better job of anchoring the ball ends of the strings, where ramping lets you optimize the break angle. There are some people (whose opinions are highly regarded) who thinks that break angle isn't very important (Alan Caruth is one), others think it is. I figure it can't hurt. There has been a long running thread on "bridgelobotamy" at the UMGF and there is a very interesting one at MIMF right now complete with free body diagrams and finite element models. Our old friend Gitnoob would love this http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1126 I tend to agree with FF about the way I build and set up my guitars, but there has been a lot of discussion about new Yamaha's shipping with relatively low neck angles and low saddle heights so I don't want to get involved here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xuoham Posted August 29, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 29, 2012 ... but there has been a lot of discussion about new Yamaha's shipping with relatively low neck angles and low saddle heights so I don't want to get involved here. Oh really ? Good to know, one more confirmation. Thanks any link to this "lot of discussion" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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