Help with Washburn SBF-80

[tmiblack]

90OK, hello ADMIN, et al.

 

So harmonycentral is a site to discus music and instruments, yet when I post here I get slagged.

 

Not one of the follow up posts discussed my appreciation of this particular instrument in any form. I tried to offer advice to the OP, who I realise has not logged in for some time, but I thought the advice may help some other people who "google" this guitar.

 

Instead, I get called a "troll"..... no worries I have been called far worse by people who matter, rather than the ignorant masses you obviously condone here.

 

I removed all my previous posts because some were not actually discussing the SBF80. Even the ones which discussed the guitar were slagged off by other petty minded people who have never played the guitar and chose to admonish my comments before discussion.

 

In fact, this post will probably receive similar replies from such wankers....... do I care? ........ NO

 

 

Should you as HarmonyCentral care?....... I'll leave that to you to decide.

 

My advice on guitars and other musical instruments.....

 

go to another forum where staff monitor the replies and appreciate feedback.

 

take care

 

tmiblack

[Idunno]

Tonight I'm having Mulligan stew. I have no idea why it's called that. I'm sure I'll care enough to find out one day. Then I'm having mom's apple pie, though my Mom is long gone. Then I'll probably finish it up with a nice cup of coffee while I casually play some melodies I usually play when I feel like casually playing some melodies. Soothes the soul. Then I'll peruse a site or two and make inane comments for the fun of it. Then I'll write out yet another maintenance procedure in a long line of procedures, past and future, to properly put myself to sleep.

 

There. I think everyone in this thread has now had a shot at saying what was on our minds.

[Idunno]

I'm sure it has something to do with this Mulligan guy.

[DeepEnd]

I'm sure it has something to do with this Mulligan guy.

I would've voted for Mulligan but I don't live in his district.

[tmiblack]

FatFriend said "No one's mentioned politics yet." ......

 

DOH! yes they did..... It was you

 

But on a more pertinent point I would ask:

 

Does anyone here actually discuss musical instruments these days? Or is this forum just taken over by the "wankers" (yes you know who you are) who think they are worth more discussion than the instruments they pretend to play.

 

Normally I would sign out and join a better forum to discus my guitar (or preferred) choice (oh yeah I did that also) instead of playing with you "bollock cuppers". But I enjoy a bit of vocal debate. So put down your cocks and try to be a bit more constructive with your "reason d'etre". My original post discussed my favourite guitar so prove that you can better me by discussing your favourite / favorite instrument and then add your insults to me.

 

But be aware of one thing.... I will not bother to reply to you unless you take time to add something to this topic. The topic started by discussing the Washburn SBF80, so just mention one thing about that guitar, or why you prefer a different guitar and I will reply, in full force. If you fail to discuss the original topic of this post you will be a failure and I would ask that no-one will respond to you (I may add a sarcastic comment... who knows). I suggest you take time to compose a witty reposte (see your usual dictionary).... oops sorry ...... a dictionary is a repository for words........ damn ..... a repository in this case means a book (do you need a simpler explanation?).

 

Have fun, I know you will try to better me, and maybe you can. But can you better me on appreciation of the OP and his comments or just by calling me names???? LOL

 

let us see

 

Just to remind you... I replied to the original post by offering suggestions on guitar strings (now deleted) so you need to add something similar for me to reply. If you do not, you are wasting your time and cupping your balls again

 

Think hard and ponder

 

ttfn

 

tmi

[Idunno]

FatFriend said "No one's mentioned politics yet." ......

 

DOH! yes they did..... It was you

 

But on a more pertinent point I would ask:

 

Does anyone here actually discuss musical instruments these days? Or is this forum just taken over by the "wankers" (yes you know who you are) who think they are worth more discussion than the instruments they pretend to play.

 

Normally I would sign out and join a better forum to discus my guitar (or preferred) choice (oh yeah I did that also) instead of playing with you "bollock cuppers". But I enjoy a bit of vocal debate. So put down your cocks and try to be a bit more constructive with your "reason d'etre". My original post discussed my favourite guitar so prove that you can better me by discussing your favourite / favorite instrument and then add your insults to me.

 

But be aware of one thing.... I will not bother to reply to you unless you take time to add something to this topic. The topic started by discussing the Washburn SBF80, so just mention one thing about that guitar, or why you prefer a different guitar and I will reply, in full force. If you fail to discuss the original topic of this post you will be a failure and I would ask that no-one will respond to you (I may add a sarcastic comment... who knows). I suggest you take time to compose a witty reposte (see your usual dictionary).... oops sorry ...... a dictionary is a repository for words........ damn ..... a repository in this case means a book (do you need a simpler explanation?).

 

Have fun, I know you will try to better me, and maybe you can. But can you better me on appreciation of the OP and his comments or just by calling me names???? LOL

 

let us see

 

Just to remind you... I replied to the original post by offering suggestions on guitar strings (now deleted) so you need to add something similar for me to reply. If you do not, you are wasting your time and cupping your balls again

 

Think hard and ponder

 

ttfn

 

tmi

 

Good rant and put well enough to spark some thinking. Don't bet on my wit, though. You'll just get frustrated searching my post for it. (Courtesy forewarning)

 

I have zero knowledge of your guitar. I have played many acoustics but have to admit that I've crossed paths with very few Washburns. Go back a few years and they were on the radar of these forums but not so much these days. I think Martin, Gibson, Guild and Yamaha are the makes-du-jour from what I read. Of them, I own a nylon string Yamaha that serves the purpose well enough for me.

 

Regarding general guitar discussion, there are a few here who still take that up between jousts but this crowd is older and a bit subject-weary. They've been patiently answering the same old questions going back a good ten years or so. Do not count me in their numbers because I'm done with that stuff. I'd rather discuss music but it's not On-Topic so I'm just here out of some diluted association with the instrument itself. That, and the songwriting forum on this site is a misnomer at best.

 

Maybe we can re-strike this attempt at congeniality and see what happens. If you're a player and want to contribute we have a virtual open mic here once a month. I think Garthman (Howard) makes the announcement these days after much torch-passing.

 

See you around.

[DeepEnd]

Okay, here's a thought: We do, in fact, discuss musical instruments but for the most part we stay on topic and don't revive zombie threads. We take constructive criticism and try not to repeat mistakes, at least not on purpose. I haven't played the guitar in question, the SBF-80, but I have played other Washburns and liked them for the most part. But that's all right because the guitar in question isn't the subject any more. The subject, as defined by tmiblack, apparently arbiter of all things, is whether we can add anything to a dead thread. No, I can't but that's all right because tmiblack can't either. This topic is old. Anyone who has anything constructive to offer will start a new thread. tmiblack hasn't done that, preferring instead to consistently miss the point and act like a troll. As for "favorite instrument", my current "good" acoustic is an Ibanez AW120 that I've owned for several years. It was made in 2003 in Korea by Cort, the company that currently makes Washburns. (How about that? Something related to the original topic!) It's not a Martin or Taylor but it serves me well and it's my "favorite" among the guitars I currently own. With the addition of a Shadow SH095 transducer, I'm able to play it in worship. However, none of that matters because that's not the topic, regardless of what tmiblack wants to think, and this thread is still dead. Only tmiblack keeps trying to bring it back because letting it die would be an admission that he was wrong. There is no re-striking any attempt at congeniality because that would require honest, constructive two-way communication and that isn't going to happen as long as tmiblack has an enormous chip on his shoulder.

[Idunno]

Deep, you if anyone knows better than to behave in the manner you have consciously chosen to it's you. I think we're all aware of the age of the thread. It isn't dead if someone revives it. Or, have we decided to become judge and jury of who can talk about what around here based upon some honorable titles we've bestowed upon ourselves? Old thread versus a general respect for people. Seems someone is weighing them against each other.

 

A nickel's worth of respect may fetch a dime's worth in return.

[Idunno]

FF, you're right, but a totally disarming response that goes into sappy territory - tactfully and seemingly genuinely - often has some wonderful repellent properties. And, it's good for the vanilla side of the soul. Just saying. But, if you guys prefer the conventional meat-nosed pugilistic approach go right ahead. I drinks alone, anyway.

[EdBega]

Was willing to give the him benefit of doubt originally but now he's taunting all the "wankers" in the forum ... even the innocent ones

 

[DeepEnd]

FF' date=' you're right, but a totally disarming response that goes into sappy territory - tactfully and seemingly genuinely - often has some wonderful repellent properties. And, it's good for the vanilla side of the soul. Just saying. . . .[/quote']

FretFiend has the guy's number. No reply, no matter how sweet, would have prevented the eventual release of bile. If you've been reading, you know that even Freeman, who is not nasty to anyone, told the guy to take the chip off his shoulder. BTW, as long as you're drinking alone, drink one for me.

[Idunno]

Your on. Well, people change and I thought I saw a glimmer of that in the recent post. I know it's happened in the past but it's a rare thing these days to attempt to turn the foe into a friend. Just saying that you guys are getting what you're giving and all the while each is "carrying signs that say hurray for our side".

[DeepEnd]

^ Sorry but what you saw as an olive branch others saw as a club. He's offering to have a discussion on his terms. That doesn't work. When I joined, I didn't tell the rest of the forum what the rules were. I paid attention and gave the respect I hoped to receive. So far, with a few notable exceptions, it's worked. If I did something dumb, I'd expect you or someone to let me know (not that there's any shortage of people who would be more than willing). IMHO, tmiblack should take the same approach. The fact that he hasn't reveals his true agenda.

[tmiblack]

So here I am again, four months on. Once again I will try to offer advice on this guitar and the use of strings. I tried to do this once before and I was "told off" by some members for re-opening an old post. What they failed to realise is that "old posts" are how many guitar enthusiasts find sites like HarmonyCentral. I removed my original post because of the poor replies it received.

 

Please remember a few things before you reply to my post:

 

I am trying to help:

 

1. The OP

2. Harmony Central

3. Anyone considering using this guitar

 

Plus I have 3 of these guitars in various versions and with different string set ups.

 

I use the guitar to gig

 

I use the guitar to record

 

I have owned / gigged / recorded with copies of the SBF for over 20 years, so please offer me the dignity of some respect in my use of the guitar (even if you want to get pissy because I opened an old forum post).

 

I own 2 SBF80s and a SBF 80 / 24 hybrid. The hybrid and one of the SBF80's are working on D'Addario EJ15's (phosphor bronze/ X-Light 0.10-0.47). The new SBF80 is on steel strung 0.09s.

 

In both formats the guitar produces a great acoustic sound. The steel strings are slightly brighter, as you would imagine, and the bronze are very true to an acoustic sound through cubase (with some slight moderation).

 

Most guitars need some amount of set up to work along the whole scale. The SBF's are reasonably close to perfect (on my copies) without any adjustment. They could do with some adjustment by the time you are using the 12th / 13th frets but as they are mostly an acoustic sound and most work is done on the lower frets, this is not a problem.

 

Some similar guitars that I have owned have suffered when I have used a capo, that is not a problem with my SBF's. They stay in tune when using a capo up to the 5th fret (no need for higher).

 

I recently changed the Hybrid to 0.8 steel strung and it sounds great. Very unusual for a mostly acoustic sounding guitar. I passed it to a friend who is very much of the "Eric Clapton" style of lead guitarists and he actually said he "enjoyed" playing it.

 

I admit that my playing style is suited to this guitar, so I have learned to adapt it in both live (with various pedals) and in recording with cubase.

 

Nearly a year ago I offered advice on this post but I received a poor response. Could we let it go and accept that all I am offering is advice to the OP and any one else who views it? If you decide to once again "have a go at me" so be it..... I will remove my post and advice again. Another "poor" response will just mean bad publicity for Harmony Central.

 

thanks in advance

 

tmiblack

[tmiblack]

So here I am again, four months on. Once again I will try to offer advice on this guitar and the use of strings. I tried to do this once before and I was "told off" by some members for re-opening an old post. What they failed to realise is that "old posts" are how many guitar enthusiasts find sites like HarmonyCentral. I removed my original post because of the poor replies it received.

 

Please remember a few things before you reply to my post:

 

I am trying to help:

 

1. The OP

2. Harmony Central

3. Anyone considering using this guitar

 

Plus I have 3 of these guitars in various versions and with different string set ups.

 

I use the guitar to gig

 

I use the guitar to record

 

I have owned / gigged / recorded with copies of the SBF for over 20 years, so please offer me the dignity of some respect in my use of the guitar (even if you want to get pissy because I opened an old forum post).

 

I own 2 SBF80s and a SBF 80 / 24 hybrid. The hybrid and one of the SBF80's are working on D'Addario EJ15's (phosphor bronze/ X-Light 0.10-0.47). The new SBF80 is on steel strung 0.09s.

 

In both formats the guitar produces a great acoustic sound. The steel strings are slightly brighter, as you would imagine, and the bronze are very true to an acoustic sound through cubase (with some slight moderation).

 

Most guitars need some amount of set up to work along the whole scale. The SBF's are reasonably close to perfect (on my copies) without any adjustment. They could do with some adjustment by the time you are using the 12th / 13th frets but as they are mostly an acoustic sound and most work is done on the lower frets, this is not a problem.

 

Some similar guitars that I have owned have suffered when I have used a capo, that is not a problem with my SBF's. They stay in tune when using a capo up to the 5th fret (no need for higher).

 

I recently changed the Hybrid to 0.8 steel strung and it sounds great. Very unusual for a mostly acoustic sounding guitar. I passed it to a friend who is very much of the "Eric Clapton" style of lead guitarists and he actually said he "enjoyed" playing it.

 

I admit that my playing style is suited to this guitar, so I have learned to adapt it in both live (with various pedals) and in recording with cubase.

 

Nearly a year ago I offered advice on this post but I received a poor response. Could we let it go and accept that all I am offering is advice to the OP and any one else who views it? If you decide to once again "have a go at me" so be it..... I will remove my post and advice again. Another "poor" response will just mean bad publicity for Harmony Central.

 

thanks in advance

 

tmiblack

[Idunno]

Looks like a decent playing guitar. I've been straying from the purely acoustic variety of guitars lately attempting to find a better place for me. The nylon string cross-over is where I'm currently at. I put .010s on my steel string guitar to put some ease into playing and to save on the fingernails. The cross-over is in no way a better sounding guitar over a steel string acoustic but I play it plugged. That's where the fun is. The SBF-80 looks like it'd be fun.

[TheImageDoctor]

Thanks tmiblack for reposting your information and recommendations. They are very much appreciated.

 

Since my original post, I have remained determined to chase the best sound from this guitar (SBF-80) and here's where I'm at...

 

I have moved to light gauge strings in an effort to reduce overload on the piezo element, but those seem to compromise the overall dynamics of the guitar sound. Even so, I will change to your rec (D'Addario EJ15's - phosphor bronze/ X-Light 0.10-0.47) on my next restring.

 

Since I play this guitar (almost exclusively) in a live "church praise team" setting (actually a Jewish Synagogue that believes in Christ as the Messiah, which is a very interesting paradigm but not particularly relevant to this discussion) I've also added a Roland GR-55 in the chain. This provides a lot of freedom for synthesized options (strings, Hammond, grunge electric, etc.) that work really well in our environment.

 

My default setting (on the GR-55) is my own custom "acoustic guitar" patch with chorus and reverb, blended about 50/50 with the actual SBF-80 onboard pickup. This gives me a touch of natural brightness and seems to reduce the quackiness. For finger picking, it's really superb (IMO) but it obviously lacks the dynamics (punch, body sounds, etc.) of an acoustic guitar when strumming.

 

I've also gone through several acoustic guitars and actually have a Seagull Artist series cutaway sitting behind me on stage. That's an $1100 guitar (played through a LR Baggs Paracoustic) and it still doesn't do what I want. I even tried switching out the internal system for Trinity soundboard pickups - which are definitely more natural sounding, but still not the sound I'm looking for.

 

To date, the most pure and natural sound I've ever heard from an amplified acoustic was an off-the-shelf Taylor 414 with the full Expression system. But that really was a freak of nature guitar (owned by another person who wouldn't sell it - LOL) because none of the Taylors I've tried since then come anywhere close to that one particular guitar, even the high end 8xx series! Plus, I'm now spoiled by the GR-55 sound flexibility which I don't think can be adapted to true acoustic anyway.

 

In the final analysis, I grab the Washburn SBF-80 (again and again) because it is so comfortable and easy to play, sound pretty good for most of what I do, and with the GR-55 gives me so many more sound options.

 

I think my only remaining questions on the SBF-80 are:

 

Can the OEM piezo element be replaced? (It looks like the little individual bridges are set in some sort of epoxy?)

 

And...

 

Has piezo technology improved enough (since the late 80's) that such a replacement would offer any improvement in sound? (Specifically reducing or eliminated the piezo quackiness?)

 

Thanks again for the feedback on this...Shalom :-)

[Idunno]

A rose by any other name...

 

TLDR -

 

I would suggest keeping up the search for an outboard method of obtaining the acoustic sound you're looking for instead of trying to coax it out of a guitar that doesn't have it to give. I have it in the Yamaha NTX1200R nylon string cross-over I play now coupled to a Fishman AS220 amp. It gives me some great reverb control but I'll probably have to get a chorus pedal to do some of the things I want to do. Acoustically, though, nylon strings do not produce the metallic sound that Piezo reproduces with that quack sound.

 

 

 

Otherwise if you're bored -

 

Piezo is Piezo. Alone, it's going to sound quacky. Filtered, it becomes an emulator. Those are the choices.

 

One of the things about bridge Piezo use is people seem to think it a fact it's transmitting the sound of your guitar. In that location it isn't. It's transmitting the sound of the strings, somewhat dampened by the material of the saddle(s), because the frequencies are not sent into the guitar first. An SBT (soundboard transducer - also Piezo) receives frequencies imparted to the top of the guitar. Ironically, most makers of SBTs suggest the best location to be the bridge plate immediately beneath the bridge inside the guitar. I laugh. This, again, is picking up mostly the sound of the strings in that location and not the soundboard (top). The shortest path for the frequencies to travel is directly into the Piezo, which we do not want, but that's where you find the factory people placing their USTs and SBTs. In those locations they give back better frequency response but the frequencies are direct-in from the strings and not received back (echoed) from the guitar. We want to emulate the sound of the guitar, not the strings (origin). We want to tap the sound we hear from the guitar. So far, from all the makers producing Piezo-incorporated systems, no bueno.

 

The "best" sound from any guitar is the whole package. To do that we need to sample the strings, the top, the air space inside and the immediate ambience outside the guitar (mic). That kind of package is a near miss in LR Baggs' (et al) dual source condenser mic and UST (undersaddle transducer) systems at large. Add a remotely placed SBT to that mix and you might be able to get a more genuine acoustic sound. The quack will still be there, though. I listen to a lot of onboard systems in the music I follow from amateur writers and players. I hear the quack but people new to onboard systems, without experienced ears, make no mention of the eye-squinting tonal pinches characteristic of Piezo.

 

The sbt's best placement is where the tone is pleasing, not necessarily the loudest (closest unimpeded placement to the bridge). That is the only true variable with Piezo placement. Utilizing a removable surface mounted SBT it's pretty easy to shop for the best location by skipping around the top. This can be done to ferret out treble-to-bass placements that make sense to your ear-memory of your guitar's unplugged sound. Again, it is not to find the loudest response but rather the best tonal response for the Piezo. I'm of the opinion that the immediate harshness of the generated signals sampled closest to the Piezo give it that characteristic sound. Allowing for distance and modulation effects of the soundboard, the generated signals bear significantly less quack and more of the fundamental of the desired frequencies. Amplification of the "quieter" signals will be necessarily increased.

 

There's a player on another site who ponied up his Martin D18 with a Mag p'up and got a million ataboys in response to the great sound of the guitar. Little did they know that the particular mag p'up is an emulator and not a producer of true sampled sound. That's probably the case with your SBF-80s as well. Your Piezo placements are not picking upthe sound of the guitar. They never will. But, in your case, there's nothing about those guitars to sample anyway. The Piezo is a sensitive creature and it will grab whatever is imparted into it. It's in the amplifier where all the demons lie, aside from the poor placement affecting the Piezo's signal.

 

Evidence - changing to a lighter gauge string affects the Piezo harshness, as stated herein (above), telling us that the larger the signal, the greater the noise. That's 101, though. If you had a guitar that gave you a more nuanced location for SBT use, you would experience a more genuine sampling of your guitars. But, that guitar doesn't have that placement option.

 

What you are limited to with that guitar lies within the emulator circuitry that is filtered to sound like an acoustic, similar to the D18 example above where that same circuitry is embedded in the mag p'up's output. Meaning, your guitar in no way without the emulator will sound like an acoustic - because it isn't an acoustic.