Is there any validity to this Ed Roman argument?

[dougbeens]

In one of Ed's many PRS-bashing "articles" he said something to the effect of 22-fret guitars sound worse than 24-fret models

 

....because on a 22, the neck coil is directly under where the 24th fret should be, which is a "node point" on an open-plucked string. He said it kills all the midrange in your tone or something....

 

I understand wave theory and all that jazz.... but does Ed have anything here?

 

I mean, it sounds like his theory would only hold up if all you ever played was either open strings or on the 12th fret - always on the neck pickup.

 

(So, really, the only people who should be concerned are those who play the first four notes of "Nothing Else Matters" incessantly?)

[cloudnine]

Ain't nothing wrong with nothing else matters...

 

http://edroman.aleclee.com/main.html

 

That site seems to make decent arguments.

[Shocker]

As far as the pure harmonic, yeah, you'd be right, it would only apply on open and 12th fretted notes. But I think the argument's a wash anyway. No one says a Les Paul or Strat or Tele sounds "less midrangey" on open chords. Nor do most Jazz guitars have 24 frets to accomodate for that. The truth is the fretted note harmonic node is going to move in relation to where the string is fretted. Whether it sounds good there or not is a matter of opinion, but not one that I believe people can withold blindfolded, etc.

 

I'd love him to listen to some chords and go "Oh yeah, that's a 22-fretter; no, no, that one's a 24." Likewise, any loss in the mids is easily recoverable by pickup choice.

 

//S

[Darkstorm]

What shocker said. Besides if there was significant truth to the claim. Then various mfg who went into bussiness & became sucusful, at improveing basic electric guitar design. Would have adjusted for thatneck pups placement. By moveing it back toward bridge a tad. Plenty of makers have spent time experimenting with diff placements of pups. The only real diff between neck pup placement on 22 & 24 fret guitars is. On 22 fret neck, neck pups slightly farther from bridge & thus slightly bassier. Imo.

 

Most of eds arguments for this or that are psuedo science. Much like those used by some extremist fundy churchies for this or that. Sounds well studied on the surface sometime. But earth isnt flat. Sun doesnt revolve around earth. If it did, eds reasons would make more sense.

[Kable]

I have a special secret to get more "midrange" out of my Fenders. I'll share it with you now:

 

It's called the "Midrange" knob on my amp.

 

I think there has to come a certain point where one must forget all these fine details and dynamics between wood/pickup position/scale length/nut type/saddle type/etc., etc. and realize that the amp (and by extension, stompboxes) is going to take over the "voice" of your tone. About the only thing that seems to be a constant and still makes a difference at that stage is pickup type. Even cheapo guitars sound kickass through a decent tube amp.

 

In other words, almost anything can be compensated with electronics.

[BowerR64]

He always seems to have an argument why his in shop built guitars are better then the top brand.

 

He has one on the steinberger section called "steinberger secrets" He claims that the graphite composite guitars are actualy cheaper to build then the wood ones and they cost 2X the price. He said that its a one step injection molded guitar that requires less parts and less labor and {censored}. Then says the wood models sound better look better but they dont make em anymore SO BUY FROM ME! I MAKE WOOD MODELS!

 

Ed Roman should really sell cars and not guitars, he sounds more like a car salesman.

[Shocker]

Eh, he's not too much different than most people. He's trying to move as much inventory as he can. If he has to put up bull{censored} and smokescreens to do so, it's our jobs to see through it. And I think most people do, with respect to him.

 

That he's not criminally negligent, though, is more a function of the necessity of his product rather than the veracity of his claims

 

(Gah, do I talk like that when I'm sleepy? Oh well. )

 

Night, guys.

 

//S

[BowerR64]

But he bashes other brands that he sells. Read what he says about the new acustic guitars he sells.

[k4df4l]

Trying to find truth in Ed Roman's rants is like well...let's not talk about that other thread

 

The first thing you have to keep in mind while browsing Ed's site is that he is selling guitars and has no problem bashing other brands to make his product look superior rather than allowing it to stand on the instruments own merits....JMHO.

[Pepi]

Originally posted by Kable I have a special secret to get more "midrange" out of my Fenders. I'll share it with you now: It's called the "Midrange" knob on my amp. I think there has to come a certain point where one must forget all these fine details and dynamics between wood/pickup position/scale length/nut type/saddle type/etc., etc. and realize that the amp (and by extension, stompboxes) is going to take over the "voice" of your tone. About the only thing that seems to be a constant and still makes a difference at that stage is pickup type. Even cheapo guitars sound kickass through a decent tube amp. In other words, almost anything can be compensated with electronics.

 

Dude! You should have got a patent before giving that info out

[ECFan]

While Ed Roman's 22 vs 24 fret argument is interesting to consider, as is pickup placement in general, it's pretty much irrelevant as to the the actual way the neck pickup sounds, and points out the difference between theory and reality.

 

For instance, if his theory was true then the neck pickup on a good Tele wouldn't produce one of the sweetest sounds on the planet.

 

The disruption in the magnetic field by the strings vibration is what causes electric current to flow in the pickup coils. And the fact is that a pickup's magnetic field is significantly larger than the surface area of the visible magnet poles (i.e., the point directly under 24th fret "node"). If you think about the lines of magnetic flux three dimensionally, you can see how they bend back around from one pole to the other, resulting in an eliptical pattern.

 

Sorry for rambling!

[mbratch]

In theory it may be true, but it's probably a miniscule or mostly inaudible difference.

 

Also, if it's true that a 22-fret guitar has such a problem in open position and integer divisions of that position (like 12th), then a 22-fret guitar would have problems in other positions (like 10th or 11th or something like that) by the same argument. In other words, the length of your scale wouldn't eliminate the problem, it would only move it to a different position on your guitar neck.

[Jim_Soloway]

Complete horse {censored}. In fact, it's the one thing about Ed's rants that I've always thought was the silliest.

[Crunchtime]

Total BS. Everyone knows the creamiest leads are played on 22 fret models.

[guitarmook]

Does Gibson even MAKE a 24 fret Les Paul?

 

Nope...

 

 

Has it affected their sales?

 

 

Nope...

 

 

Have all (any???) of the importers who are copying the Les Paul 'improved' the design by going to a 24-fret neck?

 

 

Nope...

 

 

 

NOW do you think it's a big deal?

[GuitArtMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Tele's neck pickup in a node position? I thought there is one (or more) harmonic that the Tele's neck pickup wont pickup because of it's positioning. Somebody better warn all the Tele players out there!!!

[syrinx]

when les paul bonged the "new" les paul- the SG it was because the front pickup was move back to where it would have been- had the guitar been 24 frets. he thought that was a tone killer and took his name off. Funny how that is 180 from what ed says. Lets see who do you trust- Les or Ed?

EDITED- this is purported to be -ed. who else could make a harley chopper look gay.

[The Craqster]

 

Originally posted by guitarmook Does Gibson even MAKE a 24 fret Les Paul? Nope... Has it affected their sales? Nope... Have all (any???) of the importers who are copying the Les Paul 'improved' the design by going to a 24-fret neck? Nope... NOW do you think it's a big deal?

 

Your post is retarded. If Gibson was interested in any sort of innovation, they would have done so a long time ago. Those who buy Gibsons are happy with 50 -year-old technology, regardless of whether or not there is a better instrument for the money.

[Shocker]

 

Originally posted by Distantkool Your post is retarded. If Gibson was interested in any sort of innovation, they would have done so a long time ago. Those who buy Gibsons are happy with 50 -year-old technology, regardless of whether or not there is a better instrument for the money.

 

It's not retarded. People who buy a Gibson Les Paul or SG (or a Fender strat or tele) don't need or want 24 frets, or they'd have bought some alternative. There are a billion different guitar designs out now, so you're not limited to just an SG or just a telecaster, or what have you. His post makes perfect sense; people make great music with 22 frets, and Gibson plays to that market.

 

A strat is 50 year old technology too, but it's still pretty damn useful today.

 

//S

[ranalli]

 

Originally posted by Distantkool Your post is retarded. If Gibson was interested in any sort of innovation, they would have done so a long time ago. Those who buy Gibsons are happy with 50 -year-old technology, regardless of whether or not there is a better instrument for the money.

 

 

 

 

This is 100% true and the CORE of their whole marketing concept.

 

 

Guitarists for the most part are complete traditionalists which is why you see the same designs and body shapes over and over again.

 

Gibson knows this and keeps their market in line with the old stuff....even though if 24 fret Les Pauls were the originals...the that's what everyone would be buying now and people would be clammoring about the need for 24 frets on a Les Paul.

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by GuitArtMan Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Tele's neck pickup in a node position? I thought there is one (or more) harmonic that the Tele's neck pickup wont pickup because of it's positioning. Somebody better warn all the Tele players out there!!!

 

This is one of the excuses people make for the Tele neck pickup being "muddy".

 

If the 2nd harmonic nodes (1/4 the string length) are, in fact an issue, then a capo will solve it, or a 21-fret neck.

I rather doubt that it is an issue for anything other than tuning the old fashioned way by comparing 5th-7th-fret harmonics through a tuner using the neck pup signal.

[MoreCowbell]

 

Originally posted by guitarmook Does Gibson even MAKE a 24 fret Les Paul? Nope...

 

 

Although I think your point remains the same, I believe the Les Paul DC models are 24 fret.

[robt57]

Originally posted by k4df4l Trying to find truth in Ed Roman's rants is like well...let's not talk about that other thread The first thing you have to keep in mind while browsing Ed's site is that he is selling guitars and has no problem bashing other brands to make his product look superior rather than allowing it to stand on the instruments own merits....JMHO.

 

I liked his 'Only an asshole would buy a guitar on eBay' Rant.

 

The question is, now that he sells guitars on eBay has that rant on his website been eliminated or simply had it's spin altered for his benefit ??

 

EDIT - I checked, his eBay rants are still there. Although I cannot find any auctions with a quick search on eBay for them selling anything currently, I can assure you about 6 months ago I saw several...

[Shocker]

Originally posted by ranalli This is 100% true and the CORE of their whole marketing concept. Guitarists for the most part are complete traditionalists which is why you see the same designs and body shapes over and over again. Gibson knows this and keeps their market in line with the old stuff....even though if 24 fret Les Pauls were the originals...the that's what everyone would be buying now and people would be clammoring about the need for 24 frets on a Les Paul.

Yeah, all those old, outdated tones from the 50's, 60's and 70's people are trying to get away from... Who wants to sound like Hendrix or Clapton?

 

Think of how awesome they could have been with only 2 more frets! {censored}ing Gibson and Fender...

 

//S

[Sun Devil]

Originally posted by Shocker Yeah, all those old, outdated tones from the 50's, 60's and 70's people are trying to get away from... Who wants to sound like Hendrix or Clapton? Think of how awesome they could have been with only 2 more frets! {censored}ing Gibson and Fender... //S

 

A lot of Ed's theories are usually to benefit Ed.

 

...For example, the guy that bought into Ed's "Remove the PRS Heel from Hell" rant. He had Ed make the mod and it made his PRS sound crappy and thinner.

 

I'd take a lot of Ed's theories with a grain of salt.