license to upload a cover tune for $1??

[WaterMoc]

I'm the only Internet savvy person in my band, so I take care of our Reverbnation and Facebook stuff...they want me to upload more of our cover songs but I am worried about copyright infringement so I try to stick to our (few) originals.

 

Now they're telling me, someone's girlfriend says it's okay, you can get license to put a cover on the Internet for $1 a song..somewhere. I said TELL ME WHERE and I tried googling but can't figure out what she's talking about.

 

Does anyone know? It sounds bogus to me, but of course they think I'm being too much of a stickler. Maybe it's because my company had to pay out $30k for copyright infringement, I don't know.

[A. Einstein]

Harry Fox Agency. They take care of everything. You pay royalties if you are distributing the songs

 

http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

[Iamthesky]

I'm the designated person to know this stuff in my band, so I understand completely where you're coming from.

 

No, it doesn't work like that. You are correct. Stick with the originals.

 

It's basically just not worth uploading cover songs to RN or FB. You can get a license for it, but figure at least $350 and going up from there.

 

http://www.boutell.com/newfaq/creating/licensecovers.html

 

is a pretty good link for convincing anyone it isn't worth the effort.

 

Of course some artists do upload covers -- I've seen some pages from cover bands who have 5 or 6 of them -- but it's a pretty safe bet that they don't have a license. My personal opinion is that I'd want other people to respect my music, so I respect theirs and follow the rules, however byzantine and impractical those rules may be.

 

(The good news is as I understand it you can at least use covers in your EPK, under the same conditions as if you'd used covers on a "for promotional use only -- not for resale" CD that you handed physically to a venue manager.)

[WaterMoc]

I'm the designated person to know this stuff in my band, so I understand completely where you're coming from. No, it doesn't work like that. You are correct. Stick with the originals. It's basically just not worth uploading cover songs to RN or FB. You can get a license for it, but figure at least $350 and going up from there. http://www.boutell.com/newfaq/creating/licensecovers.html is a pretty good link for convincing anyone it isn't worth the effort.

 

Thanks, that's what I thought. Only, these ol' boys can't hardly deal with this internet stuff - oh wait maybe my kid can help me with it...

 

What's really irritating is I am both a lawyer who does intellectual property work and I've been doing web work for years. So these guys that do NEITHER are wondering what my problem is! I have something to lose, while their only assets are their instruments. But in the 10-15 seconds of their attention span that I get, it will not sink in and I will keep hearing about this $1 deal ad nauseam.

[daddymack]

Legally, yes, you need to get the license from the HFA, as Dr. Einstein mentioned above....but, really, as long as you are not distributing the music, or getting any compensation for the materials, and using it as (and clearly labeling it as) 'promotional samples only' you can likely get away with posting them...'officially', I'm not saying 'do it', I'm jus'sayin' as long as there is no money changing hands, I seriously doubt the PROs will even bother sending you a C&D letter.

[WaterMoc]

 

Legally, yes, you need to get the license from the HFA, as Dr. Einstein mentioned above....but, really, as long as you are not distributing the music, or getting any compensation for the materials, and using it as (and clearly labeling it as) 'promotional samples only' you can likely get away with posting them...'officially', I'm not saying 'do it' , I'm jus'sayin' as long as there is no money changing hands, I seriously doubt the PROs will even bother sending you a C&D letter.

 

 

Well that's a consideration. C&D is fine, and I have posted covers and then deleted a week or so later. But it seems kind of hinky because Reverbnation asks if you have rights to the song, and you have to say yes of course. But that's probably just to protect their hides.

 

What I fear is being made an example of with a fine...it happened with music downloaders, don't know about this kind of use.

 

ANYWAY, using boutell.com, I drilled right down to the BMI online licensing center, and the page doesn't work....neither does the APPLY button at BMI..gahh.

[yeahi]

Be careful; the information contained herein is correct, but be careful with the definition of "distributing" as it may not be what you consider as distributing. It's one of the exclusive rights under the copyright act, and as such, has a very broad meaning. I think the bigger argument going on these days is whether or not simply streaming something is distributing. But, to me, I would consider it distributing, even though you are not actually sending the files to anyone.

[daddymack]

 

Be careful; the information contained herein is correct, but be careful with the definition of "distributing" as it may not be what you consider as distributing. It's one of the exclusive rights under the copyright act, and as such, has a very broad meaning. I think the bigger argument going on these days is whether or not simply streaming something is distributing. But, to me, I would consider it distributing, even though you are not actually sending the files to anyone.

 

Historically, the test has been if their was monetary consideration involved, then it was considered distributed. This means buskers, technically, need to pay to play in public if they are passing the hat...but will the PROs or the publishers go after them? Not likely, as there typically is not enough money involved to justify the cost.

[scarecrowbob]

"It's basically just not worth uploading cover songs to RN or FB. You can get a license for it, but figure at least $350 and going up from there."

 

How do you figure that?

 

There is a pretty basic formula and set of rules, but basically it works out so that if you're talking about a demo of a mediocre band there is no actual liability or reason to bother with royalties on a cover.

 

We all have the right to record and distribute audio recordings of works that are already published. Granting a licence is compulsory. And you don't have to wonder about how much it costs. It costs around 9.5c per permanent copy, sold or unsold, to be paid to the owner of the mechanical rights to a work. There is a different formula for permanent downloads, interactive streams, and non-interactive streams.

 

But I don't know what those formulas are. Because it doesn't matter. You can find out what it is pretty easily, and if I was trying to sell or seriously promote a large act, I'd know. I also wouldn't go through HFA unless I couldn't locate the rights holder to whom I could deliver the correct form off the copyright office's site-- you don't need to pay HFA.

 

For crappy demos, though, it is such a small number that it does not matter one bit.

 

IANAL, free advice is free, and all that. But this isn't rocket science.

[A. Einstein]

If you are a well known artist, or band, then making great covers of old songs can create a profit. Basically the international law says that any released song can be covered, and usually it us enough when you fill out the song application form and filling in the original composer, lyricist as well any other IP owner on that particular song. There are up to 700 covers, or more of almost any timeless song from the past. The original author can not deny that you make a cover.

[WaterMoc]

What I understand from the Boutell site is that we need a performance license to stream. Most our material is BMI owned but I cannot get their online account site to work...I emailed them and got a server ack but no other response.

 

It may be overkill, because we're just a run of the mill band, trying to maintain some sort of web presence because people ask about it. Also, it's fun to post recordings so old friends can hear what you're sounding like these days. Ego stuff.

 

Of course, we hope a clubowner might hire us based on our sound. But I'm not going to let the band use me to do this for them, just because I have the know-how.

[daddymack]

Just put up some MP3s as demos, not for sale...again, this will not generate any major problems as long as you are not selling the songs or offering them as DL...

[yeahi]

 

Historically, the test has been if their was monetary consideration involved, then it was considered distributed. This means buskers, technically, need to pay to play in public if they are passing the hat...but will the PROs or the publishers go after them? Not likely, as there typically is not enough money involved to justify the cost.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Monetary consideration has nothing to do with distribution. In addition, "buskers" are not violating the distribution right, as distribution is defined under the 1976 Copyright Act as the right "to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending." As the buskers are not selling or transferring ownership, they do not have to have a license. HOWEVER, the buskers are violating the Public Performance right, and a PRO, in their ideal world, would charge him for that public performance. In addition, PROs do not go after people for distribution, they are only concerned with unlicensed public performances.

 

The only time monetary consideration is usually discussed in copyright law will be when discussing the Fair Use Exception.

[Iamthesky]

 

There is a different formula for permanent downloads, interactive streams, and non-interactive streams. But I don't know what those formulas are. Because it doesn't matter. You can find out what it is pretty easily, and if I was trying to sell or seriously promote a large act, I'd know.

 

 

Those formulas involve statistics and information that third party social sites like Facebook and Reverbnation will not or cannot provide. You can find out the formula, sure, but you can't find out some of the numbers you need to plug into it.

 

On the other hand, on the band's own website you have control and access to viewing statistics, and while it's much more complicated than 9.1c per song, it's possible to post covers and know exactly how much you owe. Again, I'm not sure how many of those bands bother to pay the fee -- it's a lot more of a hassle than simply paying out $91 for a run of 1000 CDs.

[elsongs]

 

Harry Fox Agency. They take care of everything. You pay royalties if you are distributing the songs http://www.harryfox.com/index.jsp

 

 

I'm sorry, everyone says, "Oh go to the Harry Fox website" but doesn't make any mention of the process. I went there for a song I'm planning to cover for my upcoming album and was sort of confused by how to go about all the steps. It's like asking someone how to get to drive a car and being given the answer, "Oh just go to the DMV..."

[WaterMoc]

 

Those formulas involve statistics and information that third party social sites like Facebook and Reverbnation will not or cannot provide. You can find out the formula, sure, but you can't find out some of the numbers you need to plug into it. On the other hand, on the band's own website you have control and access to viewing statistics, and while it's much more complicated than 9.1c per song, it's possible to post covers and know exactly how much you owe. Again, I'm not sure how many of those bands bother to pay the fee -- it's a lot more of a hassle than simply paying out $91 for a run of 1000 CDs.

 

 

OK that is where I am now. I got through to BMI, and they say I have to own the site to do stream the cover. So I built a quick-and-dirty site using Blogger, but still do not know how I can post any audio or video without the use of a third-party site like Soundcloud or YouTube.

 

Maybe there is a gadget I don't know about..

[A. Einstein]

 

I'm sorry, everyone says, "Oh go to the Harry Fox website" but doesn't make any mention of the process. I went there for a song I'm planning to cover for my upcoming album and was sort of confused by how to go about all the steps. It's like asking someone how to get to drive a car and being given the answer, "Oh just go to the DMV..."

 

 

I have no clue how the proceeding are at Harry Fox. I am never in the posiition where I have to licence a song for a new recording since we own the publishing of many songs, it happens all in the house.

[kmart]

 

I'm sorry, everyone says, "Oh go to the Harry Fox website" but doesn't make any mention of the process. I went there for a song I'm planning to cover for my upcoming album and was sort of confused by how to go about all the steps. It's like asking someone how to get to drive a car and being given the answer, "Oh just go to the DMV..."

 

 

The information here (http://www.harryfox.com/public/FAQ.jsp ) isn't enough?

[WaterMoc]

 

The information here ( http://www.harryfox.com/public/FAQ.jsp ) isn't enough?

 

 

Don't know about elsongs but I checked that out and it addresses only a mechanical license for distributing the cover by cd or download, when what I need is a performance license according to boutelle.com.

 

But that may be impossible unless I figure out some way to post an audio without using a 3rd party host like soundcloud.

[kmart]

 

Don't know about elsongs but I checked that out and it addresses only a mechanical license for distributing the cover by cd or download, when what I need is a performance license according to boutelle.com. But that may be impossible unless I figure out some way to post an audio without using a 3rd party host like soundcloud.

 

 

"How do I obtain a mechanical license?

If you would like to obtain a license to make and distribute less than 2,500 physical recordings or permanent digital downloads within the U.S., you do not need to set up an HFA Licensing Account. Please visit HFA Songfile to submit the appropriate mechanical licensing form.

 

If you are distributing more than 2,500 units or are interested in licensing other formats, click here:

http://www.harryfox.com/public/MechanicalLicenseslic.jsp"

 

In other words, according to the information on their site, you need a mechanical license.

At least that's how I read/understand it. I believe you're catching yourself up on the fact taht you're not using a physical medium, but I don't think that excludes your usage.

 

 

Rather than leave it a question mark, why don't you just contact them directly, explain exactly what you want to do, and find out from the experts?

[WaterMoc]

 

" Rather than leave it a question mark, why don't you just contact them directly, explain exactly what you want to do, and find out from the experts?

 

 

Well as I indicated above, I am in contact with BMI now and they are being very helpful. But they say I must own the website from which the music is streamed, regardless of which type of license I need. Meaning using the band's domain and not someone else's. That's as far as I've gotten.

 

But now I am hung up on how to do this on a common platform like Blogger or Wordpress.com with the band domain, without using a 3rd party site like Soundcloud or YouTube to actually upload the file. It looks like Wordpress.com has some sort of utility to post music directly, but their app is otherwise a PITA to use compared to Blogger.

 

So that's where I am now, and I still don't know where this person heard about an EZ way to license for $1...but I suspect once I figure out the site problem the rest with BMI may be easy.

[Iamthesky]

It's important to distinguish between online downloads and online streaming. The former is analogous to physical CD sales, and is simple to license; the latter is a totally different animal and follows a completely different set of complex rules and fees.

[WaterMoc]

 

It's important to distinguish between online downloads and online streaming. The former is analogous to physical CD sales, and is simple to license; the latter is a totally different animal and follows a completely different set of complex rules and fees.

 

 

I did distinguish between streaming and download, and definitly to BMI. But they say I still need a mechanical license, whereas the Boutelle site said I needed a performance license..oh well.

 

But bottom line, I finaly got the website domain squared away, and BMI online licensing sent me a contract, but there is a $324/yr minimum which is just overkill for a weekend bar band. I mean, this is just a place for people to go, when they want to know if we have a website, and hear demo tunes and get contact info & schedule. A Blogger site is free, so that part is fine. But trying to be strictly legal about videos & sound files does not seem doable for us.

 

So I contacted the source of this $1/cover rumor to find out more but she has not replied yet.

 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's help!

[HKSblade1]

Tons of cover bands have streamed mp3s at their sites, links to youtube for video. Some are full songs, some are clips. I think the best way is to have compilations of short clips, then there is no way for them to suggest your streaming audio was for sale. FWIW there are so many bands out there using mp3 covers for promotion and the main distro chains have know this for years.

 

Imagine how BMI /ASCAP etc could shell teenagers hacking instruments on youtube. OTOH those that have "subscriptions" on the YT channels or sites or have massive hits for monetary gain I'm sure will hear from those agencies.

 

Reverbnation and other promotional sites have disclaimers to protect their butts. They know the majority will click the "I agree" button without ever reading the disclaimers.

[WaterMoc]

 

Tons of cover bands have streamed mp3s at their sites, links to youtube for video. Some are full songs, some are clips. I think the best way is to have compilations of short clips, then there is no way for them to suggest your streaming audio was for sale. FWIW there are so many bands out there using mp3 covers for promotion and the main distro chains have know this for years. Imagine how BMI /ASCAP etc could shell teenagers hacking instruments on youtube. OTOH those that have "subscriptions" on the YT channels or sites or have massive hits for monetary gain I'm sure will hear from those agencies.

 

 

OK this is what I'm up against, since the source of the $1 rumor has faded away on me and won't respond to my queries - should I just hang it out there and take the chance? Like you say, plenty of other bands do, like our competitors posting vid after vid of various covers . And the band thinks I should just do it, too, I guess.

 

But the penalty to me would be high, whereas they have nothing to lose. Guess I'll just have to think about it some more.

 

Thanks. I think the rumor was just BS.