What once was, again it will be

[richardmac]

Yeah, I'd agree with a lot of that. But I wish the music biz DID have a real minor league system. You make a good point that bands who have FANS can do this, that, and the other thing. But I believe that getting those fans is tougher than ever, because there are fewer places for bands to play in general and original bands to play in particular. I've lived near Tampa for about 20 years and if you were to ask me who the best all original band in Tampa is, I'd draw a blank. I know some all original bands, but none that I'd consider "popular." None. I can, however, tell you that the most popular cover band is Stormbringer, and they can do a gig anywhere on any night and have 100+ people show up, and they charge 4 figures.

 

There's no lack of local original talent. There are some great artists here. They play the same coffee shops I used to.

 

My point being that it's easy to say that the good bands will get fans and then they'll rise to the top, but you really need to be playing whatever music is hip and cool in your city at the time to really gain attention. Yes, there are exceptions, but there always are.

 

You are 100% that this is supply and demand. And yes, the majority of opportunities out there are for DJ's, Karaoke, and the one you didn't mention, solo performers. That's what I do - I perform covers and originals on guitar and/or piano, with and without backing tracks. Ten years ago I would have made fun of this and now I'm doing it, and I'm having a blast. And my current model has been done before, and I think it is going to get more popular as the years go by and the "demand" for original music continues to decrease.

 

But first. I think the demand for live original music HAS decreased, and it's because anyone can hear any song ever recorded anywhere and anytime they want. OK, that's overstating things, but you get my drift. With the Internet and the iPod and all that, people have waaay more music than they could ever listen to. So the idea of "Geez, I want to hear something new and great" just isn't there to the same extent it was in 1983.

 

So when I decided to start gigging with my original music, I found coffee shops and other places to play, but no real audiences to win over - they just weren't there. Only other musicians. And it got to be a real bummer. So I started putting more covers into my set, and I got more opportunity to play in front of more people, but the interest in my original music (which is at this point folk/rock for older people) wasn't there. But I was having fun playing the covers and started to actually get paid. And to be honest, I got bored playing JUST my own music, again and again. The nice thing about covers is that there's always some fun song to learn that you don't know yet.

 

So I refined my cover act - I'm playing covers that appeal to people in the 35 to 65 demographic - Billy Joel, Elton John, some REM, a little Police, Gordon Lightfoot, James Taylor. And I also put in some of my original tunes that are in the same vein as those folks.

 

I can play just my own songs and make ten bucks in a tip jar for three hours work and play in front of 5 people at a time. Or I can play covers and some of my songs, make up to $50 an hour, and play in front of groups from 20 to 300 people. And have more fun. Like you said - supply and demand. My rate is $50 per hour, but I'm flexible and if I have nothing else going on can go as low as $20 per hour, but I won't step out the front door for less.

 

I know exactly where I am in the food chain but I don't care. To me it goes like this:

 

Original Band

Originals and Covers Band

Original Solo Performer

Cover Band

Cover and Original Solo Performer *** This is me

Cover Solo Performer

Karaoke

DJ

 

It's funny that the popularity and demand go in the opposite direction.

[flatfinger]

Supply and demand is a simplified model of what can sometimes be complex .....

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity

 

 

Also , Live shows are cool if you only play local venues ; I just took a long trip in a vehicle which was a gas pig , and there were so many many tankfulls of go go juice that where over $100 ! This isn't a very good way to go for small bands without an extensive fan base ..

 

If I weren't getting pretty bored :bor:with all this , I'd post the linkys to articles about Imagen Heaps touring difficulties , which also include Live Nation ( the new promoter / live venue booking monopoly) middel-maning the dog dodo out of her revenue stream).

[kurdy]

 

You are 100% that this is supply and demand. And yes, the majority of opportunities out there are for DJ's, Karaoke, and the one you didn't mention, solo performers. That's what I do - I perform covers and originals on guitar and/or piano, with and without backing tracks. Ten years ago I would have made fun of this and now I'm doing it, and I'm having a blast. And my current model has been done before, and I think it is going to get more popular as the years go by and the "demand" for original music continues to decrease. But first. I think the demand for live original music HAS decreased, and it's because anyone can hear any song ever recorded anywhere and anytime they want. OK, that's overstating things, but you get my drift. With the Internet and the iPod and all that, people have waaay more music than they could ever listen to. So the idea of "Geez, I want to hear something new and great" just isn't there to the same extent it was in 1983. So when I decided to start gigging with my original music, I found coffee shops and other places to play, but no real audiences to win over - they just weren't there. Only other musicians. And it got to be a real bummer. So I started putting more covers into my set, and I got more opportunity to play in front of more people, but the interest in my original music (which is at this point folk/rock for older people) wasn't there. But I was having fun playing the covers and started to actually get paid. And to be honest, I got bored playing JUST my own music, again and again. The nice thing about covers is that there's always some fun song to learn that you don't know yet. So I refined my cover act - I'm playing covers that appeal to people in the 35 to 65 demographic - Billy Joel, Elton John, some REM, a little Police, Gordon Lightfoot, James Taylor. And I also put in some of my original tunes that are in the same vein as those folks.

 

 

This got me thinking, this really seems to be the right approach. I sometimes visit the BWTB forum, and there seems to be a rivalry over there between the so-called “original” and “cover” bands. And it seems to me, logically, it makes smart business sense to be a little of both--tailoring the set list to whomever the audience is. I think original artists could benefit from learning as many covers as they can, so they could play those better-paying gigs if they wanted to. The Beatles were a cover band long before they started doing their own stuff. So were a lot of other bands of their era. But these days, there seems to be some unspoken rule that you have to be one or the other. Maybe that’s a mentality that needs to change.

 

The appeal of cover bands is that people like hearing songs they are familiar with. So it seems to me, the best way for a performer to get audiences into his/her original music is to get them as familiar with the originals as they are to the covers. Using the covers as bait, and once they are drawn in, showing them what else you’ve got. To me accomplishing this aim requires—I’m reluctant to use the word “fans”, because to me this only refers to an upper class of performers—but just people who will like what you do enough to want to know where your next gig is going to be. Repeat audiences, I guess you could call them. I know it’s easier said than done, but to me, this is where the focus should probably go, if you want any traction on a local level. People aren’t going to be familiar enough with what you do as a performer, if they only see you once.

 

And I totally agree about playing covers being more enjoyable. As much as I like performing originals, it often feels more like a recital to me. The times I feel I can really get down and express myself as a musician and singer is through other peoples’ music—seems strange but it’s true. I’m too close to my own stuff to get as much enjoyment out of playing it. Though given the choice, I’d rather concentrate on my original songs for reasons of ego, I agree that covers are where the fun is, so why not take advantage of that? I’ve even entertained the thought of putting my keyboard away entirely—and just becoming the lead singer of a cover band. I have enough confidence in my singing ability that I know it’s something I could definitely handle. Might be creatively unsatisfying, but it would certainly be an easier gig (no equipment to carry), not to mention a heck of a lot of fun. At this point, I’m still attached to the idea of being kind of a troubadour, and finding an outlet for my originals, so I think I’ll concentrate on that for now. But certainly something to consider in the future.

[richardmac]

 

@ Some point dollar signs don't really matter to alot of musicians, the very essence of what keeps them creative and productive will remain to be the sheer fun & exhileration, expression & passion, pleasure & personal satisfaction, that is creating, performing, and recording music.

 

 

REALLY well put. Agree 100%. That is exactly what keeps me doing music. I have all three in my life (creating, performing, recording) and it definitely makes me happy.

[richardmac]

 

This got me thinking, this really seems to be the right approach. I sometimes visit the BWTB forum, and there seems to be a rivalry over there between the so-called “original” and “cover” bands. And it seems to me, logically, it makes smart business sense to be a little of both--tailoring the set list to whomever the audience is. I think original artists could benefit from learning as many covers as they can, so they could play those better-paying gigs if they wanted to. The Beatles were a cover band long before they started doing their own stuff. So were a lot of other bands of their era. But these days, there seems to be some unspoken rule that you have to be one or the other. Maybe that’s a mentality that needs to change. The appeal of cover bands is that people like hearing songs they are familiar with. So it seems to me, the best way for a performer to get audiences into his/her original music is to get them as familiar with the originals as they are to the covers. Using the covers as bait, and once they are drawn in, showing them what else you’ve got. To me accomplishing this aim requires—I’m reluctant to use the word “fans”, because to me this only refers to an upper class of performers—but just people who will like what you do enough to want to know where your next gig is going to be. Repeat audiences, I guess you could call them. I know it’s easier said than done, but to me, this is where the focus should probably go, if you want any traction on a local level. People aren’t going to be familiar enough with what you do as a performer, if they only see you once. And I totally agree about playing covers being more enjoyable. As much as I like performing originals, it often feels more like a recital to me. The times I feel I can really get down and express myself as a musician and singer is through other peoples’ music—seems strange but it’s true. I’m too close to my own stuff to get as much enjoyment out of playing it. Though given the choice, I’d rather concentrate on my original songs for reasons of ego, I agree that covers are where the fun is, so why not take advantage of that? I’ve even entertained the thought of putting my keyboard away entirely—and just becoming the lead singer of a cover band. I have enough confidence in my singing ability that I know it’s something I could definitely handle. Might be creatively unsatisfying, but it would certainly be an easier gig (no equipment to carry), not to mention a heck of a lot of fun. At this point, I’m still attached to the idea of being kind of a troubadour, and finding an outlet for my originals, so I think I’ll concentrate on that for now. But certainly something to consider in the future.

 

 

It's true - playing other people's songs first USED to be how it was done, and we all got away from that, but I think that artists will eventually start getting back to it. But you know, as far as the "traction" thing goes... maybe traction is overrated. There are guys who play and sell original music in tourist destinations who make decent dollars, and there's a steady flow of new tourists coming through all the time. They don't need any traction, they just need sales. The problem with traction is that it is temporary - you might be the new cool hip sound in town for a while, but eventually you won't be. And some new flavor of the month will be.

 

The nice thing about covers is that they're welcome almost everywhere, and you're often playing in places that want live music and already have a crowd. Don't get me wrong - repeat customers and word of mouth will get you more gigs for sure. In that sense, you want repeat business and you want a good reputation.

 

Actually, I take it back, partially... for a band, you probably do want to develop a following, if you want to get booked continually. However, for a solo performer, I think it doesn't matter so much. You're playing at places with fewer people than bands play, and because you're inexpensive (compared to a band) there are more places to play.

 

I've been hanging out over at BWTB, too, because I feel I can learn a lot from those guys. I'd really like to evolve my own show to the point where I can perform several "different" shows to make me more versatile - it would be great to have a "dinner set" with more laid back background music (which is closer to what I do now) and also have a dance/party set with upbeat music that people could dance to. I only book myself for laid back situations right now but I live in terror of the customer or venue saying "OK, now we'd like some dance music! Crank it up!" And I have nothing. So I'm looking at the dance/party/drinking set lists those guys are doing and thinking about how I might be able to pull some of those songs off. Jessie's Girl wouldn't be much of a musical challenge. But I'd blow up my voice trying to sing some of the harder rock songs, so obviously I'd have to avoid those.

[kurdy]

 

Actually, I take it back, partially... for a band, you probably do want to develop a following, if you want to get booked continually. However, for a solo performer, I think it doesn't matter so much. You're playing at places with fewer people than bands play, and because you're inexpensive (compared to a band) there are more places to play. I've been hanging out over at BWTB, too, because I feel I can learn a lot from those guys. I'd really like to evolve my own show to the point where I can perform several "different" shows to make me more versatile - it would be great to have a "dinner set" with more laid back background music (which is closer to what I do now) and also have a dance/party set with upbeat music that people could dance to. I only book myself for laid back situations right now but I live in terror of the customer or venue saying "OK, now we'd like some dance music! Crank it up!" And I have nothing. So I'm looking at the dance/party/drinking set lists those guys are doing and thinking about how I might be able to pull some of those songs off. Jessie's Girl wouldn't be much of a musical challenge. But I'd blow up my voice trying to sing some of the harder rock songs, so obviously I'd have to avoid those.

 

 

Yeah, actually this kind of stuff is good to know, because I’ve been hoping to start moving beyond the open-mic thing to doing some real gigs as a solo performer. First, I’d like to have a CD of my songs available, which I’ve been working on it for the past several years. However, the recording process has been so painfully slow (one of the drawbacks of being a bedroom studio musician doing it all yourself). My goal is to finally have it all ready by next year, and then hopefully decide where to go from there. At this point, I have no plans to move beyond locally, but it’s especially helpful to hear what works and what doesn’t with the average audience, which is whom I know I’ll most likely be playing for. I suppose the challenge in particular for a solo performer is moving beyond just "background music" for dinner crowds to actually be a performer that people perceive as worth their attention. It's a challenge for any band really, but especially for solo performers who don't have all the bells and whistles.

[richardmac]

Yes and no. Some of my gigs are at little restaurants, coffee shops, etc, and I'm the background music. But I have a gig next month where I'm playing an outdoor party and I'm the entertainment. I'm it. So there are lots of different types of places and situations for solo performers. They are all good opportunities to slip in your own music and plug it.

 

I've got a gig booked in November (I LOVE it when I can book that far ahead in advance) for a military benefit... that will be an actual show, with some slow dancing but probably not faster dancing because it's going to be an older crowd (50+ and up.) They've specifically asked for a night of slow music. I'm going to slip in a few upbeat songs anyway. There will be up to 300 people there. THAT will be fun!

 

Background music gigs are crappy for selling your own music. Shows are much, much better. So I'm really trying to do more shows and less background music, but really I will play in front of any receptive group, because it's all fun.

[Matximus]

 

People will always pay for something they want if they feel it's worth the money. Why would a bar rather have a college kid (who paid the bar to let him sing along with his ipod) than have a band play and pay the band? Because there is no DEMAND for the bands music. Bands with actual fans have no problem selling tickets to their shows and for many they sell out. There is a demand for their music which they supply. And most of these bands started out playing for free because at that time, they were not in demand. The music "industry" has never changed... It's still supply and demand. How it's supplied to meet the demand has changed... but the industry hasn't. Customers pay for what they want to hear/see. Musicians try to make something the customers will pay for. .

 

 

Epic Post! Right on the money and couldn't agree more!

 

And I'm thrilled live music is giong back toward performers being required to play familiar music that people recognize if they want to make a buck. That is certainly the way it used to be and the way it should be - popular music has suffered greatly since it began placing such a premium on untested & new material.

[Poker99]

 

Epic Post! Right on the money and couldn't agree more! And I'm thrilled live music is giong back toward performers being required to play familiar music that people recognize if they want to make a buck. That is certainly the way it used to be and the way it should be - popular music has suffered greatly since it began placing such a premium on untested & new material.

 

 

Every hit you know has once been a song no one knew about. Nothing new here. You still have to test a song live before you can make it a hit when you are a band.

 

This is where it gets interesting. This part imo has changed since the free music revolution. Bands used to make some money with CDs sold to their small fanbase, which then they could use to tour/promote and to record better songs, until one day they would get lucky and signed.

 

It did make a difference when you could sell 300-400 or even 1000 CDs with a release back in the day. Fans had more respect for you because they bought the product directly, physically. Now I feel there is less attachments to artists and bands, maybe because there are too many of them and they are too easily available.

[richardmac]

NAIL HIT DIRECTLY ON HEAD, Poker99.

 

When was, say, 20 years old and a poor broke-ass college student living in the dorms, I...

 

Uh, OK, I just had a flashback and it was in some ways the best time of my entire life. I lived in a co-ed dorm. Oh. My. GOD. But let me try to focus back on my point...

 

I would walk down to the local record store and plunk down my 8 bucks for the latest Peter Gabriel record (I think it was "So", a great record.) But I was there to buy THAT record. There might have been a bunch of other records there that I would have liked to own, but seriously... no broke ass college student could afford to buy all the music he "wanted." So you really had to be choosy.

 

If I were a broke ass college student today, the thought of "buying" a new CD would not occur to me, and I'd own ALL the music I ever wanted, for free, because I know how to work a computer.

 

So yeah, the whole idea of buying a local band's CD for $15? Yeah, um... no. Their competition is Dark Side of the Moon and The White Album, both of which you can get for free. We've totally devalued recorded music. You're lucky to give it away at this point.

[MartinC]

Not quite so fast. We still sell cd's at gigs. just not as many, and for not as much. Your not really competing with the white album because the Beatles aren't playing at the party.

People still want a memory of a good time, and if you give it to them, you can still sell a cd here or there. Older crowds of course are more likely to buy. Back in 2005, we did a concert and sold almost 100 at 20.00

I doubt that will ever happen again for us. Today, we still get 10.00

I'm always surprised and delighted when anyone buys one these days.

 

 

 

NAIL HIT DIRECTLY ON HEAD, Poker99. When was, say, 20 years old and a poor broke-ass college student living in the dorms, I... Uh, OK, I just had a flashback and it was in some ways the best time of my entire life. I lived in a co-ed dorm. Oh. My. GOD. But let me try to focus back on my point... I would walk down to the local record store and plunk down my 8 bucks for the latest Peter Gabriel record (I think it was "So", a great record.) But I was there to buy THAT record. There might have been a bunch of other records there that I would have liked to own, but seriously... no broke ass college student could afford to buy all the music he "wanted." So you really had to be choosy. If I were a broke ass college student today, the thought of "buying" a new CD would not occur to me, and I'd own ALL the music I ever wanted, for free, because I know how to work a computer. So yeah, the whole idea of buying a local band's CD for $15? Yeah, um... no. Their competition is Dark Side of the Moon and The White Album, both of which you can get for free. We've totally devalued recorded music. You're lucky to give it away at this point.

 

[richardmac]

I'm not saying no one ever buys CD's. I still sell some at gigs too, but it's once in a while. As you said, it's surprising. But in numbers that low, it's borderline irrelevant.

[sventvkg]

Richard. I have a new record out. Cut down to 8 tracks, 29 minutes. I'm here to tell you, the CD is dead and really the only reason to put out an album is for promotion for your brand. Or if you can get sync, or airplay $$..Period.

[richardmac]

Richard. I have a new record out. Cut down to 8 tracks, 29 minutes. I'm here to tell you, the CD is dead and really the only reason to put out an album is for promotion for your brand. Or if you can get sync, or airplay $$..Period.

 

Yup.

 

Actually, there's another reason - vanity. I'm going to do a fourth CD even though I'm not trying to promote my brand, make money, get airplay, etc, simply because I like to write music and I want a public record of it. I'll probably have like 50 of them made.

[sventvkg]

Yup. Actually, there's another reason - vanity. I'm going to do a fourth CD even though I'm not trying to promote my brand, make money, get airplay, etc, simply because I like to write music and I want a public record of it. I'll probably have like 50 of them made.

 

Yea, right on! I'll just get them made as needed to give others around Nashville and when I start playing a lot of artist shows, I'll get them too because they do sell.

 

I'm on my way home from Alaska now where I did 6 shows in 8 days. I sold 40 CD's so that's not too bad...The format IS dead but if you are songwriter you should have them because it is still the de facto medium to pass your work around. Such is the way it goes I guess....