Muddy Waters!

[RAM007]

I'm having a real problem with the vocals on my recordings. I do everything on my PC. I use Sonar 3, Acid Pro 4 and Sound Forge 5.0 , and of course the instruments sound great! But my vocals always sound Muddy! When I apply Graphic EQ to try and boost the highs, it just causes all of the hiss to be amplified. I need a real solution. What hardware do I need to give my vocals the clariety and dynamics they need to pass for a quality CD production? I'm not rich, I need the bare minimum in a mic and whatever other hardware I need to make quality vocals.

[mick8569]

wats ur current set up? mic, pre, recording room, mic placement? wat style of singing? rough budget?

 

if u give a bit more info ull get better and more specific answers, sorry that doesnt help.

[RAM007]

No real budget to speak of.

 

Just a bed room.

 

No mic to speak of.

 

No hardware other than my PC

 

No where for any real mic placement.

 

I think maybe I should just do my vocals in a real studio.

[Jotown]

Or you could get a decent vocal mic and a better soundcard/audio device. Something with decent converters. If you are recording into a soundblaster type card with a cheap mic you probably won't get any better result than you already have.

[Kiwiburger]

I think getting a DI jack surgically inserted in your throat would be the best solution in those circumstances.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by RAM007 No real budget to speak of. No mic to speak of.

 

I think you probably have a mic. What kind is it. You can do wonders with a cheap stage dynamic (crap ball mic, 58, etc.).

 

You say it's muddy, increase the distance between you mic and mouth. That distance is your best low end (muddiness) eq. Listen while you change the distance. Too far and you might sound thin, too close and you might get too muddy.

 

From thin to flabby. Somewhere in between is your spot.

[RAM007]

Yep! I am using a cheap Sound Blaster sound card. I once had an MAudio 4 in & 4 out, but traded it for some system RAM. I wish I still had it. It was a stupid thing to do. I think I'll get another one of those and one of those crappy Ball 58 mics, and see what happens. Thanks for the advice. I once had a mic pre-amp, but I didn't really notice any difference in quality so I stopped using it.

 

So then, you're saying it's more about mic placement than anything else. I'll keep that in mind.

 

Thanks for all of the great advice!

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally posted by RAM007 Yep! I am using a cheap Sound Blaster sound card. I once had an MAudio 4 in & 4 out, but traded it for some system RAM. I wish I still had it. It was a stupid thing to do. I think I'll get another one of those and one of those crappy Ball 58 mics, and see what happens. Thanks for the advice. I once had a mic pre-amp, but I didn't really notice any difference in quality so I stopped using it. So then, you're saying it's more about mic placement than anything else. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for all of the great advice!

 

 

Hey Ram,

 

It's not only about placement, but that's the place to start. I would imagine you'll find the greatest return by investing in time experimenting with distance, yeah.

 

Regarding the "crappy Ball 58 mic". In my original post I wasn't calling a 58 a crappy ball mic. I meant if you have 58 or EVEN a crappy stage ball mic you can make it work. 58's are great. Cool... have fun.

 

If you really don't have a mic yet, you might consider the AT 2020 for $99. It's a condenser, condensors being more of a standard for studio lead vocal. A 58 will work though, just play around with it...

[wishfulsinful909]

Yeah man, don't diss on the SM 58, mofo!

 

You'll be surprised what you can get out of it. It's not THE stage standard mic for nothing.

 

If you're using a "{censored}ty soundcard" like a Soundblaster, I would recommend plugging the mic into some kind of mixer that has preamp and then plugging the mixer into the soundcard (I used to run one of the Behringer mini 6 channel mixers, and run a RCA to 1/8th inch cable into the "line in" jack of the Soundblaster). Having that buffer between the mic and the card and being able to tweak the sound of the mic BEFORE you hit the record button will work wonders.

[RAM007]

Well, I must have misunderstood the mic thing, I thought he said cray ball 58, I see my mistake. I think I'll go with the other one for $99.

 

Thanks a gain for the advice!

[UstadKhanAli]

Does the vocal sound muddy by itself?

 

Or does it sound muddy only with the music?

 

If it's the former, then try working on your mic technique. And if that doesn't work, maybe your signal chain (mic, soundcard, whatever) are actually muddy.

 

If it's the latter, try a little EQ. Not just on the vocals, boosting the high end, but using subtractive EQ to carve away at the mids and upper mids of your individual music tracks to try and get a nice "trough" for your vocals to sit nicely in...that's one way to do it. And perhaps most importantly of all, try some good arrangements. Arrange the music to fit your voice. Pull down those keyboards, guitars, and other midrange instruments. Does the voice suddenly sound a whole lot better? If so, consider revoicing some of those chords or using different sounds so it accentuates the voice instead of crowding it out.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by RAM007 What hardware do I need to give my vocals the clariety and dynamics they need to pass for a quality CD production? I'm not rich, I need the bare minimum in a mic and whatever other hardware I need to make quality vocals.

 

What passes for quality CD productions...well, sometimes things that are not so good pass for this.

 

I first answered this in a "what you can do with what you've got now" kind of way. And I'd recommend that you try these sorts of things first. And if those don't work, then try the gear second. But it's good to save money, learn a little, and try and squeeze the best sound out of what you've got before pulling out the credit card.

 

But if after this, you still want something that is reasonably good, there's a number of options that don't completely suck.

 

First, a condenser mic. What's your budget? I'll bet the AT2020 for $99 is a pretty darn good choice. That should be nice and clear. They make good stuff for the money. It's not a 251, but I'm sure it'll do the trick.

 

Second, a decent mic preamp. Get a used Mackie or Allen & Heath. While they're not considered the Holy Grail of mic preamps, they're pretty damn good, especially when you consider what you could get just five or ten years ago for the same amount of change. I'll bet M-Audio makes pretty good stuff for the money as well. The good quality mic preamp makes such a huge difference I can't even begin to tell you. It's almost as important as the mic itself. Almost.

 

Third, converters. The soundcards that come with most computers totally blow. And that's being polite. Again, there's a few budget options that'll definitely sound better. I'm sure one of them is M-Audio. They seem to make good stuff that's cheap and doesn't sound bad. I'm kinda guessing because I've never owned any of their stuff, but that's what all the reviews and users seem to keep indicating.

 

A thing about converters, too: I have nice microphones and preamps. But when I switched from analog to Digi001 (digital) and used the Digi001 converters, the sound absolutely sucked. It was muffled, lifeless, flat, and blah. I bought a high-quality converter. It was like someone lifted a thick layer of gauze off the speakers. Suddenly, the tracks were full of life, sounded like what I was putting into them, were fuller, thicker, and had more depth and presence. The lows were much more accurate, and the sounds had depth and texture. And that was just on an individual track!! Put those individual tracks together when mixing, and it makes such a huuuuuuuge difference. Really.

 

So I don't know how much this adds up to. You'll have to figure that out, do a little research. Or maybe others will chime in here. But ultimately, it always pays to figure things out, test them out for yourself, that kind of thing. But with a $99 mic and maybe an M-Audio mic preamp/converter combo, what are you looking at...maybe $300 or $400? And maybe you can find something that's even cheaper than that.

 

But if you think that's a lot of money, just think about how much things cost just five or ten years ago and you'll be much happier. I'm not even sure that I could have gotten a decent large diaphragm condenser mic for under $500 ten years ago (I paid $550 for my Rode NT2 in 1996, and that was considered a steal back then. Now, you have a whole gaggle of LDC mics for under $200 to choose from!!!!!

[RAM007]

That's the problem exactly. my vocals just sound muffled and muddy. What converter for vocals do you suggest? And is this something that you run the mic thru or is this a track converter for post production?

[Jotown]

There are many mic pre-amp A/D converter audio devices (sound cards) on the market. But just like anything else; you get what you pay for.

[RAM007]

So you're saying that I need a good sound card with a pre-amp A/D converter built in it?

[Will Chen]

 

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli ...I bought a high-quality converter. It was like someone lifted a thick layer of gauze off the speakers. Suddenly, the tracks were full of life, sounded like what I was putting into them, were fuller, thicker, and had more depth and presence. The lows were much more accurate, and the sounds had depth and texture. And that was just on an individual track!! Put those individual tracks together when mixing, and it makes such a huuuuuuuge difference. Really.

 

 

I have to +1 to converters, even though mine are probably more like "mid-quality" converters (bundled with my digital mixer). I used to run an old Fostex 4-Track as a mixer into a Soundblaster Live line in. Once I upgraded to a Tascam 1082, my sound quality greatly increased and I would assume the higher you went up the food chain the better sound you would get. However, it was really a situation of me not knowing what I was missing because I felt I was getting decent results with my poor man's setup. It wasn't radio quality, but that's not really what I was after. I just wanted to document my ideas with the best quality I could out of my gear. I see posts on this board with setups much nicer than mine who have never really spent the time to learn much regarding recording techniques...

 

Please do not take offense, your questions lead me to believe you are in the early stages of learning about recording and you would probably best be served by purchasing a barebones firewire/USB interface (Tascam or M-Audio come to mind), a

[RAM007]

Thanks!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by RAM007 That's the problem exactly. my vocals just sound muffled and muddy. What converter for vocals do you suggest? And is this something that you run the mic thru or is this a track converter for post production?

 

 

You can run everything through this...the mic preamp (such as the M-Audio I suggested or other ones by Mackie or whatever) and other instruments.