Using inserts as sends

[Majoria]

I'm trying to handle my shortage of mic pres with a simpler solution. I record with a 003R but still of course need pres for channels 5-8 and I've been using a few Mackie mixers that I have and taking one channel and panning it hard left and the other hard right. But after reading a few threads I got an idea and it appears to work. Instead of using the main outs to go from the mixers to the 003R I used the inserts and a TS cable. I still have the gain knob that I can use for control and this way I can just use the one mixer. Any problems that I am not considering or is this a safe alternative until I can get a better pre?

[GZsound]

 

I'm trying to handle my shortage of mic pres with a simpler solution. I record with a 003R but still of course need pres for channels 5-8 and I've been using a few Mackie mixers that I have and taking one channel and panning it hard left and the other hard right. But after reading a few threads I got an idea and it appears to work. Instead of using the main outs to go from the mixers to the 003R I used the inserts and a TS cable. I still have the gain knob that I can use for control and this way I can just use the one mixer. Any problems that I am not considering or is this a safe alternative until I can get a better pre?

 

 

I have done a ton of live recordings by using the channel inserts for individual track feeds.. Works fine.

 

And getting a "better" mic pre may be a non issue. Frequently the mic, the room etc. all are more important than buying a botique mic preamp..

[Paully]

 

Instead of using the main outs to go from the mixers to the 003R I used the inserts and a TS cable. I still have the gain knob that I can use for control and this way I can just use the one mixer. Any problems that I am not considering or is this a safe alternative until I can get a better pre?

 

 

Really, the only potential problems are monitoring and wiring. I'm sure you're aware that the tip and ring of the y-connector must be shorted together in order for the signal to continue through the Mackie (if that's where you're monitoring from). Otherwise you'll loose that audio source within the board. You may have to (should) make your own y-connectors, as it's next to impossible to pull the plastic casing in order to short the legs together. The connector's jack and wire run that feed the pre must be TS only, not TRS.

 

Best, Paul

[blue2blue]

Actually just insert your (TS) direct out cable to the first click -- signal flow won't be interrupted to the output bus (should you be monitoring through that). You'll still get your clean direct out with your level out strictly controlled by the trim pot (and without the potential degradation of EQ or channel output stage).

 

It's how Mackie's are designed to be used. (And many other boards have a similar feature.)

[Paully]

 

Actually just insert your (TS) direct out cable to the first click -- It's how Mackie's are designed to be used.

 

 

I didn't know that. AAR, I always toss in the adapter diagram just in case.

 

Best, Paul

[Majoria]

I didn't know which of the three sections of the TRS did what on the insert but now I do. So if the sleeve is the send then that is all I should be contacting. I'm monitoring from the 003R and not the Mackie, I'm only using the mixer for it's pres. So if I'm not using the mixer to monitor, should I still just use a TS to the first click? Does the damage from fully inserting a TS only occur when monitoring or will it happen regardless of where I monitor (as I suspect)?

[Paully]

 

So if the sleeve is the send then that is all I should be contacting?

 

 

Nope. The sleeve of the unbalanced, single conductor wire is the shield.. or ground, and should be connected at both ends of whatever wire-type you're using. The 'tip' is the hot signal from the channel, both at the insert jack and for the wire when 1/2 inserted. A regular shielded guitar wire is fine. When 1/2 inserted, the plug's tip will be touching the jack's tip. Grounding will be automatic, and will take care of itself. Play with it a little. You really can't hurt anything. IOW, plug a regular guitar wire half-way in, and the other end fully into the 003.

 

Best, Paul

[Majoria]

Thanks, I was reading the schematic wrong (read the tip as "S" for some reason). But that still doesn't make sense. The schematic shows the jack on the mixer as the tip being the "to effect", or the output of that mixer channel. The ring is "from effect" or return to the mixer, or input. The sleeve is the ground thus shouldn't be contacting either if using both to and from. So if I plugged the TS cable in all the way, the ring would be shorted to the sleeve but leave the tip free to do the output that I desire. Since I have no return, how is there harm by shorting the ring to the sleeve? If I plug the TS cable in only half way, I'm using the tip to transfer the signal on the ring circuit which is the mixer input thus nothing to transfer down the cable to the 003, right?

 

Keep in mind this is mixer insert channel going to the 003 channel input, I'm not talking about instrument directly to the 003.

 

I'm missing something here, perhaps a few things. Please explain.

[stage7]

 

I'm trying to handle my shortage of mic pres with a simpler solution. I record with a 003R but still of course need pres for channels 5-8 and I've been using a few Mackie mixers that I have and taking one channel and panning it hard left and the other hard right. But after reading a few threads I got an idea and it appears to work. Instead of using the main outs to go from the mixers to the 003R I used the inserts and a TS cable. I still have the gain knob that I can use for control and this way I can just use the one mixer. Any problems that I am not considering or is this a safe alternative until I can get a better pre?

 

 

What kind of mackie is it? Pretty much every mackie I've ever used has sub outs on it, and I'd think routing each channel to a sub out would be easier if the mixer has 4 sub outs.

[Majoria]

1402 VLZ. No subs. I have a 1604 but it's for live use.

[Paully]

Let me try this again. The diagram shows the insert jack in it's normal state, with nothing plugged in. It's called "normally closed".

 

Board signal goes to the jack and contacts the tip. It is also normalled (follow the arrows) to the ring side, where it returns back to the board.. completing the internal path. With nothing plugged in, that the way they (used to) operate .

 

When you insert a TRS plug, the normals (arrow contacts) are broken, so the internal flow is broken. Signal is then free to flow only from the tip and through the wire. If you were returning the signal after processing, it would flow back thru the ring side to the jack ring and on into the board. The thing to remember is that inserting a plug breaks the signal flow at the jack and re-directs it.

 

According to Blue, the Mackie is different, and can have a TR plug 1/2 inserted (so it touches the ring of the jack without breaking the internal signal flow). In this case, signal flows to the jack, normals to the ring, and touches the tip of the wire's TR plug. That allows you to steal the signal and still be able to monitor from the board. Inserting it all the way will just break the normal, and decouple the board's ability to monitor. When a TR plug is fully inserted, the board becomes decoupled and the ring touches the plug's shield instead of a ring, shorting the return side. I think you knew that from your response.

 

IE, you can insert either half way or fully, depending on whether or not you want to monitor thru the board. Your suggestion should work, but try it both ways.

 

Best, Paul

[Paully]

I don't believe it . I just took a look at the manual, and the whole procedure is explained there (of course not as well as I did ).

 

http://www.mackie.com/pdf/vlzproseries_hu.pdf

 

Best, Paul

[Zooey]

 

Does the damage from fully inserting a TS only occur when monitoring or will it happen regardless of where I monitor (as I suspect)?

 

 

That's a good question, but ultimately does not matter. I would push it in halfway to access the direct channel output, even if you do not need to monitor from the board.

 

I don't know if it harms anything to push the cable all the way into the input if you're not monitoring from the board...but since Mackie designed the board to access the direct output at the first click, why not just do that?

[Majoria]

I got out the manual for my 1402 and the schematic is different than yours.

 

 

Yours has a connection from the tip circuit to the ring circuit but with a diode at each end so that nothing enters that jumper, thus I'd interpret that as a normally open circuit since that jumper would never be used and thus never a connection between the tip and ring through it. The manual shows a seperate jumper for each circuit to the other with one diode per jumper. That would allow for what you explain and make it a normally closed circuit.

 

Perhaps your schematic should look like this:

 

 

Thanks again for the explanation. I finally got it.

[Paully]

First, for a true insert jack, the diagram from your manual does not show all of the actual connecting lugs on this type of jack. The diagram I provided is correct for that use, and is what is typically used in a board that has dedicated inserts AND dedicated direct outs. I attached a scan from the Switchcraft catalog that shows what this jack looks like. I don't think my diagram needs any revision.

 

 

The Mackie that you have was apparently designed for live use, not recording. The 1/2 insert feature is a nice, although inexpensive way of allowing what a direct out does, without actually including another jack. Don't confuse what I laid out with what's in the Mackie.

 

I'd suggest that you study circuit components as they appear in a schematic. There are no diodes in my diagram. I used arrows to represent closed contacts and signal flow direction. A diode is a different symbol. Also take a look at the Switchcraft site www.switchcraft.com . They have a link to the circuits of virtually every jack in their product line. Very helpful when you need to ID a specific jack circuit type, or just to see how these things operate.

 

Best, Paul

[IsildursBane]

 

1402 VLZ. No subs. I have a 1604 but it's for live use.

 

 

It's got aux sends, no?

 

-Dan.