**** you, pay me

[Poker99]

I think the right term I should have used is : Overpopulated. lol

[eventArgs]

 

daddymack brought up something to think about put yourself there if you want - but besides the law part, just be real real careful there cause you are upping the ante by a lot --- not getting your amps out or getting a louisville slugger across the drummer's knees can make doing the next job a lot harder. It's like running out a climb -- judgment call, but just be pretty aware of the risks if you make a bad call on it

 

Yeah, most clubs in my town are owned and run by the same people - and they are seriously dodgy. If you go around breaking their stuff (or threatening to) they'll make sure nobody wants to try that same stunt again.

[humancertainty]

A band I, uh, heard about...without hearing their name...got denied their guarantee while out on tour. I'm sure it was completely unconnected, but they had to call a plumber the next day to replace four urinals that had been kicked off the wall and two toilets that had been smashed.

I have not heard how they are about honoring guarantees these days.

[BlueStrat]

A band I, uh, heard about...without hearing their name...got denied their guarantee while out on tour. I'm sure it was completely unconnected, but they had to call a plumber the next day to replace four urinals that had been kicked off the wall and two toilets that had been smashed. I have not heard how they are about honoring guarantees these days.

 

Don't you now that in 2010, they're supposed to be doing it for the love of the craft, nobody owns music, nobody is owed anything, music belongs to the people, anyone expecting to be paid needs a reality check bla bla bla bla bla...facepalm:

 

 

[richardmac]

 

When you have an industry that's been taken over by hobbyists and amateurs who have no knowledge of how the business works, you end up with 'free' being the only available marketing strategy at their disposal, and when everyone is doing it, it becomes a self perpetuating and self defeating cycle. It's hard to compete with free.

 

 

I think the reason that the industry is being taken over by the amateurs is because the pros have absolutely no idea how to operate their business any more (with few exceptions.) When your product goes digital and the cost of copying your product might as well be zero, you're screwed. You need to find a new way to make money. Just like travel agents.

 

But unlike travel agents, musicians can also perform, and sell upscale "atom based" products like CD Box sets, vinyl (gag for me, but lots of people like them,) and "merch." The big problem is that small and medium acts won't make much a living trying this strategy unless they perform like mad, all the time. Small time artists don't do too well selling "merch."

 

People keep waiting for the new business model to emerge. It could be that what we have now is what we have. In China, they've totally given up on the idea of preventing piracy. It's rampant. So musicians basically get paid to perform and to get licensing deals and that type of thing. Widespread piracy has not killed music in China.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not sticking up for the idea. I still BUY my music and I'm happy to do so. I like supporting artists. The problem is that the actual cost of reproducing music is now pretty much zero, anyone under 30 intuitively knows it, and any "scarcity" we have with digital files is artificial and everyone knows THAT, too. Free may be inevitable.

 

So I think it has more to do with the fact that people won't pay for something that costs zero to copy than the fact that the amateurs have taken over. But I do agree that the more people start doing it the faster the idea will grow.

 

Best advice is probably to sell as much music as you can right now because in the future you'll either be giving it away or sitting on it. And definitely do NOT move to China to sell more music.

[restart]

 

You are not the only one, but for each guy who isn't willing to put out "demo" quality stuff there are ten guys who ARE willing. Is this good or bad? I dunno. I think the reason that the industry is being taken over by the amateurs is because the pros have absolutely no idea how to operate their business any more (with few exceptions.) When your product goes digital and the cost of copying your product might as well be zero, you're screwed. You need to find a new way to make money. Just like travel agents. But unlike travel agents, musicians can also perform, and sell upscale "atom based" products like CD Box sets, vinyl (gag for me, but lots of people like them,) and "merch." The big problem is that small and medium acts won't make much a living trying this strategy unless they perform like mad, all the time. Small time artists don't do too well selling "merch." People keep waiting for the new business model to emerge. It could be that what we have now is what we have. In China, they've totally given up on the idea of preventing piracy. It's rampant. So musicians basically get paid to perform and to get licensing deals and that type of thing. Widespread piracy has not killed music in China. Don't get me wrong - I'm not sticking up for the idea. I still BUY my music and I'm happy to do so. I like supporting artists. The problem is that the actual cost of reproducing music is now pretty much zero, anyone under 30 intuitively knows it, and any "scarcity" we have with digital files is artificial and everyone knows THAT, too. Free may be inevitable. So I think it has more to do with the fact that people won't pay for something that costs zero to copy than the fact that the amateurs have taken over. But I do agree that the more people start doing it the faster the idea will grow. Best advice is probably to sell as much music as you can right now because in the future you'll either be giving it away or sitting on it. And definitely do NOT move to China to sell more music.

 

 

When I think of what's happened in this industry, Billy Joel's "Allentown" crosses my mind with the music business standing in for the steel mills.

[Grubgoat]

 

Yeah, most clubs in my town are owned and run by the same people - and they are seriously dodgy. If you go around breaking their stuff (or threatening to) they'll make sure nobody wants to try that same stunt again.

 

 

Don't worry, its not something I'd just go do, and it would definitely have to be an "I'm starving" situation, or a LOT of money. But I'm still gonna file that away. Just the idea of finding some leverage to force some kind of bargain, I had honestly never thought of it. Its not my nature. The simplicity of his post/story kind of popped a lightbulb in my head, thats all.

 

And also, from what I can tell, most EVERY damned bar is owned by the drug man. I want none of that.

[sabriel9v]

You are not the only one, but for each guy who isn't willing to put out "demo" quality stuff there are ten guys who ARE willing. Is this good or bad? I dunno. I think the reason that the industry is being taken over by the amateurs is because the pros have absolutely no idea how to operate their business any more (with few exceptions.) When your product goes digital and the cost of copying your product might as well be zero, you're screwed. You need to find a new way to make money. Just like travel agents. But unlike travel agents, musicians can also perform, and sell upscale "atom based" products like CD Box sets, vinyl (gag for me, but lots of people like them,) and "merch." The big problem is that small and medium acts won't make much a living trying this strategy unless they perform like mad, all the time. Small time artists don't do too well selling "merch." People keep waiting for the new business model to emerge. It could be that what we have now is what we have. In China, they've totally given up on the idea of preventing piracy. It's rampant. So musicians basically get paid to perform and to get licensing deals and that type of thing. Widespread piracy has not killed music in China. Don't get me wrong - I'm not sticking up for the idea. I still BUY my music and I'm happy to do so. I like supporting artists. The problem is that the actual cost of reproducing music is now pretty much zero, anyone under 30 intuitively knows it, and any "scarcity" we have with digital files is artificial and everyone knows THAT, too. Free may be inevitable. So I think it has more to do with the fact that people won't pay for something that costs zero to copy than the fact that the amateurs have taken over. But I do agree that the more people start doing it the faster the idea will grow. Best advice is probably to sell as much music as you can right now because in the future you'll either be giving it away or sitting on it. And definitely do NOT move to China to sell more music.

 

I wouldn't say the pros don't know what they're doing, maybe in terms of a standout business and marketing plan they don't, but most successful studio engineers, producers, roadies and other people who are the lifeblood of the industry understand how to do their particular job very well. Either way, I think I get what you're talking about

 

Digital is something that the major labels continue to fight on all fronts and I feel they need to relax such offensive measures. It's one thing to boycott a bit torrent site that has all your artists discography on there, but another to boycott a site like Pandora which lets you stream an artist's single. It's not all the enemy.

 

Some of the guys I really feel for are the boutique amp and effects manufacturers. You can design a really badass amp and then someone can go online, steal your schematic and release a ripoff clone of it. Musicians may not get the exact same tone, but if its close enough and $500 cheaper why not. What if that happened to Jim Marshall, Vox or Fender when they were releasing their benchmark products in the early years?

[justcrash]

At the end of the day, I really think people in my age group (I'm 36) may be some of the last musicians to know what it was like to have people PAY to see your gig, PAY for your material, PAY for your merch, and appreciate it all, to have actual FANS and not internet heroes regurgitating whatever clever meme they saw recently. The artist, as a whole, is looked down upon if they expect to be paid for their profession. Society just SUCKS now, for a LOT of reasons. Blue Strat is 100% right.

[sabriel9v]

At the end of the day, I really think people in my age group (I'm 36) may be some of the last musicians to know what it was like to have people PAY to see your gig, PAY for your material, PAY for your merch, and appreciate it all, to have actual FANS and not internet heroes regurgitating whatever clever meme they saw recently. The artist, as a whole, is looked down upon if they expect to be paid for their profession. Society just SUCKS now, for a LOT of reasons. Blue Strat is 100% right.

 

First off, this statement is not true because I'm 24 and I can recall of a time when people paid for gigs, records, merch, signed up to be a part of artist fan clubs and in general dipped into their pockets to support their musical heroes.

 

But meh, a lot of these young kids

[Blackwatch]

As for the OP's point, great sentiment but I think it's too little too late. The record companies, with all their political muscle and money can't get anything done what luck do a country full of disorganized musicians have?

 

And as far as home made recordings go, I'm in the middle of that right now. I'm OK at recording but I'm not a professional and I don't have pro recording gear and it's frustrating the hell out of me because I can't make it sound like I want it. And studio time is pretty far down on the list as I'm unemployed with no real prospects in my type of work on the horizon. I'm hoping that when the other musicians add their parts it will "fill in" But right now I'm just pissed off.....

[CountRobula]

Hey, Black, if that myspace is your music, it's pretty cool. "The Moon & Mexico" is pretty bad ass.

 

So, would it be impossible for a band at a "pro" level of playing to make enough cash to survive? A band that plays like one of the big bands out there today, if one started playing somewhere, would they be stuck in a few little bars and never really go anywhere because of this internet amateur-overrun "free" industry?

[sabriel9v]

Hey, Black, if that myspace is your music, it's pretty cool. "The Moon & Mexico" is pretty bad ass. So, would it be impossible for a band at a "pro" level of playing to make enough cash to survive? A band that plays like one of the big bands out there today, if one started playing somewhere, would they be stuck in a few little bars and never really go anywhere because of this internet amateur-overrun "free" industry?

 

Hell yeah! If you know the right people. Look at MGMT or any of those guys who started out playing at "DIY" art galleries and house venues based out of Brooklyn. I know Dame Dash has an art space he showcases indie acts. I think it's awesome. An opportunity to play at a millionaire's loft/art space and having them promote the event. {censored} yeah, count me in

[humancertainty]

Don't you now that in 2010, they're supposed to be doing it for the love of the craft, nobody owns music, nobody is owed anything, music belongs to the people, anyone expecting to be paid needs a reality check bla bla bla bla bla...facepalm:

 

Oh, I never would have done that. I know that the band was sooooo lucky to even have the venue provide a place to play. I'm not one of those crooks that expects gas money and whatnot.

As a musician, as I have so much {censored}ing money that I'm just going to play for free and give everyone two CDs and a shirt, just for coming. Hell, I'll even pay the venue for the privilege of playing there.

[Blackwatch]

 

Hey, Black, if that myspace is your music, it's pretty cool. "The Moon & Mexico" is pretty bad ass.

 

 

Wow......Thank you so very much. My Myspace page just hit 10,000 hits...A lot of good it's done....

 

That song is about the time a very beautiful, and very young, woman and her boyfriend were doing cocaine right in front of the 7 eleven right by where I live. And then she proceeded to invite me to join them in a three way.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which I could not attend as I had to pick up my daughter from school. Talk about reality {censored}ing up a great fantasy...

 

And no, I didn't have to do the guy.......

[Jesse G]

I'm guessing the author's band didn't get big.

 

Adapt to current market trends or get left behind. Period.

[Dancebass]

That song is about the time a very beautiful, and very young, woman and her boyfriend were doing cocaine right in front of the 7 eleven right by where I live. And then she proceeded to invite me to join them in a three way....... Which I could not attend as I had to pick up my daughter from school.

 

{censored}

 

 

j/k

[Mcfontio]

 

I'm guessing the author's band didn't get big. Adapt to current market trends or get left behind. Period.

 

 

Oh, you mean lose money as a carrier? No problem, things are looking up for sure.

[TieDyedDevil]

"Free" is the same old pig with a new coat of lipstick.

 

It's kind of amusing when you write it out:

 

- Clubs don't give away drinks or food.

- Studios don't give away recording sessions.

- The oil companies don't give away gasoline.

- The printer doesn't give away those nice show posters and CD inserts.

- Office Depot isn't handing out jewel cases and spindles of CD-Rs.

- Music retailers don't give away the tools of the trade.

 

But once you, as a mere "creative person", have paid all of these other *business people* in order to follow your muse and attempt to find an audience, then you get... what? Right: advice to *give away* your productive output because somehow all of your largesse may someday mystically trickle down to enrich *you*.

 

Voodoo economics is alive and well. Or as P.T. Barnum used to say: "There's a sucker born every minute."

[Dancebass]

 

I'm guessing the author's band didn't get big. Adapt to current market trends or get left behind. Period.

 

 

I thought about what you said so I just downsized my drummer and outsourced our keyboard department to the Philippines.

[daddymack]

outsourced our keyboard department to the Philippines.

salamat po!

put my inlaws to work!

[Dancebass]

salamat po! put my inlaws to work!

 

Currently we can only afford to pay them in Milk-Duds and Universal Healthcare.

[daddymack]

what, no rice?

no Jolly Bee?

no corned beef?

[CountRobula]

Hell yeah! If you know the right people. Look at MGMT or any of those guys who started out playing at "DIY" art galleries and house venues based out of Brooklyn. I know Dame Dash has an art space he showcases indie acts. I think it's awesome. An opportunity to play at a millionaire's loft/art space and having them promote the event. {censored} yeah, count me in

 

But what if their parents stop sending them trust fund money? I need a secure manager.

 

And you said "Hell yeah! If you know the right people." but I asked if it was impossible for a competent band to earn a living. I'm now confused. lol

[richardmac]

 

"Free" is the same old pig with a new coat of lipstick. It's kind of amusing when you write it out: - Clubs don't give away drinks or food. - Studios don't give away recording sessions. - The oil companies don't give away gasoline. - The printer doesn't give away those nice show posters and CD inserts. - Office Depot isn't handing out jewel cases and spindles of CD-Rs. - Music retailers don't give away the tools of the trade.

 

 

Every example you just posted is "atom" based. Meaning they're all physical by nature. If you pour a beer for someone at a club, you can't pour that same beer for someone else. If you sell a blank CD-R to someone, you can't then resell it to someone else. And so on.

 

By comparison, if I put an mp3 file on the Internet, it doesn't matter if 1 person or a million people download it, it's still available and it's still going to be there. There's no scarcity. The "Google" generation, or Generation Free, or whatever you want to call it, understand this. Practically everything on the web is free, at least in terms of content. They know that you're charging them money for a copy of something that costs practically nothing to make (the copy, that is.) This explains why many of today's kids would not rip off a t-shirt from a store, but they will file share. To them, one is a crime and the other is copying data.

 

When I've talked to teenagers about the idea that without any money, musicians will stop making music, they just shake their heads and laugh. And the sad thing is... they're right. Musicians made music before it could even BE recorded and they'll continue to make it after people are no longer willing to pay $18.99 retail for ten songs.

 

We've basically opened the gates and now everyone in the world can distribute their music and the cost of music duplication is zero. We can bitch about "these kids today" but the real issue is caused by what I just said.

 

If you want to make a living doing this stuff, you'd better do a lot of gigs. And the way today to get a lot of gigs is to get a lot of fans. And the way to get a lot of fans is to give your music away. Your other option is to write jingles for local car commercials.