Members Pleasant Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 Originally posted by Brittanylips There's so much stuff out there in the "all-in-one department," there's really no need to cobble stuff together. You can get just what you want! And I'm sure that for many people, the 400f is just what they want. But if you're not happy with its converters (if that's your opinion), you CAN get something else for the price of a 400f + outboard D/A, if that's what floats your boat.-PL&B The gauntlet has been thrown! 400f + Lucid D/A: $1300 Please list comparable interfaces for that price that have the following features:- firewire- 4 rockin' preamps- 8 analog ins- 8 analog outs- great A/D- great D/A- All metal housing- internal power supply- 64 bit DSP Good luck! - P:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ironbuddha Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 Pleasant, I have to agree with brittanylips in that one shouldn't typically buy a piece of gear only substitute an A/D D/A unit rather than looking at it from a scalability flexibility standpoint and should appreciate the merits of each individual product. Having said that, I think trying to list solutions in this manner is neither productive nor relevant to this thread and it's main focus of discussin the 400F. You could come up with any number of mic-pre + A/D D/A solutions to fit the bill here. Presonus Mic Pres w/ Audiofire 12 RME Fireface MOTU 896HD I could go on... but as I said... I'd much prefer to stay on track and discussing the merits of the 400F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 12, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 > Sounds like you really "get" the Pro Review concept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ticohans Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 iron, if I could throw in my 2 cents here, I think what brittanylips is getting at is that you aren't going to see better quality than the 400F with the Lucid D/A at $1300. The counter list you give is good, but I'd take the mackie + lucid combo over any of those easy. I believe it's cheaper than all, and the general consensus of the internet message boards seems to be that the pres are MUCH better in the mackie. Hopefully the external D/A isn't even neccessary. Personally, I doubt it will be to these ears. Maybe somewhere down the road, but not now. I guess at the end of the day it's all about how well your mixes translate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pleasant Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 I plan to get the 400f, period. It's got the features I need. And it's expandable (e.g., outboard D/A). I'm sure I'll be very happy with the conversion in the unit.I was just giving BrittanyLips a hard time -- because she earned it OK, back to reading the review. - P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ironbuddha Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 I felt that I should clarify what I was trying to say... I didn't mean to come across as being snarky or abrasive.I think it's fair to say that everyone that's been contributing has been providing good insight on the product and what's in it's arena. Once people start deviating and talking about rigs in combination it becomes a free for all about which rigs sound better and I'm sure we call all agree that sound is a very subjective thing.I was just trying to emphasize the fact that most people don't decide to buy a piece of gear because only 1 aspect of it is appealing and instead to look at the product as a whole. That's not to say that we shouldn't use them in combination with other gear we like if we've got that available to us. What I love about this pro review is that we're focused on a product and the those involved in the thread have only drawn in reasonable comparisons and contrasts as opposed to a pissing contest of "i own this and it rocks, ergo that is an inferior product"My point was to illustrate that there are many options that meet those requirements once we get over the $1300 price mark all with their own merits. I don't think it would be a stretch to say we'd all have a crapload of gear to our hearts delight if money was no object, but that's not the case for this dabbler/aspiring artist.Nonetheless, at least we've kept ourselves entertained until the next segment of the review. So big up to Pleasant and Brittanylips - no hard feelings. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hacheka Posted December 12, 2005 Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 Hello, My suggestion for DSP effects is... what about a software emulation of the Onyx EQ? It would be great!!! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 12, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 12, 2005 > +1! > Yes, indeed. I've deliberately held off on the next "segment" because as threads often do, this has taken on a life of its own and I feel important subjects are being discussed. I really like the way this review has progressed; it's also giving me a better idea of what to cover in the rest of the review, based on what interests people here. Props to Dan too for the comments, I really think getting the manufacturer involved adds a very useful dimension...as long as companies continue to send us engineers/product managers and not marketing types. He also included enough info about standalone operation that I'm not sure I can add much to that, so thanks for doing my job for me, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spectacular g Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton I'm still not hearing brittle, BTW. I'm beginning to think that if the 400F had been the only interface in the world, then new ones were introduced, people would consider the new ones "muffled." The 400F does have presence, but more and more, I think the "single coil/humbucker" analogy is what's going on here. Well... I sure hope we are talking about P-90's anyway. Seriously though, you gotta know I am not trying to fan flames here. But... I do feel that the singlecoil/humbucker analogy is a bit of a red flag for me. I mean really, there is a huge difference there and to me it says that these dacs truly do have a unique and identifiable sound, and this really is a bit of a concern for me. Craig you have used the word "presence" and to me, between that and the "singlecoil" analogy it could be taken to mean "bright" Which of course does not mean "grainy"!!! So I gotta ask... Craig would you say these dacs are "bright"? Would you think that listening to them for a normal mix session would be any more "fatiguing" than normal? Just to be clear my main concern is not the sound of the dacs for playback, I have a nice monitoring chain with a dac/sound that I love. I am more concerned about the sound of the analog out's on the way too outboard comps and such during a mix. I just feel that for me, and I suspect others here that at this point there is enough concern over the sound of the dacs on this box to warrant a definitive analysis/answer. Soo... I propose a test which I feel is fair and easy enough for you to do. Simply set up a mix in your normal daw that you are "comfortable" with. Then simply do a few rounds of a/b comparison with your normal/"comfortable" monitoring dac and the dac on the 400f. Then please report the differences whatever they may be. I truly hope that we can then finally put this topic to bed, and move on to more of this great review of this very interesting/exciting box. I hope you all understand where I am coming from here. I really want to get a couple of these. The upside is huge to me, really a perfect feature set. But I gotta know... ya' know. next time,jfg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 13, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 > I absolutely do understand, and no, doesn't seem to me like you're fanning any flames. The frustration at this end is, of course, that I can't just say to all of you "Well here, just listen." You can attach files to these posts, but they're limited to about 100k. With a 16-bit/44.1kHz WAV file, that means under a second of audio. Not good enough. Perhaps for future reviews HC could allocate some server space for hi-fi audio examples. > Well, that's actually what I've done, moving back and forth between the 400F, the Creamware DA, and the Panasonic DA7 DA. If you listen long enough to the 400F, then it sounds normal, and the others sound a little muffled. If you listen to the others long enough, then they sound normal and the 400F sounds a little bright. Mind you, we're dealing with very small differences here, and subjectively speaking, I prefer clean/sparkly sounds as opposed to "warm" sounds. I always disliked the Miller effect in tubes (internal capacitance that affects highs, and which is present in solid-state devices to some extent), and was pleased when Aphex figured out a way to defeat it. In fact, that would be a more accurate analogy (tube with or without Miller effect) than the humbucker/single coil one, although I felt the latter would be more intuitively understandable. The one thing I should emphasize is that the brightness has more to do with definition and transparency. It's like the frequency response "goes up to 11." To me, "bad" brightness is synonymous with "harshness." I do not hear harshness out of the 400F, nor is it fatiguing. In fact, I have no problems listening to it for hours at a time. In short, one of the variables in all this is that the 400F delivers a high end quality for which I have a predilection. Those of you who really value a "warm" sound might not like the 400F's high end characteristics. Those who'd rather hear a dry guitar through a Class A solid state amp than a tube amp with a transformer will probably love the 400F. Come to think of it, if you think the 400F is "brittle," it wouldn't surprise me if you could get the sound you want by feeding the output through an audio transformer. I also feel that the 400F doesn't influence a mix. In other words, the balance of high to low frequencies is still there; I don't find myself turning down the treble with it. I just feel like I can hear "through" the treble range more, like it somehow has a little more high end "space." Whew...do I qualify to write wine reviews now? "Sharp, with a mild nose, recalling essences of fruit and oak but with a deep, almost comical, finish." I know, I know...don't quit my day job. Does any of this help to convey what I'm hearing? Remember, we're dealing with subtleties here, so the language I use has to be quite nuanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton "Sharp, with a mild nose, recalling essences of fruit and oak but with a deep, almost comical, finish." This really clears up a lot for me! Is Mackie going to use this in their next batch of ads? ~~~~I've been sorta skim-reading this thread and just wanted to add that so far I really love these interactive, in-depth, and ongoing reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitwizz Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 > Well, "For me" the analogy is cool, I know it can be a hazy way of wording to us, but what is a better alternative?? Its pretty much, "I like them", or "I dont like them", which leaves absolutely nothing, not even a vague comparison, like the pup idea. If you ask Craig to A/B the same mix, using different dac's, and he was to say, "why, yes, they are glassy and harsh", that wouldnt mean the same to you or me, maybe, right? My point is, there is nothing wrong at all with drawing a difficult listening comparison from a tone opinion, that most of us have been familiar with for years, which is the pup & amp design thing... Its not a measured science, but it may help to convey in "words" (words dont have sound) a closer understanding of a product.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spectacular g Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Anderton Does any of this help to convey what I'm hearing? Remember, we're dealing with subtleties here, so the language I use has to be quite nuanced. Yes it helps alot. Thanks!!! next time,jfg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KernelG Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 It helped me. My 400F will be here tomorrow, possibly replacing a MOTU Traveler on a dual G5/Logic 7 rig. (SSS reader since the AOL days. Thanks Craig!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ticohans Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Hey Kernel, let us know your thoughts on how the 400F compares to the Traveler! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sutoman Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Am I crazy, or is it too much to ask that adapters be included with the Onyx series so their product can be used out of the box immediately after purchase? I have been waiting for a week to receive an adapter for my Firewire 800 port in order to use my Onyx. The local computer superstore workers look at me like I am nuts when I ask if they carry these adapters in stock. Meanwhile, I just sit and stare at my new decoration, dreaming of the day I can acutally begin using it as I await the $5 part that I had to pay $6 shipping to get. FRUSTRATING!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DemoKing Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Quote "Next, I loaded a really complex project in Sonar: Lots of MIDI and digital audio, Reason 3.0 rewired into it with a big Reason Drum Refill loaded, and East-West Colossus loaded as a virtual instrument. 256 samples didn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eightyeightkeys Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 But... I do feel that the singlecoil/humbucker analogy is a bit of a red flag for me. I mean really, there is a huge difference there and to me it says that these dacs truly do have a unique and identifiable sound, and this really is a bit of a concern for me. Craig you have used the word "presence" and to me, between that and the "singlecoil" analogy it could be taken to mean "bright" This is where words might not be quite enough and leaves the reader often wondering where the product stands. As a keyboard player, the "single coil/humbucker" analogy doesn't do anything for me. How do I know that it's better than my Tango 24 convertors ? Is it worth the upgrade ? A reference to older technology or a reference to top of the line products and products in it's class much like automobile reviews might set us straight. A comparison to what has come before and the SOTA as it is now. Something like : The sonics of the 400F is clearly a step-up from my DA-7 digital mixer. (or maybe I heard no difference)orThe sonics of the 400F is much cleaner/clearer and with more defined bttom than my older XYZ convertors. Definitely a step-up.orClearly, the Lavry Blue convertors is in a league of it's own. The 400F sounds positively clinical in comparison. I don't really know. I'm thinking of what might be helpful to me. I can't possibly try too many convertors and especially at one time which would be the most revealing. (My retailer probably wouldn't go for that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 13, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 The problem is...define "better." Please go up 8 posts, and you'll see me describing the sound in a way other than using the pickup analogy. But as you're a keyboard player, here's a good analogy for you: Remember how FM synths sounded "crispier/brighter" than analog synths? Same sort of deal, but not to such an extreme by any means. The sonics of the 400F is clearly a step-up from my DA-7 digital mixer. (or maybe I heard no difference)>> I already addressed this, actually They sound different, but not by much. Some might prefer the sound of one, some the sound of the other. Now let me say something that will get everyone REALLY riled up: It doesn't matter. I really think the problem is that people want me to be able to say that X is better than Y. But at this point in technology, the best I can say is that X is different when compared to Y. It wasn't always this way. When the first 20-bit converters came out, there was an obvious, distinct improvement compared to 16-bit converters. Yes, they sounded different, but when I heard my first 20-bit system (PARIS) compared to my 16-bit Pro Tools setup, there was no comparison. Period. I bet even a tone deaf grandmother would have picked PARIS as sounding better. But I think we're getting into "speaker territory" in this thread. Put five high-end pairs of speakers next to each other, and they'll all sound slightly different. Now put five high-end audiophiles in the room, and listen them argue about which is better. Fact is we have different preferences. I've taken great pains to point out I like crisp, bright, clean, transparent sounds. At least I'm consistent: Back in 1968, I was using solid-state keyboard amps for guitar because guitar amps weren't defined enough for me. Others prefer a more rounded, warm sound. Sure, I could say the 400F converters are "better" than the ones in the DA7. But are they? I can guarantee some people would prefer the sound of the DA7, and some, the sound of the 400F. I'm not trying to cop out here. It's like me trying to convince you that your favorite color is blue because I like blue, even though your favorite color is red. Ultimately, this speaks to the limitations of the printed word, and why Lynn Fuston has done his set of A/B comparison CDs. If there's one thing those CDs have proven, it's that there is no universal consensus on what sounds "best." No wonder there are so many models and so many brands -- each has its fans. Now let's zoom out even further. I've already said that I don't believe the 400F's sound causes me to alter my mixes. It's not like a situation where a speaker is deficient in the low end, so you turn up the bass. I adjust the mix for the same amount of high end regardless of whether I listen to the 400F, the Creamware DA, or the DA7. It's just that the resulting sound is subtly different. Bottom line: Put great music through the 400F, and you'll be hearing great music My personal opinion is that if the feature set floats your boat, that trumps minor differences in sound. The only time it becomes a factor is if you have two units with similar feature sets and can't decide between them. At that point, it's worth setting up a rigorous test to decide if one has sonic qualities you prefer over the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members freen-bean Posted December 14, 2005 Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 We would love some feedback from you guys if this MCU mode would be useful to you. Basically, you could take the 400F and the MCU and mix a small show at a club, as long as the interface and channel count were acceptable to your needs. It would be very useful, indeed. Especially if it meant being able to create super-low latency headphone/monitor mixes while tracking. Presumably this feature would also be included on the 1200F? That's where it would really come in handy. Two questions related to this: 1. Would these interfaces be able to function in this MCU controlled mixer mode while simultaneously handling DAW I/O? 2. While controlling the interface (400F or 1200F) in this mixer mode, would the MCU be unavailable to control whatever DAW was being used? Or could it somehow switch modes and control both the interface mixer function and the DAW? Bank switching with some banks controlling the DAW and some controlling the interface's mixer functions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 The Console software has five mixer pages (one for each output pair) and a settings page. We Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DemoKing Posted December 14, 2005 Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 Please see my post about ASIO / Sonar latency above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jameswood33 Posted December 14, 2005 Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 This is a great forum and review!!! I am considering this product, but I am also building a PC computer to go along with it. What kind of firewire does the 400F use? Is it 1394a (up to 400Mbps) or 1394b (up to 800Mbps?) Does this really matter? Also, can anyone suggest a particular firewire PCI card that works well with this product? The motherboard I am thinking about getting is the ASUS P4P800-E, which has a VIA 1394a controller. I need not say more about VIA and pro audio.... Thank you for any and all help. (keep those "suck" nobs turned down to -11) -Wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 I believe it's around 11 ms. I'll check next time the music computer is up and doing its thing. There appears to be no difference in latency when using 32 or 64 bits. > You can switch to 64 bit to mix, but it doesn't seem there's any penalty to leaving it on all the time. It's for calculational purposes; I don't believe files are recorded in 64-bit resolution. > I believe the Sonitus plugs have been converted to 64-bit operation. From what I understand (I'm not using the 64-bit version of the software, although I use the 64-bit audio engine with the 32-bit version), the "BitBridge" feature in Sonar allows the 64-bit version to host 32-bit VST plug-ins. And now, back to Mackie... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted December 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted December 14, 2005 > My assumption is that the "400" in the product name is a clue. The manual doesn't say anything about this, and I think it would if this was a 1394b device. Dan? Probably not, I don't think Mackie is asking the 400F to do anything extraordinary with respect to bandwidth and 1394a. > Well this isn't a recommendation, but I'm using a 3-port no-name FireWire card I bought at Circuit City back in 2000 for $25. I'm pretty sure it uses the TI chip set. I would think that if the 400F can work with that, it can work with anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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