PRO REVIEW - MACKIE ONYX 400F - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS

[Anderton]

Actually, I don't have a ribbon mic to test them with. But I have used ribbon mics quite a bit in the past, and I certainly don't see any technical reason why they wouldn't be a good match.

[composer]

I have read about the brittle ness as several other forums including Mackie....however these posters at Mackie are new users, so this leaves me suspect. However, at gearslutz, these users are long time members.

A few questions after reading all this in this thread...
If one where to find brittleness in DA, how would you rectify this problem using the 400F, in otherwords what would be a typical set up? 400F for AD and then run out of??? to some other DA? How is this done.

Second: Does the global phantom power affect the HIGH Z input?

Third, the lack of phase switch, is this imperitive?

thank you

[ironbuddha]

Hi Craig,

Thanks so much for doing this review, I've been seriously contemplating the 400F as my sound interface since it's one of the few that has 4 mic pres before I have to scale to another unit.

One of the subjects however, that I haven't seen too much about is how this unit holds up in standalone mode. I'm asking this since Mackie currently has a promo going for the 1220 with the firewire interface free which actually comes in at less cost/input and from what I can tell is essentially the same mic pres, but more versatile for a live situation.

I've played with the motu units, and they have the ability to play around with the standalone mix with a menu type GUI on their main lcd. From what I understand with the Mackie you set it and it remembers the last settings on power up, but how much control is there just with the gain knobs?

Mr. Steingberg, maybe you could comment as well. Other than the sampling freq. and digital sync options, how much would I be losing.

Also, I read on another forum that there are plans for the 400f to be controlled as a standalone mixer with the MCU. Any roadmap as to how this functionality will be implemented?

Thanks for all the info once again - Brilliant review Craig.

Cheers.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Anderton What I don

[Pleasant]

Composer:

You can buy a separate D/A and connect it to the SPDIF 'out' on the 400f. Then you simply route the output of your DAW through SPDIF 'out' on the 400f, and the new D/A will pickup the signal.

The Lucid D/A runs about $500. Combine that with the 400f and you have one heck of a good conversion/interface with pres for only $1200.

Now, we all might find that the D/A is just fine on the 400f. When I get mine, I'm going to run a couple of A/D/A loops to see if the sonic integrity of the tracks is compromised.

I'm betting it will be fine.

- P

[composer]

ok, but if you don't have a mixer, how would this be done? ?

Also, I shop online AMS, could you give me some links and brands as well as the lucid model? The cheapest at AMS is 649.

thanks

[Pleasant]

When you plug the 400f firewire into your computer and start up the DAW, you will have 10 outputs appear in the DAW. Eight of them will be the analog outs on the back of the 400f. The other two will be SPDIF outputs that you will have physically connected between the 400f and the outboard DAC (e.g., Lucid, Apogee).

A word of advice: If you don't understand what I'm talking about then you probably don't need a separate, outboard DAC. Just know that you can add one to the 400f later if you need. I understand the desire to have it great right from the start, but to honest, I'm thinking that, at this point, you probably won't hear a difference between the 400f DAC and a Lucid DAC....I doubt I could either

As far as where to buy outboard DACs.....you're on your own.

- P

[Anderton]

Wow, you guys come up with some great comments. I love doing Pro Reviews!!

 

 

 

 

I consider the standalone mode an important aspect of the 400F and will be covering that in detail. Next up I'll be dealing with the DSP mixer, which is intertwined with the standalone aspects.

 

About the brittleness: I did some preliminary comparisons last night between the 400F sound and that of my DA7, which I've always felt has a "sweet" sound. Comparing the two, the best analogy I can come up with is that the 400F is a single coil, and the DA7, a humbucker. The 400F definitely has a real sparkle in the high end and I can see where some would call it brittle, but I suspect these are the same people who don't really like the sound of a single coil pickup taken direct. In other words, so far my take is that it's a subjective thing. I hear it as being ultra-clear and defined, but I LIKE that kind of sound -- the first time I heard a guitar direct, it was like a revelation. Others might find it too "present." Then again, as has been pointed out, you can stick a different DA on the SPDIF out; or frankly, you might be able to get what you want just by rolling off a little bit of the highs above 15kHz (like we used to do with FM synths, LOL).

 

So initial reaction: Very clean, crispy high end. But "brittle?" That's not the word I'd use.

[Pleasant]

Composer:

Here's the lowest price that I've seen on the Lucid DA9624:

http://www.frontendaudio.com/Lucid_DA9624_24_96_kHz_D_A_Converter_p/2984.htm

- P

[mandoman]

The 1220 would be a good choice if you don't have a mixer already, need something for live use, and don't need spdif IO. I actually need spdif, otherwise would definately have considered the 1220 as an alternative. Maybe the next rev. of the onyx firewire card they will think to include spdif? Are you listening Dan?

I'm familiar with the gearslutz thread and the supposed brittleness of the DA. I'd agree that is probably a subjective thing. I might worry about it if I was to do several DA AD cycles with outboard gear, but most prosumers like me probably won't be doing much of that. I think those considering a two piece setup to address this (ie, an outboard DA) might be better served going to another interface with lightpipe and getting an 800r.

I'm looking forward to reading about the stand-alone feature. You are limited somewhat because you have to set up the dsp matrix in advance on the computer. That may not be a big issue for some.

[guitwizz]

Great review Mr. Craig! I have an 1820m, but I am looking to replace it with the new box next year, and havent found this extensive of a review on, well almost anything! Its neat if the pres are good, but I like the conversion and local control the most about it.

 

Hope you're getting some sleep!!!

[Anderton]

>

 

This is the fourth Pro Review I've done, you might want to check out the links to the other ones...they're pretty deep too! Glad you like the format, it's a gas to write.

 

>

 

Honestly, I'm taken aback by the interest in this unit, I thought it was more of a niche product. There are some great comments here.

 

>

 

Well, actually lack of sleep has been a bit of a problem lately...but tonight, I'm taking a break and having dinner with the owner of Maricam Studio here in Santa Fe. I just finished a cool mastering project with him and it will be nice to kick back for a while...I hear his wife is a gourmet cook

 

Okay, back to work, and back to the review.

[Dan Steinberg]

Hi there everyone, sorry for taking so long to post again, things have been very busy at Mackie HQ lately. I will try to address some of the questions and comments I have seen come up since my last post.

My answers came out a little long winded, but that

[Dan Steinberg]

Next our good friend Ironbuddha asks

[mandoman]

Dan,

Thanks for your comments. One thing I won't knock Mackie on is deadication to their products!

For spdif optical, I already have the afformentioned midiman co2 coax-optical converter, just hate pulling it out, and an extra set of digital io would have been nice to give the unit a more swiss army knife appeal. No biggy though. I really don't need the extra expandability of lightpipe io, and I realize the cost to add it (licensing from Alesis, etc) and don't want to pay for it.

After re-optimizing my powerbook and DP settings and using the 'low' priority setting, I'd say I am pretty happy with the performance of my onyx firewire card in DP. Hope the 400f will perform as good or better.

Good to know I can remove the rack ears. Probably will do this until you guys come out with a perfectly matched 1u shallow rack bag with laptop pocket and accesory pocket(s) with the Mackie logo on it

[imagodei]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg We would love some feedback from you guys if this MCU mode would be useful to you. Basically, you could take the 400F and the MCU and mix a small show at a club, as long as the interface and channel count were acceptable to your needs.

 

 

I really dig this idea. Any way to have a single MCU control multiple 400F's at once?

[spectacular g]

Originally posted by Dan Steinberg It is still a goal to do this, but I can not really say when we expect this to be ready. Up until now it has been more of a priority to have rock solid Mac and PC operation at low buffer sizes, as well as work on multiple box support. Once multiple box support for Windows is done we should have more time to dive back into this. To give a little more detail on what effects we

[ticohans]

Let me chime in here and say that plugins handled by the 400F's DSP processor would be AWESOME, and I really like the idea of a channel strip plugin, similar to what's bundled with the Yamaha 01V/i88x. Also, I would rather see just a couple really high-quality plugs, as opposed to a bunch of mediocre ones. It seems that Mackie has done everything possible to make the 400F a very high-quality unit, despite it's low cost. I would hope to see the same bang-for-your-buck quality with whatever plugs that are bundled with the unit.

I think the ability to pair the 400F with the MCU would be a great way to add functionality. A definite plus in my eyes.

Also, Dan, I am one who is familiar with the Gearslutz "brittle D/A" thread. I want you to know that all the reviews I read are taken with a grain of salt: obviously everything is subjective. That said, you should also know that for whatever negative things the poster in question had to say about the quality of the D/A on the 400F, he rated everything else very highly, with pre's, A/D, and ease-of-use better than the RME FireFace. He suggested purchasing the 400F along with a nicer outboard D/A, saying that combo would without a doubt top the FireFace, and come in at around the same price. That's very high praise, since the FireFace is pretty much the current standard against which all other high-level firewire interfaces are measured. It's all the more remarkable when you consider that you can get two 400F's for the price of a single FireFace!

I would definitely be interested, if you had the time, Dan, in a review of the D/A on the 400F versus the Lucid9624 D/A, since that is exactly the unit I would consider purchasing along with the 400F, if I decide the D/A on the Mackie is not for me.

I hope this post doesn't in any way sound very critical of the 400F. All-in-all, everything that I've read is VERY positive on the unit, and it seems that you have set a new value-standard for firewire interfaces, at the very least. That you have produced an interface that competes if not surpasses the FireFace at half the cost is VERY impressive, and I will be purchasing a 400F soon.

Speaking of which, are there any updates coming out soon, for which I should hold off my purchase?

[clasam]

I agree with my fellow forumers in that I would definitely prefer QUALITY over QUANITY for the DSP effects. Additionally, making the DSP available for both tracking AND mixing is very important.

In addition to their great ideas, I have a few suggestions:

The ultimate effect that I could possibly dream up is the "Make my song NOT suck" plugin.

Okay, all kidding aside, would it at all be realistic to have any modeling simulations (preamps, mics, guitar cabs)?

What about guitar/bass specific effects like flanger, wah, crunch (going DI into the 400f, the instrument signal would be split, and one would remain dry, while the other would be wet)?

In terms of the 'standard' plugs, in addition to the manual controls, I'd appreciate several templates (ie: for compression, have presets for various vocal styles, slap/funk bass vs. upright bass vs. jazz bass, strings, de-esser, soft + hard knee settings, etc).

Well, there's my 5 cents...I'm sure i'll have more thoughts later, but some general ideas to shoot at ya. But overall, I'd rather have 5 top notch effects than 15 mediocre ones.

Thanks,

Jon

[Anderton]

I wouldn't want to see Mackie go in the direction of guitar effects...they're too subjective, and I'd rather see the bandwidth spent on really good dynamics control and EQ...and maybe a reverb.

[Anderton]

Okay, it's Sunday night and all that and I wasn't planning on posting anything, but just had a couple points.

 

1. The MIDI works fine. I've been using it all day with Reason. No surprise, I realize that, but thought I should mention this for the sake of completeness.

 

2. The Onyx 400F does not run hot at all. Very slightly warm, maybe, but it definitely doesn't feel like any component lives are being shortened in the slightest by heat. I don't think it's an issue of the all-metal case dissipating heat; it just seems to be pretty conservative thermal engineering.

 

I'm still not hearing brittle, BTW. I'm beginning to think that if the 400F had been the only interface in the world, then new ones were introduced, people would consider the new ones "muffled." The 400F does have presence, but more and more, I think the "single coil/humbucker" analogy is what's going on here.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by ticohans I think the ability to pair the 400F with the MCU would be a great way to add functionality. A definite plus in my eyes. Also, Dan, I am one who is familiar with the Gearslutz "brittle D/A" thread. I want you to know that all the reviews I read are taken with a grain of salt: obviously everything is subjective. That said, you should also know that for whatever negative things the poster in question had to say about the quality of the D/A on the 400F, he rated everything else very highly, with pre's, A/D, and ease-of-use better than the RME FireFace. He suggested purchasing the 400F along with a nicer outboard D/A, saying that combo would without a doubt top the FireFace, and come in at around the same price. That's very high praise, since the FireFace is pretty much the current standard against which all other high-level firewire interfaces are measured. It's all the more remarkable when you consider that you can get two 400F's for the price of a single FireFace! I would definitely be interested, if you had the time, Dan, in a review of the D/A on the 400F versus the Lucid9624 D/A, since that is exactly the unit I would consider purchasing along with the 400F, if I decide the D/A on the Mackie is not for me.

 

FWIW

[Pleasant]

But to buy a 400f AND a redundant converter if the one in the 400f isn't adequate just doesn

[ironbuddha]

Dan,

Thanks for taking the time to address everyone's comments on this. I think it is really commendable when manufacturer reps can actually offer insightful comments about their own products without having to flame their competitors. It inspires some integrity regarding the business practices of an organization.

I must admit, I really like the idea of the MCU being compatible with the 400f to bypass a computer for small rehearsal + recording or live applications. Like others have indicated, I would like to see the DSP be capable of handling high quality compression, EQ and reverb. I think the domain of various instrument specific effects and emulation be left to those who focus on that specifically.

In my humble opinion, the 400f and onyx mixers already pack a lot of bang for the buck in terms of features, but I'd much rather they concentrate on the quality of the signal going in and channel strip function DSP and do it well.

Personally I'm leaning towards the 400F myself. Seems an incredibly versatile unit, and capable of some field recording with a laptop and as Dan said, DSP and control with the MCU would really complete the picture here and change the landscape of the competition in terms of an integrated control surface and interface in that it would have a much more powerful mixing engine. I hope Mackie does implement a roadmap to this, but regardless the 400f is a very versatile product and there are not many in its class for the price to performance ratio.

But being a technoweenie, I'm not happy until i've researched and exhausted all options, so just to mix things up a bit though, I'm going to throw another curveball. Any idea on how this product compares to the audiofire units from the 400f's co-designers at Echo? The design of the 400f appears to be a direct sibling of the audiofire 8, save only 2 different mic pres and 96khz as opposed to 128kHz. I'd be interested in how these two units compare.

Craig and Dan, as always your comments are welcome. (hope i'm not getting under your skin too much yet).

Cheers.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by Pleasant ...not for the price of the 400f + outboard D/A. Nope, not even close! Does it make sense now?

 

Not to me. As I see it: buy something and be happy with it. I wouldn't buy something knowing that I needed to buy something else to compensate for what I perceived as a flawed component. For me, I like to love my equipment in its entirety!

 

There's so much stuff out there in the "all-in-one department," there's really no need to cobble stuff together. You can get just what you want! And I'm sure that for many people, the 400f is just what they want. But if you're not happy with its converters (if that's your opinion), you CAN get something else for the price of a 400f + outboard D/A, if that's what floats your boat. Alternatively, if you love the 400f and want an external D/A, well then do that! That's what makes horseracing, as they say.

 

-PL&B