Who's got the right to critisize Gibson?

[Jimi Ray Halen]

I would say that a 50+ year track record is more than subjective.

Think about how many great songs were recorded on Gibson & Fender guitars. Most of them. Still are today. There is a reason for that that goes beyond blind brand loyalty.

Can the same be said for the imitators? Their best sellers - the models that keep them in business - are almost direct knock-offs. That is not subjective.

Name one great song that was recorded on a Tokai or an Agile. If that is too subjective then just name one hit song that fits in this category.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen I would say that a 50+ year track record is more than subjective. Think about how many great songs were recorded on Gibson & Fender guitars. Most of them. Still are today. There is a reason for that that goes beyond blind brand loyalty. Can the same be said for the imitators? Their best sellers - the models that keep them in business - are almost direct knock-offs. That is not subjective. Name one great song that was recorded on a Tokai or an Agile. If that is too subjective then just name one hit song that fits in this category.

 

 

im not doubting their popularity.

but that logic tells me you think GM makes the best cars.

 

your subjective logic is fine, i dont mind. but it doesn't tell me that gibson or fender is better than this or that.

[TheDarxide]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Name one great song that was recorded on a Tokai or an Agile. If that is too subjective then just name one hit song that fits in this category.

 

 

Sweet Child O' Mine. The entire album was recorded with a *copy* of a Les Paul.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Again - track record. I drive a Chevy truck that is ready to go over 300K in mileage. So I think GM makes a good product. That's been my experience.

I also had a Toyota Corolla that went past 300K. But it rusted out badly.

No rust at all on my Chevy (SS body).

So which one is better?

But you don't play music on a truck. You haul the equipment with it.

Now if the imitators had come out with their own original designs that had the track record of the LP and Strat and they had been used on a huge percentage of great albums then I would put them in the same league.

Until then............ they are quality imitations of the real thing.

We could go on and on all day. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. I totally respect your opinions and enjoy reading your posts.

TheDarxide - that copy was handmade by Max in CA.
What about Agile or Tokai?
Tokai had a deal with SRV for a brief period so he may have used them on some stuff. I know he used a Hamiltone - which is another handmade replica.

[princeadr]

I am sure that many people have had unpleasant experiences with Gibson as well as other brands. I have played some Gibsons in stores that didn't play that great or sound that great. I have played others that did sound very good and played well too. I think Guitars are very individualistic (with acoustics being more so in that manner). I have owned a Gibson acoustic for over 30 years and it is a wonderful guitar. It has been well taken care of by me and it continues to serve me well. I have had many people play it who love it and wanted to buy it from me (and they are primarily Martin players). One of these Martin players said the best guitar he ever played was a Gibson J-200 in the Gibson store in Nashville (cost over $7,000 I think!). I just recently bought a ES 335. I got it for a very good price (around $1,400) and it was only a month old. It is very nice. I have a 335 clone as well. It is nice but the pickups are not as good and the fretwork is not as good but the finish looks excellent and it has binding on the F holes which the Gibson does not. The 335 is a better guitar. It lists for about 8-9 times more than the clone. Part of that is the mystique of the Gibson name and the fact you are paying for a guitar that will appreciate in value. That is not the case for most clones. I would not have bought the Gibson brand new at the price that most dealers are asking because I can't justify paying that much, but I was able to get a guitar of exceptional quality and an heirloom instrument at a more reasonable price so I took the plunge. I also have an American made Telecaster as well as several other Asian made instruments. Each of my instruments have their purpose but my Gibsons and my Fender are American made instruments that will hold their value and they play great so I guess I can't complain. I regret getting rid of a couple of vintage instruments years ago. There is a "cool" factor for some to having an instrument that says Gibson or Martin or Fender or Rickenbacker or Gretsch because these are the ones who started this whole folk or rock thing in the first place. But it is only good if the intrument is good to begin with. I love my Gibsons and my Fender. They are high quality instruments. I really like many of my other guitars as well but they are not at the level of quality as the Gibsons and the Fender but I didn't pay as much for them either so I can't complain.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Again - track record. I drive a Chevy truck that is ready to go over 300K in mileage. So I think GM makes a good product. That's been my experience. I also had a Toyota Corolla that went past 300K. But it rusted out badly. No rust at all on my Chevy (SS body). So which one is better? But you don't play music on a truck. You haul the equipment with it. Now if the imitators had come out with their own original designs that had the track record of the LP and Strat and they had been used on a huge percentage of great albums then I would put them in the same league. Until then............ they are quality imitations of the real thing. We could go on and on all day. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. I totally respect your opinions and enjoy reading your posts.

 

 

lets be clear here , saying something isnt the best isnt the same as saying something is bad. i have a plymouth voyager thats running on 170k, but im not about to say its the best.

 

if we go into track records you can make a good case for PRS. but i wouldnt try to convince someone that PRS is better or gibson is better.

 

my honest opinion on guitars, is that fender and gibson are where they are because of human nature, not because of the product.

 

all guitars are essentially the same. we agree on that. so then you ask yourself, why is fender and gibson the number one seller, when all guitars are essentially replicas? it cant be because they are better.

 

its simply tradition and nostalgia.

we stick with what we know. same exact thing as with cars. both are facing the same increase in competition, but both still have the unbeatable fanbase of american tradition.

 

it has nothing to do wtih the products being any better or worse.

 

cuz as many times as you can talk to me about a 300k chevy, i can show you 20 more that arent gonna start due to an electrical problem.

 

itd be tough for me to do that with the new imitation jap cars.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

It's funny that you should say that because the second Toyota that I bought had just that - an electrical problem that eventually burned out the entire wiring harness. POS. Never again.

But the car/guitar comparison isn't really a valid one. Different products with different purposes.

Name one famous artist who is known for their tone and show me the Agile. Are you telling me that Eric Johnson plays that old strat simply because of tradition and nostalgia, for example?

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen It's funny that you should say that because the second Toyota that I bought had just that - an electrical problem that eventually burned out the entire wiring harness. POS. Never again. But the car/guitar comparison isn't really a valid one. Different products with different purposes. Name one famous artist who is known for their tone and show me the Agile. Are you telling me that Eric Johnson plays that old strat simply because of tradition and nostalgia, for example?

 

 

yea, thats exactly why eric johnson would play that strat.

 

cars and guitars are the best comparison you can think of. you act like im trying to say a gibson has better handling then a toyota.

im talking about public image.

 

why would you compare agile to a top name fender or gibson? do you see me comparing dillon guitars to PRS?

 

i agree with you, agiles arent as nice. i wouldnt disagree with that ever.

 

so now tell me, how does no famous people playing an agile, tell me that gibson and fender make the best guitars?

 

i dont know about you, but those arent appropriate comparisons.

 

or maybe it is, so then id ask you how many famous people do you see playing hamers and a PRS, or an Anderson or an ibanez?

 

none right? so that means gibson is the best.

[Europa760]

but your most basic point confuses me.

if at best, all other guitars are mostly the same as the original fenders and gibsons, than how can you say one is any better based on tone and quality?

doesnt make sense.

thats saying theyre all the same but one is the best.

you can tell me as muc as you want about your one chevy and your one toyota, but it doesnt help that one basic point(above) make any sense to me.

which is why we call it subjective.

[Europa760]

i dont see how you keep trying to convince me that fender and gibson are better because no one famous plays agiles.

what if i told you Gibson and Fender are the best because no one famous plays carlos robelli guitars?

does that make sense to you? it doesnt fit in my head.

trust me, i always liked gibson the best, but for me personally, it isnt because im getting the best product.

i simply think they look the best. and i put new pick ups or electroincs in my fenders just the same.

stock fender pups are no stellar deal either. gibsons im happy with. i like their pick ups.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Europa760:

or maybe it is, so then id ask you how many famous people do you see playing hamers and a PRS, or an Anderson or an ibanez?

Hamer - Rick Nielsen - Cheap Trick
PRS - Santana (and countless others)
Ibanez - Joe S. & Steve V.
Anderson - you got me there.

You really, truly think that EJ playing a strat has nothing to do with it's tone?

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Europa760: Hamer - Rick Nielsen - Cheap Trick PRS - Santana (and countless others) Ibanez - Joe S. & Steve V. Anderson - you got me there. that was sarcasm, i wasnt challenging to name people who played PRS'. youre proving your argument pointless when you name people who play non fenders and gibsons. i dont like having to explain these things, it takes the fun out of it. You really, truly think that EJ playing a strat has nothing to do with it's tone? of course not, you take my words as saying that fenders sound bad. i ddidnt say they sound bad. they sound good. they all sound good. anyone can make a guitar sound exactly like a fender. but you cant make it look exactly like a fender.

 

[Jimi Ray Halen]

I guess that it comes down to this -
you are talking about perception
and I am talking about reality.

You think that people are so stupid that they buy Gibson and Fender for name value only.

I think people are smarter than that.

Sarcasm is easy and frankly I expected more from you. Maybe that's why I missed it.

Like I said, we have a difference of opinion and that's OK.

But you don't have to get all condescending about it.

Peace.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen I guess that it comes down to this - you are talking about perception and I am talking about reality. You think that people are so stupid that they buy Gibson and Fender for name value only. I think people are smarter than that. Sarcasm is easy and frankly I expected more from you. Maybe that's why I missed it. Like I said, we have a difference of opinion and that's OK. But you don't have to get all condescending about it. Peace.

 

 

i didnt mean to be condescending. i thought it was obvious.

 

why do you think i feel people are stupid for buying fender and gibson?

 

youre getting excited thinking i said a bunch of stuff you already have answers to.

 

but you know full well i never said buying gibson or fender is stupid.

 

you should focus on what i said, and not throw default answers to common arguments at me, especially ones i never discussed.

 

i never said it was wrong to buy fender or gibson.

 

sarcasm is easy. thats why i gave your argument about agiles right back to you. but now you think im condescending. my fault.

[Edward]

Originally posted by TheDarxide Sweet Child O' Mine. The entire album was recorded with a *copy* of a Les Paul.

 

 

And not only that, but IIRC it was a forgery, rather than a copy insofar as it was an exact replica of a gibson down to the Gibson branding....

 

As far as I'm concerned viz the value of being the "original" this hold no weight as an argument as to quality. (As an aside, it always seemed odd to me how the issue of dreadnoughts that aren't Martin's never seems to raise the same heckles...). Anyone is entitled to the view that it is preferable to the original.... and if they want to spend an extra few hundred on buying the gibson because it is the original, it's their money. However, whether the Tokai made in Japan - or for that matter, an official copy, the Epiphone Elite - is as good a guitar is a matter of playability, quality of woods, sound quality, components... NOT who made it. Arguments may be made that on some level the original is more valid because the company developed the design themselves way back, however, when it comes down to it the quality of the instruments themselves is something else again.

 

Come to think of it, being a lefty, the Japanses Tokais are a superior offering for my purposes insofar as they offer *all* the models in all the finishes to order at no extra cost - something which I find not to be the case with the bigboys. With Gibson it's often vague whether they do a lefty in a certain model at all. That, however, is again a separate issue from quality.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

i dont like having to explain these things, it takes the fun out of it.

 

 

Not talking down, huh?

[Edward]

The issue of original designs is an interesting one, yes - a lot like comparing a Samick Greg Bennet model with an Epiphone LP (forgetting, for a minute, that Samick make both of those ). The thing is, though, we can blame those companies ti lwe're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, it's the market that doesn't support variation. Guitars are really only another consumer product in the last instance and what the mass market wants is quality copies of the big names at lower price points. Tokai is a good case in point - they have produced some very high quality guitars in innovative designs of their own - the Talbot - but those have never achieved the big sales of the copies because that is what the market wants. Even Ric, very high quality (and mostly better priced that Gibson) and original instruments have never achieved the mainstream sales that copies will. Guitarists are simply a shockingly conservative bunch.... even in guitar design aside, look at how many folks would refuse to touch a digital amp even if it could be guaranteed they would be unable to tell the differnece from a tube amp in any way..... simply because it's not "the real thing". Part of this conservatism can be put down to heavy marketing of "tradition", also there's the influence of big name players (which is a self-perpetuating thing, as one generation are influenced to play what their heroes did, then they become the next generation, influencing others to play the same thing...). But you can make innovative and original designs til you're blue in the face, and the majority of folks will still bitch about how much better a Strat / LP / "proper shaped headstock" is. This goes way beyond "the right name".

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Again - track record. I drive a Chevy truck that is ready to go over 300K in mileage. So I think GM makes a good product. That's been my experience. I also had a Toyota Corolla that went past 300K. But it rusted out badly. No rust at all on my Chevy (SS body). So which one is better? But you don't play music on a truck. You haul the equipment with it. Now if the imitators had come out with their own original designs that had the track record of the LP and Strat and they had been used on a huge percentage of great albums then I would put them in the same league. Until then............ they are quality imitations of the real thing. We could go on and on all day. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. I totally respect your opinions and enjoy reading your posts. TheDarxide - that copy was handmade by Max in CA. What about Agile or Tokai? Tokai had a deal with SRV for a brief period so he may have used them on some stuff. I know he used a Hamiltone - which is another handmade replica.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen Not talking down, huh?

 

 

im condescending because i expected you to notice me repeating your exact argument to you via naming PRS and Hamer players?

 

that shows me youre not completely sound in your reasoning in the matter. that maybe you need to give it a little more thought.

 

then maybe i am condescending. i wasnt trying to be mean.

 

i was saying those things to keep it light with you, to let you know that im not thinking less of you because i think youre wrong.

 

thats why it was taking the fun out of it, to explain my "jokes".

 

im sure youve seen me be more to the point and much harsher and succinct.

 

im just happily discussing your points with you.

[Edward]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen You think that people are so stupid that they buy Gibson and Fender for name value only. I think people are smarter than that.

 

 

Personally I believe there are a heck of a lot of people who will choose all other things being equal to buy on name alone. If they want to spend the extra, that's their choice, and it's an opinion you're entitled to. Comments that have been made in this thread alone along the lines of 'save up a little more and buy the real thing', and that we see all the time in countless other threads are based on this way of thinking. It might not be the only reason someone wants a Les Paul, but it is often the very reason why someone chooses a Gibson Les Paul and not a Les Paul style guitar. All brand commodities are the same - Fender, Gibson, Harley Davidson.... the power of a brand is very strong.

 

Other folks aren't so concerned with having the "real thing" for themselves, however, how often do we hear talk of "resale value" around the forums - 'buy the gibson because it will hold its value better'. That is true on the whole - because of the power of the brand extending into the used market - but it is not relevant to the quality of the individual guitar (only very indirectly in that there is a perception that Gibsons are a superior quality product - which may or may not be totally true, or a result of clever marketing, but if most of them were lemons word would get around). This is another reason to buy the name, NOT the instrument.

 

There are of course many reasons to buy a Gibson other than the name, but if it comes down for the individual to buying Guitar X or the Gibson, and the only difference is the name, the "Made in USA" mojo (if that does it for you), and the being the original then any difference in price that the individual is prepared to pay for the Gibson is, I would argue, the cost of the name.

 

On another note, I agree that great as it sounds they are - I've never seen one for myself - it would be absurd to put a 200 dollar Agile up against a Gibson. However, copies run the full range, and it would be interesting to see a shoot out between high end copies and the production Gibsons. I'm talking about the Japanese Tokais, of which there are quite a range, the Epi Elitists (official, but still a copy), the Grecos and so on.

 

Another element to the comparisons i would find interesting is in the construction details. I'm no expert, however, i gather MIJ tokais use the traditional long tenon neck join that Gibson don't on their standard models any more, and that this element of the Tokais, historical accuracy aside, is considered to be superior. On the other hand, very few copies use the Gibson spec Nitro. This doesn't bother me, but obviously if you value everything being "right" then that is an important issue. Would be interesting to see an expert break it down and see just exactly what you do get by going Gibson, and what the other manufacturers offer in a quality replica, either cheaper than - and where the corners are cut (including cheaper labour outside the USA) - the Gibby, or where a seemingly higher spec is offered for the same money.

 

Back to the Slash LP forgery.... could it be argued that that was a guitar bought on the name as much as any real Gibson could ever be - if he was happy enough with a copy of a Gibson design, why did he have to "hide" that it was a copy in that way? I do find this one intriguing, not least that as the story gets more wdiely known Gibson don't seem to have done much about it - or is it more a case of any publicity is good publicity....? Also reminds me of the rumours - no idea whether they are true or not, I have no position on them - that Gibson outsourced production of some of the LPs etc that name endorsees play to small scale luthiers.... Much as i love a good consipracy theory, I'd never believe that without clear proof. Would certainly be quite a scoop if a big name brand was ever proven to have done that!

[rockfish]

Do you realize how many times I've been asked why I don't save my money and buy a "real" guitar (Gibson), while I'm playing one of my USA Hamer's ????

It's all about the name.


Are there great Gibsons ??? Of course there are. Are there bad ones ??? Absolutely.

Are there great Hamer's ??? Of course there are. Are there bad ones ??? Well.........maybe. I'm sure there has to be a bad one somewhere.







rockfish

[k4df4l]

What??? Did I enter a time warp and get transported to 2 weeks ago when everyone was bitching back and forth about gibson?

Whew...it's just installment #325,125 of the Brand rant thread.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Concerning Slash and his GnR LP, I read in TQR that Gibson used to outsource their artist guitars to luthiers like Max - before they had their custom shop set up. How many people really knew that it didn't come out of the Gibson factory?

[Jkater]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen You think that people are so stupid that they buy Gibson and Fender for name value only. I think people are smarter than that.

 

 

Without making a harsh judgement and calling anyone "stupid", there is no denying that an aweful lot of people buy a Gibson because it bears the name Gibson. I know a few who would still have bought their Gibson if they had been presented with a much better (non-Gibson) instrument at half the price. They have the cash, They want to look cool on stage (or in the living room), the Gibby is more than good enough, why not?

[NewYorkNewYork]

There's another way to look at this:

You can buy a Les Paul Standard for about 2 grand or a top of the line Hamer for about $1500. (or something close to it)

A couple years later, assuming the guitar's in good condition, you can probably sell the LP for $1500 and the Hamer for $1000.

So, you're paying about $500 net for each guitar, and the Hamer likely gives you better quality, superior customer service, and you have to put up less cash up front.

[princeadr]

Maybe, but if you go further out in time you will find that the Gibson, assuming it is a good one, will command a higher price than what was originally paid for it. I don't think that is the case with Hamer. This is the case with so called classic, vintage instruments. They hold their value over time (by this I would suggest 10 years and longer).