Best power amp for use with amp modeler?

[dimmypage]

 

Not to de-rail the thread, but what kind of Ibby is that on the right? Looks cool as hell. I'm not much into Ibanez guitars but I like that one!

 

 

 

Its an 83 RS 335 and only made for that year. Mine has been stripped down and oiled. The sc pickup in the neck position sounds like a P90 and has very large pole pieces. Its a killer little guitar, thanks for the compliment:thu:

[HRM]

 

Its an 83 RS 335 and only made for that year. Mine has been stripped down and oiled. The sc pickup in the neck position sounds like a P90 and has very large pole pieces. Its a killer little guitar, thanks for the compliment:thu:

 

 

I wonder if they're around on E-Bay? Seriously, I like that a LOT.

[dimmypage]

 

I wonder if they're around on E-Bay? Seriously, I like that a LOT.

 

You can still find them on Ebay every once and a while. They usually go for around $200 or higher if theyre in xclnt shape. From the factory they only came in white or black.

[dimmypage]

 

I wonder if they're around on E-Bay? Seriously, I like that a LOT.

 

 

Theres a couple of other guys on the forum that have them as well.

[tjmoto]

I'll check out the Mosvalve. I've also found the Tech 21 power engine interesting but so far no one has mentioned this as a viable option. Maybe because it's only 60watts and you'd need a wall of them to make a dent. Hey Dimmypage. Do you play out in Portland? I work in Beaverton and ocasionally get out to hear live acts. Thought it would be cool to hear your set up live.

[dimmypage]

 

I'll check out the Mosvalve. I've also found the Tech 21 power engine interesting but so far no one has mentioned this as a viable option. Maybe because it's only 60watts and you'd need a wall of them to make a dent. Hey Dimmypage. Do you play out in Portland? I work in Beaverton and ocasionally get out to hear live acts. Thought it would be cool to hear your set up live.

 

 

 

The tech 21 is good stuff:thu:

 

Ha, I live in Beaverton and havent played in a band for 6 yrs because I moved to DC for 4 yrs. My band played at Feelgoods,the Underdround and Eddie Rickenbachers at the Hillsboro airport. I am thinking of getting back out there but I kinda got burnt out on finding good/nice singers.

BTW,The other guitar player in the band used a Soldano HR 50 and I never had any problems keeping up in volume.

[tjmoto]

 

The tech 21 is good stuff:thu: Ha, I live in Beaverton and havent played in a band for 6 yrs because I moved to DC for 4 yrs. My band played at Feelgoods,the Underdround and Eddie Rickenbachers at the Hillsboro airport. I am thinking of getting back out there but I kinda got burnt out on finding good/nice singers. BTW,The other guitar player in the band used a Soldano HR 50 and I never had any problems keeping up in volume.

 

 

I may have to take a Tech 21 home from GC for a 30 day trial...I usually end up keeping the stuff anyway! Dr. Feelgoods is one of my fav. watering holes. If you find a good singer and get going again, PM me. I'll check it out. My son just found a singer for his "battle of the bands" HS thing and I asked if he was anygood. My son says, "Doesn't matter. The worse they are the louder I play!" Ha. The apple does not fall far from the tree!!

[dimmypage]

I may have to take a Tech 21 home from GC for a 30 day trial...I usually end up keeping the stuff anyway! Dr. Feelgoods is one of my fav. watering holes. If you find a good singer and get going again, PM me. I'll check it out. My son just found a singer for his "battle of the bands" HS thing and I asked if he was anygood. My son says, "Doesn't matter. The worse they are the louder I play!" Ha. The apple does not fall far from the tree!!

 

That was the policy with my last band:thu:

 

If you get a chance Check out Billy Hagen hes usually playing somewhere around. Great player, plays a mean slide with a full drink glass.I played about 50 gigs with him and he always stold the show with that:mad:

[Nik]

 

I use an Atomic 212 and it is the best thing you can get for a modeller.

 

 

Depends on the modeller.

 

We are talkiing Vox Tonelab here, which has all the valve warmth it needs, thanks very much.

[Nik]

Full range isn't a good thing for guitar, necessarily. The only times I've heard an electric guitar through tweeters or horns (not counting PA reinforcement), it sounded like dogshit. YMMV. I'm not a fan of modelers at all, really, but that is exactly what the Atomic is specifically designed for. I'm sure they wouldn't have forgotten to put a tweeter in, if it was necessary to reproduce the modeler's sounds. Why would you want to hear a model of a plexi, for example, through tweeters, or a full range cab, though? It's not as though the orignal amps (or ANY guitar amps, for that matter) are "full range".

 

Depends on whether they really know what they are doing, or whether they just want to sell you something with valves in it.

 

A Plexi full bore produces a lot of speaker break up, which produces harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce. So to model it correctly, you need to model harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce.

[Nik]

 

to be brief and to simplify, fundamental frequencies of guitar is from 80hz to 1300hz. this is not full range. but way above these frequencies is the higher harmonics of the fundamental frequencies. these basically define 'tone' in part. think traditional model guitar -> amp -> mic -> PA mic hears what we hear. and by the time it reaches our ears, the harmonics of the guitar have went through the amp and the amp adds its own harmonics and cab does different things to each frequencies. guitar cabs are capable of making high frequency noises. just in not faithful fashion. basically modeller tries to replace 'amp -> mic' and it is ideal to pass it off to PA. if you're running it to atomic, it looks like guitar -> modeller -> atomic equals guitar -> 'amp -> mic' -> atomic. just imagine that you hooked up to your amp to, say, blackface twin or whatever you're modelling. then mic'ed it up. then instead of sending it to a mixer like you usually would after you mic up an amp, you sent it to atomic instead. this can sound good. you just won't be hearing what the guys who made the modeller wanted you to hear. close but not as close as PA will get you. atomic is closer to PA than a regular guitar rig. the whole point of atomic is to make something resembling a PA as closely as possible in a guitar cab form factor. truth.

 

 

You were doing fine up to that last point. The Atomic amps have a valve power amp and no tweeter, and so are not at all close to a clean, full range PA system.

 

Tech21 Power Engine active cabs are much closer to a PA in a guitar cabinet.

[hardtdc]

I tend to agree about using PA speakers for full range sound. You could always look at turning the cab modeling off of your custom patches if running live through a guitar cab though. It will mean that you might have to create new patch settings to find "your tone" just for this application.

 

Another scenario to look at in the amp is to find a good tube power amp, preferably a stereo one if you want to fully take advantage of certain effects (chorus, etc) within the modeling. This will also mean that you need a stereo speaker set-up to get the most out of it or you'll have to bridge the power amp defeating the purpose. I've found that using a tube power amp doesn't color the sound much at all but still gives the "tube presence" that guitarists want and takes the generic sterility out of the modeling sound. The only thing this set-up won't solve is offering a compact solution because you'll be hauling two-three separate pieces of equipment.

[tjmoto]

That was the policy with my last band:thu: If you get a chance Check out Billy Hagen hes usually playing somewhere around. Great player, plays a mean slide with a full drink glass.I played about 50 gigs with him and he always stold the show with that:mad:

 

Will do. What's his style/genre?

[cratz2]

Not to de-rail the thread, but what kind of Ibby is that on the right? Looks cool as hell. I'm not much into Ibanez guitars but I like that one!

 

Yeah, I love how that one looks. I'd trade my RS1000 for it.

 

[Electric Catfish]

Depends on whether they really know what they are doing, or whether they just want to sell you something with valves in it. A Plexi full bore produces a lot of speaker break up, which produces harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce. So to model it correctly, you need to model harmonics that a 12" speaker cannot normally reproduce.

 

A plexi was just an arbitrary example.

 

That said, to say a plexi "produces a lot of speaker break up" is kind of problematic. It depends on the effeciency of the speaker. "Plexi" refers to the head, and doesn't imply anything about what speakers are being used, whatsoever.

 

Aside from that, who the hell would run a plexi head through a full range pa cabinet, as opposed to 12's? if you "model harmonics that a 12" speaker can't produce", then run them through a cabinet that CAN produce them, the results probably won't be pleasant. There's a reason people don't play their Superleads through SP-2's*.

 

*Another arbitrary example. I really don't give a shit about SP-2 specs.

[Brewski]

I

pump mine into the retrn line of my Peavey Ultra Plus to get the Power Tube Tone - it tends to be a bit low end heavy and I have to dial back the bass on all my model settings.

[joeemy]

A friend has a processor to a older Marshall Valvesate 8080 power amp and then to a old Marshall Cabinet. It sounds fantastic with his Ibanez Artist

[zoinghun]

A plexi was just an arbitrary example. That said, to say a plexi "produces a lot of speaker break up" is kind of problematic. It depends on the effeciency of the speaker. "Plexi" refers to the head, and doesn't imply anything about what speakers are being used, whatsoever. Aside from that, who the hell would run a plexi head through a full range pa cabinet, as opposed to 12's? if you "model harmonics that a 12" speaker can't produce", then run them through a cabinet that CAN produce them, the results probably won't be pleasant. There's a reason people don't play their Superleads through SP-2's*. *Another arbitrary example. I really don't give a shit about SP-2 specs.

 

you're completely misunderstanding. it's not even funny.

 

no one is saying anything but modellers should be run through full range.

 

this is what i'm saying:

 

guitar -> preamp -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA

 

equals

 

guitar -> modeller -> PA

 

also equals

 

guitar -> modeller with cab sim turned off -> power amp -> guitar cab -> mic -> PA

 

but does not equal

 

guitar -> modeller -> anything but full range (which is apparently what everyone else in this forum is doing.)

 

 

nobody brought up the picture 'guitar -> some chain without either cab simulation or an actual guitar cab -> PA' (except you) because that's not what people are interested in.

 

guitar cabs can produce these harmonics. but in a very particular way. modellers models these harmonics in ways that full range can reproduce them. modellers model these harmonics ways that guitar cabs CANNOT produce them. an exception to this is line 6 stuff that has a special setting for sending it through a guitar cab. (it has to go through some EQ. and it's still not ideal, as guitar cab is not very controlled or precise.)

 

this is just the way modellers were meant to be used. but guitarists are not sound techs and they keep using modellers in ways that they were not intended to be used. this is why i can't trust user reviews of modellers. "it sounds shitty" well no shit. you're using it wrong.

 

if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.

[Electric Catfish]

if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.

 

Old timer. That's funny. Much more of that, and I'll take your skateboard away.

 

Fluffy marketing aside, a modeler, such as a pod, is a digital effects processor. The old ones had "cab simulation", too. I'm all for folks using modelers direct into the PA, though, long as it's somebody else's band.

 

What do I know, though? I'm just another one of those idiots who uses a tube amp to get a tube amp sound.

[zoinghun]

Old timer. That's funny. Much more of that, and I'll take your skateboard away. Fluffy marketing aside, a modeler, such as a pod, is a digital effects processor. The old ones had "cab simulation", too. I'm all for folks using modelers direct into the PA, though, long as it's somebody else's band. What do I know, though? I'm just another one of those idiots who uses a tube amp to get a tube amp sound.

 

if you're going 100% traditional, that's cool with me. not saying your tube amp stops working because modellers are here.

 

but what i'm wondering about is, how do you resolve the fact that the guys who made the modellers say "our products are meant to be used with full-range set up. if you are not, you are doing it wrong and you will get less than what you paid for" and you saying "running a modeller through full range is stupid. i will run mine through a tube power amp and a guitar cab."

 

i mean it's just how they MADE it. how they were programmed, how they were tested, how they were intended. for best possible operation. just read a manual, please. i know it's a thick manual and you don't use a modeller. that's fine. don't use a modeller and stick to other things. just don't pretend like you know what you're talking about when it comes to MODELLERS which you don't use and which you are clueless about.

 

i haven't said shit about running your old tube preamp through a PA without a guitar cab. that's stupid. don't do it. we have no disagreements when there are no modellers in the picture. it's just that you are clueless about any set up involving a modeller.

 

i'm not going to continue feeding a troll. btw i am a beginner guitar player but i happen to be a student of electrical engineering and a qualified sound guy. but you don't have to take it on my authority. i strongly suggest you read the manual or talk to the manufacturer for suggested usage. just ask them which set up will be better. modeller through tube amp and 4x12 or a modeller through a pair of mackie srm450.

 

i'm not suggesting that Electric Catfish do so. because he doesn't use a modeller so he doesn't need to know how to use one. and that's perfectly okay. probably he gets great sounds out of real tube amps, no doubt. but anyone else who is actually considering using a modeller should learn what the correct way to use it is.

[scottop1972]

 

please read what i said earlier and what Nik said. to be absolutely {censored}ing clear, modellers need clean headroom (as in no distortion what-so-ever) and full range faithful reproduction of the input signal. a legit PA set up will have these: headroom - like i mentioned, srm450 and eon 15 g2 will have 300 watts going into low frequency driver ALONE. they will have 100 watts going into the freakin' tweeter. full range - no way in hell you can get full range without a tweeter. atomic doesn't have a tweeter. excuse my lack of modesty. you can say atomic is very good for modellers. i'll believe you. don't use the word best. because it's not the best.

 

 

while i agree modellers do need clean headroom.... i have tried what you suggest multiple times with my boss gt8. there are thread after thread about this topic at bossgtcentral.com

 

my experience with doing just wahat you are saying let me in on this..... there is a hiss you cant get rid of when using a PA speaker set up. I then hooked up to a 4x12 stereo cab with my mosvalve 1160 and the hiss was gone. i cant explain it but that is what happened.

 

so. my set up is now.... digitech 2120 into mosvalve 1160 into 1x12 detuned cab with legend modelling 12's in stereo.... = pure awesome tone.

 

please note the legend modelling 12's are 150 watt power handling more flat response speaker.

[inkblot]

So is there any cab/power amp that's convenient for a home practice/small gig type setup? I'm interested in getting a modeller for the versatility and DI recording capabilities but I don't want to spend a ton of money to be able to practice with it without headphones and sound good. the Tech21 Power Engine looks pretty cool, and Tech21 claims it recreates the modeller's tone.

[guitarbilly74]

Try the Tech 21 power engine.. it's very good for that type of application.

[zoinghun]

 

my experience with doing just wahat you are saying let me in on this..... there is a hiss you cant get rid of when using a PA speaker set up. I then hooked up to a 4x12 stereo cab with my mosvalve 1160 and the hiss was gone. i cant explain it but that is what happened.

 

 

would majorly depend on the quality of the PA. better PA (specifically, better power amp and balanced cables) would have solved it. as for the explanation why hiss went away is that the hiss is entirely from the tweeter. a 12" speaker just can't faithfully reproduce a hiss even if it wanted to. (unless of course they are some rare specialized full-range single speaker things. they exist.)

 

as for why the hiss was there to begin with, probably not-so-great power amp. (i'm assuming you got the same sort of hiss you get when you turn up the volume too loud on a cheap home stereo with nothing playing.)

[Electric Catfish]

 

if you're going 100% traditional, that's cool with me. not saying your tube amp stops working because modellers are here. but what i'm wondering about is, how do you resolve the fact that the guys who made the modellers say "our products are meant to be used with full-range set up. if you are not, you are doing it wrong and you will get less than what you paid for" and you saying "running a modeller through full range is stupid. i will run mine through a tube power amp and a guitar cab." i mean it's just how they MADE it. how they were programmed, how they were tested, how they were intended. for best possible operation. just read a manual, please. i know it's a thick manual and you don't use a modeller. that's fine. don't use a modeller and stick to other things. just don't pretend like you know what you're talking about when it comes to MODELLERS which you don't use and which you are clueless about. i haven't said {censored} about running your old tube preamp through a PA without a guitar cab. that's stupid. don't do it. we have no disagreements when there are no modellers in the picture. it's just that you are clueless about any set up involving a modeller. i'm not going to continue feeding a troll. btw i am a beginner guitar player but i happen to be a student of electrical engineering and a qualified sound guy. but you don't have to take it on my authority. i strongly suggest you read the manual or talk to the manufacturer for suggested usage. just ask them which set up will be better. modeller through tube amp and 4x12 or a modeller through a pair of mackie srm450. i'm not suggesting that Electric Catfish do so. because he doesn't use a modeller so he doesn't need to know how to use one. and that's perfectly okay. probably he gets great sounds out of real tube amps, no doubt. but anyone else who is actually considering using a modeller should learn what the correct way to use it is.

 

 

Isn't the Atomic (the device we were talking about) SPECIFICALLY designed for use with modellers? Maybe you should "read the manual" to that...I mean, I know it's thick manual....

 

You like to throw the word "clueless" around a lot, for a beginner. A "student" of electrical engineering, but I don't have to take it on your "authority"??? Really? Thanks.

 

What, specifically, does being a "qualified sound guy" entail?