Best power amp for use with amp modeler?

[zoinghun]

Isn't the Atomic (the device we were talking about) SPECIFICALLY designed for use with modellers? Maybe you should "read the manual" to that...I mean, I know it's thick manual.... You like to throw the word "clueless" around a lot, for a beginner. A "student" of electrical engineering, but I don't have to take it on your "authority"??? Really? Thanks. What, specifically, does being a "qualified sound guy" entail?

 

 

atomic is specifically made for modellers, yes. but it's not as good as real legit PA. but it's better than other guitar setups for the purpose of running modellers through.

 

atomic has its place. mainly it's cheaper than a nice PA. but it's not as good as PA. for the reasons that i've mentioned before.

 

if you don't want to buy PA gear, then go for these tech21 and atomic products. they are cheaper than a PA gear and maybe you can't tell the difference. just saying PA gears are the best, in the sense that no other solution mentioned has the capability to reproduce full range frequencies (as in nothing in the 17khz for example) and nothing else guaranteeds flat frequency response throughout the full range frequencies (very important) and nothing else has the 'clean headroom' (like 300+ watts per speaker).

 

as for my qualifications, i'd rather not broadcast them in the open. but if you PM me, i can give details with referrals. perhaps you will find it satisfactory.

[thrashmetl]

I was running my Pod into a Marshall 9200 Dual Monobloc that I retrofitted with EL34's into a 4x12 with Vintage 30's, sounded amazing. Warmed up the tone very well.

[scottop1972]

would majorly depend on the quality of the PA. better PA (specifically, better power amp and balanced cables) would have solved it. as for the explanation why hiss went away is that the hiss is entirely from the tweeter. a 12" speaker just can't faithfully reproduce a hiss even if it wanted to. (unless of course they are some rare specialized full-range single speaker things. they exist.) as for why the hiss was there to begin with, probably not-so-great power amp. (i'm assuming you got the same sort of hiss you get when you turn up the volume too loud on a cheap home stereo with nothing playing.)

 

 

i tried this same experiment with ..... JBL 115's 2 way passives with a yamaha brand new PA set up.... I tried it with passive PA peavey neodyniums. I tried it wit the new bose PA. I even tried it with Roland keyboard amps and mackie SRM 450's and JBL eons. dont get me wrong it sounded good. just not great, a little sterile sounding. there was a noticable hiss on certain patches esp acoustic sims. when i switched to the guitar cab it was alot more organic sounding.

 

Just FYI it sounded better with the passives and going through my guitar poweramp. the hiss goes away due to the fact that guitars and amps live in the mid range and having full range speakers is useless. guitar poweramps warm up tone by staying in the range that guitars are meant to stay in. it cuts the really highs which eliminates the hiss.

 

you will not be able to convince me otherwise. i experimented for over a year and a half with this. I did however go with the flattest response speakers i could find with a high overhead for just the purposes we spoke of. I wanted the tone shaping to occur in my preamp not my speakers or power section.

[mrspeed]

scottop1972 -

tell me more about this "1x12 detuned cab". I can see your point of using the Legend Modeling 12 speakers. They seem to drop off at 5k but then again your modeling an amp and speaker that probably drop off at the same frequencies. I suppose as long as the speaker doesn't color the sound it would ok to use it.

 

I think we can all agree a flat response system is the way to go for modelers. Powered PA speakers and keyboard amps work great.

[Harry-L]

Atomic amps are wonderful as is a Bose stick.

[dimmypage]

Yeah, I love how that one looks. I'd trade my RS1000 for it.

Thanks Cratz:wave:

[zoinghun]

So is there any cab/power amp that's convenient for a home practice/small gig type setup? I'm interested in getting a modeller for the versatility and DI recording capabilities but I don't want to spend a ton of money to be able to practice with it without headphones and sound good. the Tech21 Power Engine looks pretty cool, and Tech21 claims it recreates the modeller's tone.

 

 

good stuff, i think

[Rydock]

 

you're completely misunderstanding. it's not even funny. no one is saying anything but modellers should be run through full range. this is what i'm saying: guitar -> preamp -> power amp -> cab -> mic -> PA equals guitar -> modeller -> PA also equals guitar -> modeller with cab sim turned off -> power amp -> guitar cab -> mic -> PA but does not equal guitar -> modeller -> anything but full range (which is apparently what everyone else in this forum is doing.) nobody brought up the picture 'guitar -> some chain without either cab simulation or an actual guitar cab -> PA' (except you) because that's not what people are interested in. guitar cabs can produce these harmonics. but in a very particular way. modellers models these harmonics in ways that full range can reproduce them. modellers model these harmonics ways that guitar cabs CANNOT produce them. an exception to this is line 6 stuff that has a special setting for sending it through a guitar cab. (it has to go through some EQ. and it's still not ideal, as guitar cab is not very controlled or precise.) this is just the way modellers were meant to be used. but guitarists are not sound techs and they keep using modellers in ways that they were not intended to be used. this is why i can't trust user reviews of modellers. "it sounds {censored}ty" well no {censored}. you're using it wrong. if you don't get it, don't worry about it. just stay away from modellers, old timer. and let your sound guys worry about it if you're ever in the position.

 

 

Wow..........

 

I don't know about tonelabs, but your points would have all been true if you had MIC simulations enabled. You can have mic sims turned off with PODs. Also, if you were running direct recording output. With pods you are open to the adjustabilty of running the modeler as a digital preamp.

 

What's more, you are thinking about Atomics the wrong way. You are talking about running modelers through a PA system. The Atomics is not like your regular PA; It's a tube poweramp stage. When you have your modeler set correctly and running through an Atomic. With all of these aspects combined, an Atomic because an act

 

Properly setup it looks just like:

 

Guitar -> Digital Preamp -> Tube Poweramp -> Cab

 

Allow me to reiterate at this point: My modeler is set to run as a preamp to be run through a power amp stage. It took months of tweaking and trial and error to give it these amp-like qualities (mind you, this is before atomic webforums and before people knew about them to play around with it.)

 

You are thinking too much into theory. At the end of the day, it's what 'works' for someone that decides that it's good or not.

 

What works for me is the 'feel' of a guitar amp, rather than a modeler running through a PA. From what you are saying, you have never played through a properly set up atomic before. I've had mine for years, and I've been using it because I believe it is the best for what I'm using it for. It does indeed FEEL like a guitar amp. If you've played through my setup, you would know exactly what I was talking about... Nothing is lost that a real amp should have... Theory will always be defeated by actual experience...

[corporealJigsor]

atomic is specifically made for modellers, yes. but it's not as good as real legit PA. but it's better than other guitar setups for the purpose of running modellers through. atomic has its place. mainly it's cheaper than a nice PA. but it's not as good as PA. for the reasons that i've mentioned before. if you don't want to buy PA gear, then go for these tech21 and atomic products. they are cheaper than a PA gear and maybe you can't tell the difference. just saying PA gears are the best, in the sense that no other solution mentioned has the capability to reproduce full range frequencies (as in nothing in the 17khz for example) and nothing else guaranteeds flat frequency response throughout the full range frequencies (very important) and nothing else has the 'clean headroom' (like 300+ watts per speaker). as for my qualifications, i'd rather not broadcast them in the open. but if you PM me, i can give details with referrals. perhaps you will find it satisfactory.

 

 

You really should NOT be worried about 17khz for guitar. If for some reason there was a lot of sound up there it would sound {censored}. Anything above about 6khz should only be present at a very low level.

[Nik]

Atomic amps were designed to make the original Pod and the Pod2.0 sound warmer, which they do. Not all modellers need warming up.

I've had Roland/Boss modellers and while they capture the character of the amps they model pretty well, they lag well behind the PodXT and especially Tonelabs for dynamics and warmth.

12" guitar speakers have a clean response up to around 5kHz. But when pushed hard, they themselves start to distort, and produce their own distortion harmonics well above 5kHz. Therefore to cleanly reproduce the modelled sound of a 12" speaker being pushed hard, you need speakers with a frequency response well in excess of 5kHz, i. e. with tweaters.

The OP was asking specifically about amplifying a Tonelab. The Tonelabs are unique in that they use a configurable valve power amp to model valve power amp behaviour. So if you haven't tried amplifying a Tonelab yourself...

[scottop1972]

scottop1972 - tell me more about this "1x12 detuned cab". I can see your point of using the Legend Modeling 12 speakers. They seem to drop off at 5k but then again your modeling an amp and speaker that probably drop off at the same frequencies. I suppose as long as the speaker doesn't color the sound it would ok to use it. I think we can all agree a flat response system is the way to go for modelers. Powered PA speakers and keyboard amps work great.

here is a pic of my set up. it goes. guitar into digitech 2120 artist series tube pream/processor-> mosvalve SS 1160 poweramp-> a pair of 1x12 detuned cabs with legend modelling 12's.

a detuned cab is just a 2x12 with one speaker removed. it is "detuned" in that the big hole is not a "tuned" port. this works very well. it sounds huge and the difference between 1 or 2 speakers in a cab is like 3db. I chose the speaker because of its power handling and its more flat response. remember that guitars live in the mid range so having full range is not as important as some would have you believe. i tried all of my experiments with a boss GT8 not my current set up. i totally think the preamp tubes help. Digitech really had it going on with the 2101, 2112 and 2120 series. the options and tones this thing puts out are awesome.

[scottop1972]

check out london power google it. thats where i bought the book about speaker cabs. i based my design off of theirs. the cabs are deep. that may also attribut to its huge sound.

PS thats solid flamed maple with walnut inlay. wicker fronts. 1/2 inch baltic birch back and baffle. these sound amazing.

PS for sale $ 2000 each. the 6 space matching rack i will let go for $500

[scottop1972]

eminence stopped making the legend modelling 12's.

too bad. i liked them.

[mrspeed]

Nice work but those cabs look heavy ! Every once in a while when I think I'm going to design a 1-12" cab for modelers I think about searching for some kind of a 2-way speaker. You know, the kind where the tweeter is on the same axis as the woofer. Not sure if it exists. By the time I get to goole to search for something I forget why I was there.

 

Also to be honest I'm pretty happy going through keyboard amps for my modelers.

[Nik]

Nice work but those cabs look heavy ! Every once in a while when I think I'm going to design a 1-12" cab for modelers I think about searching for some kind of a 2-way speaker. You know, the kind where the tweeter is on the same axis as the woofer. Not sure if it exists. By the time I get to goole to search for something I forget why I was there. Also to be honest I'm pretty happy going through keyboard amps for my modelers.

 

 

I got a couple of Fane 12"ers with "wizer" cones. It's not a separate tweater - just a little paper hron attached to the dust cap, but it hives you an extra octave. I put them into a pair of wedges and the are pretty good with modellers, so long as I boost the high end a bit. Been driving them recently with a Crate Powerblock.

 

Tannoy make decent Dual Concentric12" drivers, but they are real pricey. I would like to get som 10" DCs to try in a pair of Marshall 1x10 cabs.

[jeverist]

The guys in the Boss GT-8 videos run them through Roland JC-120s. You could get one of those or one of the smaller JCs and its also a great guitar sound all on its own.

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=720

[robbyg]

x3live line outs stereo to peavey classic 50/50 stereo tube, out stereo to 4x12 stereo peavey cabinet. For sound reinforcment, you can go XLR stereo outs from xl3live to board, or XLR stereo outs from 50/50(which have trim pots to vary output) to board. Happiest I've ever been with my sound both on stage and in the house!

[zoinghun]

Nice work but those cabs look heavy ! Every once in a while when I think I'm going to design a 1-12" cab for modelers I think about searching for some kind of a 2-way speaker. You know, the kind where the tweeter is on the same axis as the woofer. Not sure if it exists. By the time I get to goole to search for something I forget why I was there. Also to be honest I'm pretty happy going through keyboard amps for my modelers.

 

 

they do exist. (info). exactly like Nik said, it takes a whizzer.

[Nik]

they do exist. ( info ). exactly like Nik said, it takes a whizzer.

 

 

http://www.44bx.com/tannoy/

[chairman meow]

I have an old Traynor Bloc 100. It's a solid state 100 watt 1X12. The clean channel is very transparent. If you watch eBay you can find them cheap fairly regularly. They're all a bit old now, having been built in the 80s, but they're simple and tough. Just a thought.

 

 

I can second this one. I have a Traynor Bloc 100GT which has a beautiful clear clean and a lot of power. I use it with a variety of modellers and am happy with what I hear. $85 on craigslist.

[bdegrande]

Any solid state full range amp (bass/keyboard/acoustic) where you have an input that bypasses the preamp will do fine. The modeler itself is creating the tonal characreristics of the amp it's modeling - tube grit, amount of gain, etc. All you want to do is amplify it further. A full range amp will color the sound as little as possible, and running it thtough another preamp (like into the front of a combo amp) just adds noise.

I use a Centaur acoustic amp (these are usually marketed as Acoustic PAs). They have separate tweeters and lots of inputs (you can bypass the preamp, use XLR in for vocals, etc.) Built like a tank, sound great, made in the US, and dirt cheap on the used market.