Tuning a Fender Rhodes (equal temperment or stretch tuning?)

[Music Calgary]

I've never used a guitar tuner that worked.

 

The guitar tuner in Guitar Rig and/or most PODs work fine.

[blue2blue]

That's exactly how I tune guitar. I've never used a guitar tuner that worked.

Guitar tuners (should) deliver the 12TET (standardized 12 tone equal temperament) note values that will, in general, give you the best results when moving form key to key.

 

 

A lot of folks seem to think that there is something wrong with their guitar or their tuner if they carefully tune their guitar to a tuner and then go across the strings comparing harmonics to string values.

 

Even with no consideration for the physics of steel string inharmonicity that's preoccupied much of this thread, the difference between scales derived strictly from Pythagorean harmony and our own, quite tinkered 12TET means that trying to tune your guitar by harmonics alone is a fool's errand.

 

Why?

 

Because an equal tempered fourth is about 2 cents sharp from the true, Pythagorean fourth. So if you tune your four bottom strings so that each one is a true perfect fourth above the other, when you get up to the G string you're now about 8 cents flat from where you should be.

 

But it's still not quite that simple...

 

I just found these pages on guitar tuning and they seem pretty pertinent, discussing, as they do, equal temperament, inharmonicity, and what he calls string falseness.

 

http://www.amarilli.co.uk/guitar/gtuning.asp

[philbo]

 

Guitar tuners (should) deliver the 12TET (standardized 12 tone equal temperament) note values that will, in general, give you the best results when moving form key to key. A lot of folks seem to think that there is something wrong with their guitar or their tuner if they carefully tune their guitar to a tuner and then go across the strings comparing harmonics to string values. Even with no consideration for the physics of steel string inharmonicity that's preoccupied much of this thread, the difference between scales derived strictly from Pythagorean harmony and our own, quite tinkered 12TET means that trying to tune your guitar by harmonics alone is a fool's errand. Why? Because an equal tempered fourth is about 2 cents sharp from the true, Pythagorean fourth. So if you tune your four bottom strings so that each one is a true perfect fourth above the other, when you get up to the G string you're now about 8 cents flat from where you should be. But it's still not quite that simple... I just found these pages on guitar tuning and they seem pretty pertinent, discussing, as they do, equal temperament, inharmonicity, and what he calls string falseness. http://www.amarilli.co.uk/guitar/gtuning.asp

 

 

Hmmm... I do it often. The thing about being this 'tweaky' about tuning: If you have 5 perfectly tuned strings, and one that's flat, tuning the flat one to pitch will measurably detune the other five by increasing tension on the neck. Further, if you strum your carefully tuned pitch-perfect guitar 2 or 3 times, you are already measurably out of tune. So, what's the point?? IHMO, just get it close enough to not offend your ears, then just play the damn thing. These minute inharmonicities are some of what gives spirit and soul to the music, much the way auto-tune removes it.

 

FWIW, my harmonic tuning for standard tuning is:

low E 5th = A 7th = high E open (3 strings. Halfway done already)

low E 7th = B open

A 5th = D 7th

D 5th = G 7th

[Jimbroni]

Well this certainly turned out to be a can of worms.

 

But trying to get back on track.

 

One of things about a rhodes is that its action is very adjustable, and as result you can adjust where the tine is in relationship to the pickup which alters the Overtone to fundamental ratio. So it gets even nuttier. Like for the bass notes, I will probably go for more fundamental. More overtones in the middle, and probably more fundamental on the very top just to strengthen the signal. This just gets crazier by the minute. So trying to wrap my head around all of this, I don't think I have a choice but to tune it by ear. I'll probably use an electronic tuner to get everything in equal temperment, then adjust by ear to remove any beats.

 

Messing with a rhodes is not reccommended for people like me who have no patience and just wanna jam out on thing already.

[Jon Gnash]

Stretch tuning v. non-stretch tuning and just intonation v. equal temperament are two different issues.

 

Aren

[Jon Gnash]

I always thought it would be cool to write a malicious piece of music for a string section that would begin in one key (let

[slight-return]

I do seem to vaguely recall some "spiral tunings" (such as just 5th based tunings that disregard octaves, I even recall someone doing a Phi-based tuning...which is spiral and basically takes us into pretty wacky territory outside of trad western "diatonic/chromatic" tonal music altogether) at some point - but I only recall it as true experimental music (as opposed to an excuse to run a bunch of verb and fuzz )

 

hmm, I'd say hit up IRCAM -- I bet they'd be able to give you some more info in that direction

[Jimbroni]

I do seem to vaguely recall some "spiral tunings" (such as just 5th based tunings that disregard octaves, I even recall someone doing a Phi-based tuning...which is spiral and basically takes us into pretty wacky territory outside of trad western "diatonic/chromatic" tonal music altogether) at some point - but I only recall it as true experimental music (as opposed to an excuse to run a bunch of verb and fuzz ) hmm, I'd say hit up IRCAM -- I bet they'd be able to give you some more info in that direction

 

Correct me if wrong, but I thought Just intonation is based on tuning perfect fifths rather than octaves. Which makes the octaves imperfect in just intonation.

 

But yes Jon, just intonation has nothing to do with stretch tuning.

 

The fender Rhodes is a unique animal, and I was hoping to get some opinions from people who have experience with them. I really wasn't planning on this conversation getting into all these various historical intonation schemes.

 

Damn liberals.

[linwood]

I tune mine equal. Many years ago, I use to have a tuner tune one rhodes that I had and he would stretch tune. To my tin ears, equal sounds fine and I can do it myself with my strobe. I also have the scarbee sampled rhodes and that has both included. Both sound great to me. In fact, I just played each one and I have no preference to one or the other. Go figure....

[slight-return]

 

Correct me if wrong, but I thought Just intonation is based on tuning perfect fifths rather than octaves. Which makes the octaves imperfect in just intonation.

 

 

Generally, not -- the octave is sort of sacrosanct as the lowest integer ratio 2:1 so it's sort of "ultimately consonant" - you define each of the pitch classes only once through the 5ths cycle...you then tune each note of a pitch class as a just octave

 

There are a few different was of arriving at just intonation, depending on what just intervals you use to make your "leaps" do define other notes than Do. Deriving everything from the fifth as in Pythagorean tuning is called "quintally just" b/c it is just only in terms of fifths

 

 

So you start with Do (and each do will have a 2:1^n ratio there) then move to defining Sol (as a just fifth - with all Sol getting a 2:1^n ratio to Sol then doing it again defining Re (again, with all Re being in octaves), Then La, Then Mi....

but the thirds aren't going to work out very well all

 

 

So that's where we start sweeping things under the rug (Pythagoras did a lot of "cooking the books")

 

Other guy named Ramos in the late 1400s did a more fully just system (the fifths AND the thirds attempt to be just) where the notes were defined within a single octave (Do-Do then Do-Sol then Do-Mi then Do-Fa then you start getting into second levels like Sol-Ti)

 

Now this generally works pretty well as long as you are working of do, but build a triad off Re and you are ROYALLY screwed

[Jon Gnash]

There are a few different was of arriving at just intonation, depending on what just intervals you use to make your "leaps" do define other notes than Do. Deriving everything from the fifth as in Pythagorean tuning is called "quintally just" b/c it is just only in terms of fifths

Yea. I guess the phrase

[the stranger]

Correct me if wrong, but I thought Just intonation is based on tuning perfect fifths rather than octaves. Which makes the octaves imperfect in just intonation. But yes Jon, just intonation has nothing to do with stretch tuning. The fender Rhodes is a unique animal, and I was hoping to get some opinions from people who have experience with them. I really wasn't planning on this conversation getting into all these various historical intonation schemes. Damn liberals.

 

Just get the damn octaves right, then balance the fifths and thirds, tweak after that and leave us to our esoteric b.s.

 

How many octaves is the keyboard? Was this mentioned?

 

If it's 5, I'd do the octaves on the middle 3 and stretch the outsides.

 

Here's some dirt I found:

 

FENDER RHODES SERVICE FAQ

 

4. Can you stretchtune a Fender Rhodes? Well, here is another myth used by sample-manufacturers. Let's talk about tuning an acoustic piano first. You will probably know that a tone consists of a root note with a series of partials (overtones) superposed on it. The combination of various loudnesses of overtones creates the timbre of a tone. In a piano these loudnesses of partials of a string are amplified and filtered by the soundboard, trying to create the best possible airwave tittilating your eardrums. The frequencies of the partials are determined by simple mathematical order, imposed by the Divine Dude himself. But that's not the whole story, because this clear and simple Divine Order gets obscured by various physical side effects. So, the partials of a pianostring usually sound a little bit higher than they theoretically should, due to stiffness and little frictions and tensions at the end of a string. The shorter the strings are, the bigger the deviation, that is why you always see those large grands in the concerthall. Now, suppose you want to tune a A1760 Hz to a A 880 Hz that is in tune. The procedure for these higher octaves of the piano is to tune the A 1760 Hz beatless to the first overtone of the A 880 Hz. However, the first overtone of an A 880 Hz (1 octave higher = 1760 Hz), sounds a little bit higher than the theoretically expected value, let's say 1762 herz. That means that the rootnote of your A 1760 Hz ends up at 1762 Hz to be beatless with the A 880 Hz one octave below it. The octave is now STRETCHED. So, all piano's are stretchtuned, the amount of stretching depending on the length of strings, not so much on your pianotuner! So can you stretchtune a Rhodes? Well, not in the sense I described above, which is the proper one. The reason being that the overtones of a Rhodes-tine are much closer to the theoretically expected values than a pianostring, just like the tuning-fork you might own. That's why the highest notes of a Rhodes always seem to sound a bit low, although perfectly in tune with the notes below. Maybe because we are so used to the pianosound and for psycho-acoustic reasons. I usually only tune the very last notes of the Rhodes a bit too high, so I get a small beat in the last octaves that is acceptable, thus trying to compensate for Mr. Harold Rhodes "Too Divine Design". But that is not stretchtuning, you cannot strechtune a Rhodes. The lower notes of a Rhodes are very much influenced by magnetic pull of the pickups. Their frequency depends very much on how hard you strike them, but this can be effectively used to enhance the sound and give it more character. Even experienced pianotuners can not properly tune a Rhodes, it requires a Rhodes-tech who can tune acoustic piano's; a guy like me :-) 5. What is the function of the black clips on the highest tonebars? They serve two purposes. They improve sustain and they can be used to tune those hard to tune high notes instead of using the little springs on the tine (or using both). Sometimes they can diminish sustain, but just leave them on the tonebars or store them in a jar so you do not lose them; they are very hard to get.

[the stranger]

http://www.fenderrhodes.com/service/manual.php

 

Lots of links for manuals, schematics, etc...

[Jimbroni]

Just get the damn octaves right, then balance the fifths and thirds, tweak after that and leave us to our esoteric b.s. How many octaves is the keyboard? Was this mentioned? If it's 5, I'd do the octaves on the middle 3 and stretch the outsides. Here's some dirt I found: FENDER RHODES SERVICE FAQ

 

It's a 73 so just short of six octaves. I do have the Service manual but I hadn't found this faq, so thanks thats another really good source of information.

 

One thing I'm finding out is there is no consensus on Fender Rhodes tuning, like there is with a std piano. So I'm left with basically its up to me. All of this has been very helpful to understand the whys. But I'm starting to lean towards tuning it by octaves, and if anything I may stretch the high end only.

 

The good news is If I really wanna a stretch later, I'll just put it in the piano room and tune it note for note to it.

 

Unfortunately, I broke a couple dampers trying to tweak the action today. So now I must a wait a couple days for a new damper strip.

[the stranger]

Just let us hear what you end up with, Jimbro!

[slight-return]

Yea. I guess the phrase

[slight-return]

Jim, I think you;ll be fine with just a straight tuning or a slight stretch...I mean we are talking a "sweetening" anyway, you are going to be radically out there (and it's not like the damn thing is going to stay perfectly there anyway and I find a little drift can help fill out the sound - kinda like slightly mistuning courses on a 12 string guitar...I mean , we often add artifical beats to it anyway with treatments - put a chorus on the bitch!)

 

I mean this whole issue...it's been going on for hundreds of years --

[Jimbroni]

 

Jim, I think you;ll be fine with just a straight tuning or a slight stretch...I mean we are talking a "sweetening" anyway, you are going to be radically out there (and it's not like the damn thing is going to stay perfectly there anyway and I find a little drift can help fill out the sound - kinda like slightly mistuning courses on a 12 string guitar...I mean , we often add artifical beats to it anyway with treatments - put a chorus on the bitch!) I mean this whole issue...it's been going on for hundreds of years --

 

 

Oh I intend to (chorus that is) Actually I employ Boss Ds1(soon to be replaced with a modded Big muff), DOD envelope filter, and a boss stereo chorus, on this puppy. Well actually the other puppy. I also have a late 70's model that was just recently given to me, its like it came out of time capsule. Near perfect condition. So thats the one I've been playing lately. But it has this late 70's smooth put the ladies to bed kinda thing going on.

 

As where my old one is fullerton model and has the wooden hammers, its got a lot of that old school grit and clickiness. So I thought it'd be nice to have one tuned straight and one tuned with a stretch. Though after all this I'm starting to question the stretch on a rhodes, but I'll probably approach it as you suggest just a little bit up top.

 

But speaking of beats due to mistuning, alot of this was inspired by my recently tuned piano being overdubbed on our current project. There is a lot of little chorusey beats created when playing an acoustic piano along with an electric bass and guitar. It makes the piano come to life especially up top.

[Jimbroni]

Update : Used a tuner to get to equal temperment. Double checked the octaves by ear. The rhodes does infact tune up by ear and match pretty close to the tuner. That said it does sound a little hmm plain. More like my smooth jazzy late 70's rhodes, perhaps it can use a little salt. For right now, I'm just gonna jam out on it for a while.

[the stranger]

Rock and Roll!

[ElectricPianoCo]

One of the main reasons for stretch tuning is to facilitate in the creation of more appealing harmonies by intervals as there is a greater distance between the notes. On a 73 or 88 key piano, Rhodes or otherwise, Stretch tuning will create a much more dynamic sound. In particular, the highest notes of a Rhodes will begin to sound much more pleasing than when tuned to equal temperament.

 

I was shocked when I first learned that Rhodes pianos were originally tuned to equal temperament when they left the factory. After tuning hundreds of electric pianos such as Rhodes and Wurlitzer and experimenting with different tuning philosophies, The Chicago Electric Piano Company wholeheartedly endorses stretch tuning for all pianos serviced by our shop. When you hear the two tunings side by side, there is no doubt that stretch tuning is far more appealing--the alternative almost sounds out of tune.

 

It's also true that synthesizers and some combo organs have equal temperament tuning, but their keys usually span fewer octaves and they do not have physical vibrating parts that result in inharmonicity when tuned. Once you get to out to the outer notes of a 64 key piano (like a Wurlitzer), the stretch becomes more significant than in the middle few octaves.

 

For more of a general introduction to stretch tuning, or tuning Rhodes and Wurlitzers, you can check out our recent blog post here:

 

The Chicago Electric Piano Co.: Stretch Tuning vs. Equal Temperament

[A. Einstein]

You tune a Rhodes "well tempered" (not equal), here how it goes.

 

1) A to 440 Hz.

 

 

2)

 

A - D

G - C

F - Bb

Eb - Ab

Db - Gb

B - E

 

Always fourth up-fifth down. All pure with a beating of about 0.1 to 0.2 Hz per second

 

 

3) Now you make from this well tempered tuned notes as in 1) the octaves, all pure with no beating.

[rasputin1963]

I always used to tune my Yamaha grand to stretch tuning... I had a tuner who did it well. It really made the piano sound brilliant and crisp. Great for pop & jazz.

[A. Einstein]

well tempered sounds better, more musical because you have pure intervals, fit also better into an orchestral sound, sound like the real thing then, no f***ing theoretical tuning

 

piano tuners tune well tempered, at least in Europe all concert grands and uprights are well tempered

 

stretch sounds to off, and equal is something for synthesizers and a theory

[A. Einstein]

 

I had a tuner who did it well.

 

 

you only set the A 442 Hz with the tuner, the rest of all string you do by ear

 

a tuner knows no pure intervals, as well doesn't detect the required beating