Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Damnit,... Please Craig,Ruzz,Phil,Bruce,... I need big help on this one. I have this small room as you know and when I'm working I have the following problem. When I'm in my usual position I have less bass than when I'm sitting 20 cms to the back or front. Is there some sort of supurb position in which I need to sit in here??? I have no room to get more space between my monitors and my wall. And if I sit back I can't reach my desk,....... The center of my monitor woofers,..the white cones are one meter apart. The distance between the cones and my ears are exactly one meter also. When I move my head forward the bass increases. When I move back the same happens,... So,......Am I sitting at the good spot?? Is a triangle shape a good listening position? How can I measure weird stuff in my room??? here are two pics : Man this is very annoying,..... Especcially because I just haven't got room to move anything,........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members russrags Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Booshy, Try standing your speakers UP instead of laying them down.You'll be surprised how no longer you will be confined to a sweet spot. RussNashville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 I just tried that,...same problem,...Move my head,...sound changes,... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Calling Ethan Winer... Sounds like you need to treat your room, booshie! Standing wave city... Anti-nodes to the front of you. Anti-nodes waves to the rear of you. And a node where you are... I haven't had a chance to give it a good look over but for animated graphics alone, this 'BB whitepaper' looks pretty cool: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=1133439 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Okay,...Treatening is not an option at this point. There's a roommode switch at the back of the Yamahas that needs to be set according to how close the monitor is to the back wall.(the wall behind the monitor). I did that and now the sound only changes when I move backwards. My problem is,..... How the hell do I know what the right amount of bass is???? I can mix songs either way. Sitting back I hear more bass so I mix according to that. When I'm in my usual position I hear less bass so I turn it up,... Now what If I playback some frequencies and record them with a mic at my listening position,...If I run that recording through a spectrum analyzer,... would that tell my which position to put my chair?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Room treatment doesn't have to be insanely expensive -- but even without treatment materials, simply finding a (potentially) better placement could reduce some of your probs. That article (in the BB link in my post above) looks like it had a lot of good info that can help inform your decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Han Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Read as much as you can about bass trapping. Just a thin plate of wood and some glasswool will do the job. Will cost you two or three crates of Heineken, but the result will be brilliant. Ethan has some drawings on his website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Well I can spare three crates of Heineken Han but I ca treat this room all the way I want,... I still don't if it sounds the way it should at my listening postion man,.. I know and read all the stuff about treatening and standing waves and all but that doesn't tell me {censored} about my listening spot. How can I measure if sound is right where my chair is?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Well, the other thing, Booshy, is that (IMHO) NS-10s have a terribly small sweet spot. I really don't like using those monitors for mixing at all, and the problem you stated is pretty typical. The bass response changes every few inches. People started using NS-10s because "everyone else was using them", but they were never really designed for critical listening. They were originally made for crappy consumer bookshelf speakers, and they still sound that way to me. But since all these people tuned their ears to them, and saw those damn white cones on the magazine covers, they thought NS-10's were what they were supposed to use. So, no matter how you treat the room, the monitors are still going to sound and act like NS-10's. But you can still probably make them a little better with some treatment, and you can indeed treat the room slightly for pretty cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Glass wool can help. Don't you just love mixing in small rooms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the stranger Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 But since all these people tuned their ears to them... Jeff has the key. The number one solution is to become able to listen to your monitors and be able to know how that sound is going to translate. I mixed on a pair of {censored}ty Technics speakers for years...and nothing else was going to work...I tried numerous other options, but I always went back to those cheap home speakers. Why? Because after years of training my ears to that set of speakers, I could accurately mix and have that mix translate well to other speakers. The best thing you can to do test a mix is to leave the control room and go find a normal/typical playback scenario (the car, the kitchen radio, etc). After you do this with your system, you will eventually be able to mix effectively. It doesn't matter what your monitors are...it matters if you know how they are going to translate to other systems. So, forget trying to fix your setup. It's obvious you have what you have to work with, even if it's limited. But, you can learn your system well enough to mix effectively. As for your current issue, I would assume that when you back up, you are moving into a standing bass wave. Which tells me trust the sweet spot, not the areas outside of it. Like I said though, it doesn't matter what you are hearing when you are in the control room. What matters is what you hear outside of the control room. My car stereo is my best friend for checking mixes. I need the control room and the car stereo to effectively mix. Which makes me think you should get another set of monitors, so you can switch between both to get a better picture. Plus, another set of monitors (el-cheapo stereo speakers, radio shack cubes, boombox, anything) is going to react differently in your room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Use really good headphones as a reality check. Also, although I find most room tuning things to be ineffective, I gotta say IK Multimedia's ARC is excellent if you want to make a good room better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Don't you just love mixing in small rooms? I just love mixing To Jeff and Stranger: Yeah man, I understand. I didn't buy the Yamahas because they look like NS10s. I bought them because I took 10 of my favorite CDs to the shop and auditioned about 15 pairs of monitors. The Yamahas were the once I loved. I still love them ,the sound is awsome and I've made some good mixes on them that transalate well to other environments and systems. I do test everything I make on ordinary computer speakers,I-Pod,Headphones,Carradio and home cinema system. I used Technics Hi-Fi speakers for 15 years and I really got to know them. They sounded the same wherever I placed them and whatever house I lived in. I never ever had a weird sonic flaw wherever I stood while listening. And that's what annoys me with the Yamahas,...as soon as I lift my ass to fart the sound changes,... I feel like I need my head fixed with some metal tubes to the center of the room to get the same sound each minute,.. I can live with monitors that have too little or to much bass,.. My ears can adjust. But mixes that change because I move 20 centimeters get on my nerves,... Aaah nevermind,...maybe I'm just whining and moaning,.. some people mix on little home-stereos. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Well I can spare three crates of Heineken Han but I ca treat this room all the way I want,... I still don't if it sounds the way it should at my listening postion man,..I know and read all the stuff about treatening and standing waves and all but that doesn't tell me {censored} about my listening spot.How can I measure if sound is right where my chair is?? Well you can download a frequency spectrum analyzer for free from a variety of places. Just blast a pink noise signal into the room, use your flatest response microphone at ear level. Measure the response, the curve should be flat at 1/3 octave bands, move the mic foward and backward until the spectrum is as flat as you can get. Thats where your ears go. Just be prepared to accept the results. In small room untreated like that you will not be anywhere close to a flat curve. I'd be surprised if it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 The Ik plugin is a bit out of my league,...The headphone check is great! I don't have the problem when I move my head with them on.It gives me a good reality check on what to trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Well you can download a frequency spectrum analyzer for free from a variety of places. Just blast a pink noise signal into the room, use your flatest response microphone at ear level. Measure the response, the curve should be flat at 1/3 octave bands, move the mic foward and backward until the spectrum is as flat as you can get. Thats where your ears go. That's cool,..I'm gonna try that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Han Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Mixing on headphones is very difficult because the stereo image is significant different from monitor speakers. SPL has a headphone amp called 'Phonitor' and I have one for testing. But this will set you back for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 That's cool,..I'm gonna try that! Take digital photos or screen shots of the response curve and print it out. So this way you'll know your problem frequencies to keep in mind when mixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 I never intended to mix on headphones Han,..it's just to test mixes I made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted September 18, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 Okay,...Treatening is not an option at this point. Headphones? There's a roommode switch at the back of the Yamahas that needs to be set according to how close the monitor is to the back wall.(the wall behind the monitor). I did that and now the sound only changes when I move backwards.My problem is,..... How the hell do I know what the right amount of bass is???? That switch is a low frequency equalizer that attempts to compensate for the increase in bass output when the speakers are close to a wall or corner. As far as knowing what the right amount of bass is, well, that's just something that you'll have to learn. It won't come quickly. You can mix on anything anywhere as long as it's constant (you sit in one place when you make mix decisions) and you know what it should sound like. The way to learn what's correct is to listen to some recordings that sound right when you hear them in a good listening environment. If they sound bass-heavy, that's the amount of bass-heavy you want to make your mixes. Same if they sound bass-light. It isn't a perfect system but it will get you closer than just guessing. A technique that I've heard about (but never tried it myself) is that when you're mixing, put on a good sounding CD that's of a similar genre that you're working on. Switch back and forth between your mix and the CD and adjust yours so that the bass is as close as match as you can get it. Now what If I playback some frequencies and record them with a mic at my listening position,...If I run that recording through a spectrum analyzer,... would that tell my which position to put my chair?? Try it the other way. Put your chair where you prefer it, then record a sweep (not individual tones - you don't want to miss any peaks or dips) and see how horrid it is. Even the best rooms won't be very flat, but you can get an idea of the extent of your problems. If you nail your chair to the floor and nail your ass to the chair (and nail your speakers in place) you can get away with smoothing out the worst of the low end bumps with a parametric equalizer. But it will never be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 But it will never be right. Mike Rivers: eternal optimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted September 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Great tips Mike!In a way it's just how I do things already. I always crossreference my own stuff with stuff I really know and like. I switched back the room mode switch,... It doesn't do much on the place I sit. I listened to a very well known album called " Thriller " again(you might have heard of it), on 5 different systems and it seems the place I'm sitting has just the right amount of bass. Billie Jean for example gets too much bass when I move back and forth. I think my initial set-up is just right I just started wondering when I moved back and forth... I still hate it but I think I just have to get used to it. ,.....Sigh,...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members russrags Posted September 18, 2008 Members Share Posted September 18, 2008 Hey Booshy, You can always try running longer speaker cables out side of your Studio into another room, set it up proper in there and see if the problem goes away. You should be able to gauge from that what might be going on in your Studio, so you can make a better decision. 2.) Try putting your speakers on your shorter wall temporarily and see if the problem goes away??? I haven't read all the posts yet, but I doubt this has been mentioned. RussNashville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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