Les Paul Wiring Options

[Les Paul Lover]

Hi Gents,


I need a little HCEG help please!


Recently acquired an Orange AD15, a fabulous 1 channel amp.
This calls for some guitar volume knob action, but my LP (2008 faded standard) loses a lot of treble when rolling it down.

I know there are a lot of other options, but some people say some wiring bring about other headaches?

What are the options?
What are the Pros & Cons?

Any schematics?

I don't think the cost would be huge, so I'm not opposed to taking off the whole lot and replacing everything (new pots/caps the whole lot) if needed.

Many thanks for your help and advice!!!!!!

[BG76]

[Meowy]

either use a treble bleed (above), or use 50s wiring. Either will work. Neither is better. Depends what you like

50s wiring

[FourT6and2]

50's wiring will solve your issue.

[honeyiscool]

Here's what I don't get. If 50s wiring is so great why did it change?

[fretless]

with more modern pickups 50's wiring may be too bright also , w/ 50's wiring the interaction between volume and tone could drive some people crazy and may not be ideal for everyone . I like it though and going from stock wiring on my LP to 50's really woke it up and removed that mythical blanket effect . and looks nice too m/


before


after

[Les Paul Lover]

Thank you very much!!!!

So if I understand:

- the treble bleed just & only stops the loss of treble when rolling the volume down? No effect on tone pot or interaction between pick ups?

- 50s wiring - not too sure... so it stops that loss of treble I guess?

[Les Paul Lover]

Originally Posted by fretless

with more modern pickups 50's wiring may be too bright also , w/ 50's wiring the interaction between volume and tone could drive some people crazy and may not be ideal for everyone . I like it though and going from stock wiring on my LP to 50's really woke it up and removed that mythical blanket effect . and looks nice too m/


before


after

Nice wiring work indeed!


So that 50's wiring brightens up the general tone?
I'm not really after changing the tone of my LP, I do love it as it is (apart from treble loss aboviously ).

What does it do to the interaction volume/tone control?
Any effect on in between pick up position too?
What were your pick ups in your LP?

I like the look of those caps too - what are they? (loads of questions, hey? )

[fretless]

Originally Posted by Les Paul Lover

Nice wiring work indeed!


So that 50's wiring brightens up the general tone?
I'm not really after changing the tone of my LP, I do love it as it is (apart from treble loss aboviously ).

What does it do to the interaction volume/tone control?
Any effect on in between pick up position too?
What were your pick ups in your LP?

I like the look of those caps too - what are they? (loads of questions, hey? )

Thanks ! yup it could especially going from stock 300 or 400k pots to 500 or 540 or so but it also has more bass and just more all together . This has the stock 490r & 498t . The interaction is awesome IMO , every notch or position gives up a different tone , it's an almost endless variety . If you use your volume control alot it's a big plus as you find many useful tones . The caps in this are mojotone oil filled
http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/Vi...led-022uF-600V

[fretless]

she sounds like
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11740409

[Les Paul Lover]

Your clip sounds nice, but so many variables (amp/simulation effects/recording) makes it difficult to tell how that wiring impacts the tone - as I'm sure you understand.

So you changed the pots too? I was thinking of doing just that - taking the whole gibson pots plate off and redoing something anew. If I don't like it, reverting to original would be easy. And I've heard that paper in oil caps/bumblebee caps are much better too, so that would be the right time to do it indeed.

Interesting your comment about getting more low end as well as more high end out of that set up!

So you say the tone control reacts differently depending on volume level?

What about the in between postion?

[fretless]

Originally Posted by Les Paul Lover

Your clip sounds nice, but so many variables (amp/simulation effects/recording) makes it difficult to tell how that wiring impacts the tone - as I'm sure you understand.

So you changed the pots too? I was thinking of doing just that - taking the whole gibson pots plate off and redoing something anew. If I don't like it, reverting to original would be easy. And I've heard that paper in oil caps/bumblebee caps are much better too, so that would be the right time to do it indeed.

Interesting your comment about getting more low end as well as more high end out of that set up!

What about the in between postion?

Thanks ,
yes and yes I did change the pots , as the stock values were all over the place , from 230 to 460 or so though I also changed the selector switch , you might have to as the original is wired to the little board in the center then off to the output jack .
In between ? not sure what you mean ? These pups don't split .

[FourT6and2]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Here's what I don't get. If 50s wiring is so great why did it change?

It didn't. That's a common misconception. Gibson used "Modern" wiring back in the 50's as well. There was zero consistency. Gibson has used both "50's" and "Modern" throughout their existence.

Originally Posted by Les Paul Lover

Thank you very much!!!!

So if I understand:

- the treble bleed just & only stops the loss of treble when rolling the volume down? No effect on tone pot or interaction between pick ups?

- 50s wiring - not too sure... so it stops that loss of treble I guess?

I have two Les Pauls. One with 50's, one with Modern. There is zero difference between the two with all the knobs at 10 (same pot values, same caps). The only difference is with 50's wiring, you will retain some treble/high-end as you roll the volume pot down. And the tone knob and volume knob do have a different interaction with 50's wiring. But it's actually pretty cool. It lets you roll output down when you roll the tone knob down (when the volume pot is rolled down as well). So you can actually clean up a gained-out signal easier. Keep rolling the tone knob down (while the volume knob is rolled down) and you will get the same effect as a regular tone knob. But it gives you a few extra sounds compared to Modern wiring.

Originally Posted by fretless

Thanks ! yup it could especially going from stock 300 or 400k pots to 500 or 540 or so but it also has more bass and just more all together . This has the stock 490r & 498t . The interaction is awesome IMO , every notch or position gives up a different tone , it's an almost endless variety . If you use your volume control alot it's a big plus as you find many useful tones . The caps in this are mojotone oil filled
http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/Vi...led-022uF-600V

For the OP's understanding, I would leave pot value out of this. He's not asking about putting entirely new pots and caps in his guitar. He's just talking about rewiring it to 50's vs. Modern. And all that takes is moving the cap lead over to a different lug on the volume pot. Takes all of 2 minutes to do it. No need to start replacing pots.

[Les Paul Lover]

In fairness, I'm not opposed to replacing existing pots and caps - but fair point, changing their values will change the character of the guitar a fair bit too I expect?


edit: aplogies for overuse of word fair

[FourT6and2]

Originally Posted by Les Paul Lover

In fairness, I'm not opposed to replacing existing pots and caps - but fair point, changing their values will change the character of the guitar a fair bit too I expect?


edit: aplogies for overuse of word fair

Changing pot values will drastically alter the sound of your guitar with the pots at 10. 50's vs. Modern wiring is about how the tone changes as you roll the pots down. Pot value as is mostly about changing the resonant frequency of the pickups and the "headroom" (how much high-end is present) of the guitar. On a side note, the value of the pot will also slightly change the pot's response curve as it is turned.

But bottom line, if you wan to see how 50's wiring sounds, just swap the cap leg over to the other lug on the volume pot. Done. No need to start swapping pots and such.

[Les Paul Lover]

That easy?

That makes a compelling case for keeping the extising pots then.

I assume replacing the existing caps would be just as easy - 4 solder points instead of 2.


Does replacing caps really improve the tone?

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Originally Posted by Les Paul Lover

That easy?

That makes a compelling case for keeping the extising pots then.

I assume replacing the existing caps would be just as easy - 4 solder points instead of 2.


Does replacing caps really improve the tone?

Ant, I always steer people who ask this question to this pdf

http://singlecoil.com/docs/paula.pdf

Buy yourself two PIO Russian caps, one at 0.022 for the bridge and one at 0.015 for the neck

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

 

Originally Posted by FourT6and2

C No need to start swapping pots and such.

 

As long as they are not the 300K that Gibson seems so fond of sticking into some of it's guitars

[Les Paul Lover]

Originally Posted by Ratae Coritanorum

As long as they are not the 300K that Gibson seems so fond of sticking into some of it's guitars

What are their problems Sean?
I've not had any issues with them so far (no idea what's their rating mind you, will try and have a look, though from memory, it all looks very much like the before pic in fretless' guitar), but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be better.

It certainly sounds brilliant as is beside that treble loss problem.

[Meowy]

Originally Posted by Ratae Coritanorum

Ant, I always steer people who ask this question to this pdf

http://singlecoil.com/docs/paula.pdf

Buy yourself two PIO Russian caps, one at 0.022 for the bridge and one at 0.015 for the neck

This article is full of leaps of faith inconsistencies and inaccuracies:

"In very simple words and without going into the details your guitar should match this factors:
1. massive mahagony body with a curved, massive maple top
2. one piece mahagony neck with rosewood board and bone nut
3. neck glued to the body (aka "set-neck")

This is in very simple terms the overall construction of a Les Paul guitar. All the other hardware things like bridge, tuners etc. are not that interesting at the moment and can be replaced later if neccesary. If your guitar has any other construction (alder body, plain top, screwed neck ....) you can stop reading here - your guitar will never sound like an old Les Paul. Sorry, this is a fact and you have to face it here at this point to save yourself a lot of frustrations and of course a lot of money. Your guitar may sound great, but it will never sound like the tone we are talking about here."



So the author can hear the difference between glue and a neck plate and screws?
Nut matters more than pickups?

Oh and this:

"Almost all manufacturers offer more or less exact copies of the old PAF humbuckers and it should be easy to find comparison reviews of them on the internet or in a guitar magazine. In short and simple terms the pickup should have the correct number of windings with the correct wire and should use the correct magnets."

Exact copies of something that varied wildly in specs and with tone that ranged from crap to holy grail???

"Decide on good tuners with the correct tulip knobs from Kluson (original manufacturer), a good and massive bridge out of the right material and of course good bolts to hold it firmly and tight."


Shape of the knob and the name stamped on the casing is critical to tone. , even though the name on the guitar (as the author stated above) is unimportant

More bull{censored}: "You can buy the original strings for your Les Paul from Gibson in all kind of gauges but they don

[FourT6and2]

 

As long as they are not the 300K that Gibson seems so fond of sticking into some of it's guitars

 

 

That's a big presumption.

 

As I said before, volume pot value affects how bright or dark your pickups are. It is personal preference. I prefer lower-value pots in my guitars. Some people prefer high-value pots. You can't possibly make such a sweeping generalization that 300k pots are no good. Maybe they're no good to you, but don't give people advice based on your personal taste and spout it off as fact. It is misleading.

 

OP: Swap the leg of each capacitor over to the middle lug on the volume pots and you will have yourself 50's wiring. Test it out and see if you like it. If not, swap it back. Easy.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Meowy, the author somewhat clumsily and remember you're talking about someone whose first language isn't English, is simply describing what a late 50s Les Paul is, a sorta ingredients list and then how to cook a Les Paul with the ingredients.

 

I see it as a clumsily written precis on what you need to get as close as possible to a late 50s Paul.

 

And yes, I do see the construction as part of the sound, logic dictates that a whole lot of tone is consistent with construction type, although I'm not fully convinced that a well built bolt on LP won't get close to the set neck version.

 

And those late 50s pickups may have been made up of a variety of magnets and seem in many way random, but one can hear more similarities than differences;)

 

But in the main, I was pointing out the diagram and the fact that that website is a great source of pots n caps in Europe

 

 

This article is full of leaps of faith inconsistencies and inaccuracies: "In very simple words and without going into the details your guitar should match this factors: 1. massive mahagony body with a curved, massive maple top 2. one piece mahagony neck with rosewood board and bone nut 3. neck glued to the body (aka "set-neck") This is in very simple terms the overall construction of a Les Paul guitar. All the other hardware things like bridge, tuners etc. are not that interesting at the moment and can be replaced later if neccesary. If your guitar has any other construction (alder body, plain top, screwed neck ....) you can stop reading here - your guitar will never sound like an old Les Paul. Sorry, this is a fact and you have to face it here at this point to save yourself a lot of frustrations and of course a lot of money. Your guitar may sound great, but it will never sound like the tone we are talking about here."

 

[Meowy]

 

I see it as a clumsily written precis on what you need to get as close as possible to a late 50s Paul. And yes, I do see the construction as part of the sound, logic dictates that a whole lot of tone is consistent with construction type, although I'm not fully convinced that a well built bolt on LP won't get close to the set neck version. And those late 50s pickups may have been made up of a variety of magnets and seem in many way random, but one can hear more similarities than differences;) But in the main, I was pointing out the diagram and the fact that that website is a great source of pots n caps in Europe

 

 

Whether the author is clumsy with the English language or not, the article says the brand of guitar doesn't matter but the brand of tuners does. It says "bone" as the nut material is critical, but pretty much any vintage voiced humbuckers with any magnets will do.

 

I agree construction is important, but I have yet to meet someone who can hear a neck joint or how many pieces a neck is made from.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

 

That's a big presumption. As I said before, volume pot value affects how bright or dark your pickups are. It is personal preference. I prefer lower-value pots in my guitars. Some people prefer high-value pots. You can't possibly make such a sweeping generalization that 300k pots are no good. Maybe they're no good to you, but don't give people advice based on your personal taste and spout it off as fact. It is misleading..

 

 

I didn't say that 300K pots were no good, but you obviously haven't read about or worked on the volume of guitars that I have where people came with it in their head that their Gibson was too dark and muddy and needed a pickup swap and were astounded that a set of good 500k pots and decent caps made.....ymmv

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

 

Whether the author is clumsy with the English language or not, the article says the brand of guitar doesn't matter but the brand of tuners does.

 

 

I think if you look at the doc it's says that a "detail" as in something you may wish to consider once the construction, pickups and wiring is as should be, at least that's the way I read it.