Members harryevan Posted July 16, 2015 Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 I see a lot of descriptions about LOUD X watt amps and quiet X watt amps. The discussions usually involve VOX's and similar amps that were designated "Class A" amps versus Fenders and similar amps that were designated "Class A/B" amps. So, from the "old days" (60's and 70's - and we're talking tubes here, but solid state probably figures in, too) a 30 watt Class A amp was roughly equivalent to a 100 watt Class A/B amp. Does this still hold true? I know there are hybrids with solid state preamps or modeling to solid state or tube power amps that will make the question a little more complex. Does anyone have the correct info to put a comparison chart together to show what, in the Class A/B world for 10, 15, 30, 45, 60 and 100 watt amps equates to in the Class A world amps, maybe adding in a solid state column, so we can all be on the same page? harryevan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 16, 2015 Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 Power ratings are more about headroom than received loudness. Specifically how much volume an amp will make before it starts distorting and clipping. There's also the issue of speaker efficiency and frequency response to consider. On top of all that, perceived volume is logrythmic and not a linear function so an amp has to be 10 times more powerful to get a doubling of perceived volume. For example to double the volume of a 10 watt amp you'll need a 100 watt amp. Everything else being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 16, 2015 Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 Allot of info out there dealing with amp classifications is posted by people who have no technical background and allot of their opinions can be misleading or outright false. Purely Class A amps are usually limited to low wattage practice amps. They run on a single power tube and are called single ended amps and are much lower in wattage then any AB amp. Less then half the tubes wattage can be utilized because of their inefficiency. Fender Champ (tweed, blackface, silverface), Vox AC4, Gibson GA-8, Kalamazoo Model 1, Wards Airline GDR-9012A, Silvertone 1481, and plenty of other similar practice, student, or just plain cheapo amps are most definitely class A amps. Most are only produce a few watts at best. They can sound good when high quality components are used but since many of these amps are budget builds they are often built with low grade caps, transformers, pots etc. Some can hum badly with stock caps and some even have ungrounded plugs which can be a shock hazard. High fidelity Class A is often found in mic preamps where they can produce fast transients. They build them with high quality components and often cost thousands. There are a few dual single ended amps like the Gibson but the two tubes basically act as one. The efficiency and punch is increased a small amount but the wattage isn't any higher with tubes running in parallel like that. The amps people often mistake as class A amps are actually "Cathode Biased" AB push pull amps. These are your Vox AC30 type amps that can be fairly loud and have a distinct tone to them. What gives them their unique tone is hot Cathode biasing, not Class A. Hot biased tubes do have short lifespan. The vintage Voxes used to melt down regularly to the point people got tired of hauling them into the shop for repair so they moved to something else. Some of these meltdowns were caused by poor quality components, failures to replace tubes, Poor quality assembly, cathode biasing with no negative feedback loop. The tone of those amps were more a factor of the tube types, tone stacks, and cathode biasing then amp classification. The classification has more to do with the power amp then the preamp section in any case. Class A actually saturates less then AB and are much less efficient. AB combines two tubes so one tube amplifies for the positive side of the signal and the other amplifies for the Negative side in a push pull configuration. So long as the tubes are a matched pair and are evenly biased, the positive and negative sides of the wave will be mirror images. The big thing is the amps are much more efficient so this is what actually gives you loud amps. Just about all tube guitar amps use A/B configurations of one type or another. Only your small wattage amps use class A and since few power tubes can produce more then 25~35W, a Class A setup using one of those tubes will always be less then half. A 6L6 is rated for 25W in most cases. In a single ended amp, the tube is biased in the center and cannot turn completely off or saturate at the high end. This means you have to create a positive and negative swing on that tubes amplification curve without having the tube shut off or over saturate. so you may get 10W max with 2 watts headroom to prevent clipping. If you go higher the tube shuts off and motorboats or saturates on half the waveform. This is less efficient then using the tube in a push pull design where the tube actually turns off and you can use the full 25W on one side of the wave form and a full 25W on the other half. Single ended amps waste some of the wattage possible just keeping the tube biased. The other items is which tubes sound best in single sided amps. 6V6 tubes are common but their solo wattage is even less then common push pull tubes. Not all push pull tubes sound good run single ended so again, you're limited in wattage to the tubes available. One of the other problems with single ended amps is they tend to be noisy. Not all, but they don't have the noise cancelling ability of a push/ pull amplifier so depending on the preamp and power tube used, it can be a challenge to get rid of heater hum and other anomalies like the tube being biased at 50% on all the time. AB tubes are Off when they aren't in use so the background noise is usually negligible in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted July 16, 2015 Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 Class A basically means that the tube is biased so that the entire wave is amplified by the tube instead of just a part of the wave form. You can have two tubes in "push/pull" and also have it in class A....but since both tubes would be amplifying the entire waveform, there would be really no advantage to them being set up this way in push/pull over being set up in parallel. It would also be lower wattage overall compared to A/B push/pull. Class A status is usually reserved for small budget amps with a single power tube. Since an amp with only one power tube would positively HAVE to amplify a signal's entire wave form. You can be certain that all amps with a single power tube are class A. Things get more complicated when there is more than one power tube, because in those situations you have to look at bias to determine whether amps with more than one power tube are class A, class A/B or class B. Class A is less efficient and eats up power tubes. It's more economical in the sense that the output transformer doesn't need to be as beefy with class A and with of course if it's a one-power-tube amp, you don't need as beefy a power transformer and fewer components. So why all the fuss? Some people believe class A creates better harmonics and distortion than class A/B. Personally I can't hear it. Lots of tube amps working in class A/B sound great. Like all those vintage Fender amps with more than one power tube. They sound great. Some people hear "class A" and just assume this means something better. Amp marketing companies fan the flame of this hype and advertise amps that are class A/B as "class A" to get people to buy their amps and this adds to the confusion. One amp builder making amps that are truly class A using lots of power tubes (but relatively low wattage) Is Alessandro.His "Blue Tick" amp uses FOUR 6V6 tubes and puts out a modest 20 watts....but it's pure class A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I see a lot of descriptions about LOUD X watt amps and quiet X watt amps. The discussions usually involve VOX's and similar amps that were designated "Class A" amps versus Fenders and similar amps that were designated "Class A/B" amps. So, from the "old days" (60's and 70's - and we're talking tubes here, but solid state probably figures in, too) a 30 watt Class A amp was roughly equivalent to a 100 watt Class A/B amp. Does this still hold true? I know there are hybrids with solid state preamps or modeling to solid state or tube power amps that will make the question a little more complex. Does anyone have the correct info to put a comparison chart together to show what, in the Class A/B world for 10, 15, 30, 45, 60 and 100 watt amps equates to in the Class A world amps, maybe adding in a solid state column, so we can all be on the same page? harryevan If one amp is biased hotter than another it can generate more wattage, and that can make a difference in terms of loudness, but as often as not, what makes one 20W amp seem "louder" than another 20W amp is a difference in speaker efficiency. Wattage is only part of the "loudness" equation. If one amp has a speaker with a 91dB @ 1 Watt / 1 meter rating in it, and the other has a speaker with a 101dB @ 1 Watt / 1 meter rating and you hit each of them with one watt of power, the second amp will be subjectively "twice as loud" as the first amp, even though they have the same power rating. Decibels are logarithmic - a 1dB change is about the limit of what most people can hear in terms of minimum level differences, and it takes about a 10dB increase in SPL to be perceived as being "twice as loud"; the efficiency of speakers can have a huge influence on perceived loudness - wattage has to increase dramatically to have a similar effect. Check the link above for more details on wattage and loudness. All other things being equal, a 50W amp isn't going to sound twice as loud as a 25W amp - only a few dB louder - enough to be noticeable, but not enough for a doubling in perceived volume level. Let's not forget that sometimes companies play a bit fast and loose with their power ratings too. Just because Amp X's manufacturer says it's a "20W amp" doesn't mean they're measuring that the same way as Company B measures and rates their amps... As far as Class A vs Class AB, it's all about efficiency. A true single-ended Class A amp uses its tube to amplify the positive and negative parts of the input cycle / waveform, while Class AB amps are more efficient, and use multiple tubes, with half the tube compliment being used on the positive and the other half on the negative half of the cycle. Class A is often considered to be "sweeter sounding" with less distortion and slightly better high frequency performance, but you're usually not going to find a really high-powered Class A amp due to the limitation of the tubes. But it's really a myth that a Class A amp of a given wattage is going to be "louder" than a Class AB amp of the same wattage. Again, the differences in speakers are far more likely to be the reason one amp of a given wattage is perceived as being louder than another amp of the same wattage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yeah, I cringed as I hit send, knowing I would get these answers. I know that a Class A amp is constantly on and a Class AB amp is "push /pull", one side of the pair is on, while the other is off and vice-versa ad nauseum. I knew it was going to get technical, and hopefully correct. But there is a difference at one's ear and comparing a Class A amp to a Class A/B amp of the same wattage, side by side will render the programme differently to the human listening. And that difference is what I'm getting at. Let's ignore money and try to keep the onboard features to a minimum and line up say a Matchless Chieftain, a Vox AC30, a Fender Twin Reverb, an Ampeg V-4, a Sears Silvertone 100 watt (I can't remember the model of that 4X6L6 beauty) and a 100 watt Marshall. Run them all through identical speaker cabinets at similar settings with the same, recorded input at similar settings (7 across the board). Ignoring apples and oranges, what do you get in terms of volume differences? And do the same with the lesser models in those lines. Just in simple terms, that might help some of the younger players get by the hype, and some of us older guys past the bull{censored} as we aproach senility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 16, 2015 Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 Volume only? There's still to basic answers. Perceived volume and actual volume. Actual volume is simple. Buy a $25db meter and test them. You'll get varying amounts of volume depending on what the tone stacks pass at 7. I've owned 5 of the amps you mentioned and each sounds different at those settings. I wouldn't even want to guess what the actual loudness is because the bass level is what puts out the highest DB amount. If you're talking about perceived volume (as in hot sounding) you'll get dozens of answers, many based on whatever speakers they were using. The best I can do for you is tell you the similarities. I'd put the Twin and Silverstone together. I've often heard these amps used together and since the circuits are similar and they often used similar speakers I'd see these amps being similar. Ampeg V4 is a monster in comparison to the others. Its got clean tone nearly all the way up and is much louder then other amps rated at 100W. The difference is, if you compare it to a Marshall, its power is full frequency ranged, a Marshall on the other hand tends to push the upper mids allot harder then an ampeg so a Marshall is more focused at being loud in the upper mids and the Ampeg is more full frequency loud. Bass frequencies push the DB scale way plus strong bass is perceived as being louder. The Matchless and Vox are lower wattage amps so the actual loudness will be lower. The Matchless may have higher perceived volume because its got a rectifier tube which give the amp some sag and compression which people perceive as sounding loud. The Vox has hot biasing so it too has higher perceived loudness in comparison to a similar Fender type amp of the same wattage. Out of the bunch, the Twin may be the tamest sounding. Silvertone Brownest, Ampeg Plushest, Marshall Edgiest, Vox the Janglest, The Matchless, hottest. If these amps were recorded and played back at the same volume I think that's what most would perceive. Actual loudness at those settings like I said is tough. If I were to guess, 1. Ampeg, 2. Marshall, 3. Twin, 4. Silvertone, 5. Matchless, 6. Vox. Its a toss up on the Twin vs Silvertone. You wont find a new Silvertone and unless its rebuilt from scratch and has all its caps replaced especially the ones in the signal path. If it was brand new, it may be louder then the Fender because the signal path has less circuitry and therefore less loss. All of this is highly subjective however. If all of these amps have different tubes, biased at different levels, all my opinions can be drastically different. Same thing with the speakers. Whats good for one amp may make that one amp sound great at high volumes and another amp fart out badly. That's why I cant get too simplistic in a thread like this. There are just "way" to many mitigating factors involved, and actual loudness is one of the least important on my list. I actually prefer it that way. Why would anyone want one amp to sound like another or have similar characteristics. Choice is a good thing. Loudness today is one of the least important items especially given the trend with clubs putting in DB meters to throttle safe volume levels, I see it as something that will be around awhile. Smaller is easier too so you cant blame guys using smaller wattage amps with much louder speakers then what were available when several of the amps you listed were designed. Plus, anything that's not loud enough can easily be miced by the lower cost PA gear available today. Anything too loud usually cant be run at all, at home or in clubs without major consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 16, 2015 I think it will always be perceived, especially given the hype. I know it's apples and oranges, but when you're out in the sticks, trying to figure out if a given amp is even worth the gas to go exploring and you only have reviews, online magazine raves and advertising to go on, it's very difficult. Like I said in the other topic you're helping with, thank you very much, the Twin was lovely, but at 100 pounds and the fact that, these days, you just don't need (or get) to turn it up, it becomes impracticable. So on some perceived basis, is a VOX AC15 comparable to the Fender 15-watt combo with the controls set to (the heart of the sun!) 7 across the board with similar speakers, or maybe it Fender's 30-watt amp? If you can't trust the specs and you can't trust the hype, how dissappointing can it be to cough up $500, wait two weeks, get to practice and find out it can't keep up with the level of the band, even though everything said it would? Specs really don't help. I remember an EMC powered desk in 1973 that was rated at some ungodly output wattage, but really only had a couple of hundred watt amps, solid state at that - if you were to be foolish enough to buy their "premium" package with 16 of their cabinets, it was semantically correct that you had 1600 watts going on - they were all in parallel and some "engineer" did the math... that was a hard one to recover from. My HRD sounded great with the volume set at 2 or 3 in the store, but didn't really get any louder past that. So I replaced V1 with a 12AU7 for quite a bit less gain and now it sounds great at 5 or 6 and still has some to go. But what does it compare to? And then there is solid state. The only thing I can say there is that transistors are to tubes as fortrel polyester is to velvet. harryevan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 17, 2015 Members Share Posted July 17, 2015 Manufactures normally rate their wattage for clean undistorted sound. With most solid state amps that can mean all controls on max.With tube amps that can mean the volume is cranked 1/2 way up and you still have another 30~40% gain of driven sound. Since guitarists push amps to be driven, he'll use that driven sound so the amp will be louder then a SS amp of the same RMS wattage. In my setup I run a pair of amps. I use a Marshall Valvestate 100w head on a 1960 4X12" bottom. The Marshall's volume sweet spot on that cab is around 4~5 on that cab. I also run a 67 Blackface Bassman head on a 4X10 cab being run on 3~4 and the two volumes on the cabs match. I know these settings are a match because I use a pair of matching mics and monitor the Recording volumes of the two and tweak the volumes on the amps to match. From a distance the larger cab has more bass response and it seems a little louder because the cabs angled up at the ears. If I swap the heads on the cabs and leave the Tube heads volume set for 3~4, I have to crank the Marshalls volume up to about 7 to match the Bassman. This reveals two things. The Bassman 50W head is a very loud tube amp. Its clean range is between 0 and 6 which means its putting out the full 50W by the time its cranked 1/2 way up. run on #3 its likely putting out about 30W. The 100w SS head is double the wattage and its range is fairly linear. Run on 4 its putting out about the same db level as the Bassman. The other thing is when I switch cabs, I have to run the Marshall up louder to match the Bassman. The 4X10 has Jensen Alnico speakers which sound great but aren't nearly as efficient as the 4X12' Celestin's I have in the other cab. As Phil said before, speakers SPL ratings make a huge difference in how loud an amp will be. A difference between a 95db and a 105db speaker can be "double" the volume. Wattage is a deceiving factor when you're comparing amps. Its a power consumption measurement. If all speakers were the same then you could use it as a guideline comparing amps like many do, but given the fact most speakers have an efficiency rating that can range between 90db for a vintage guitar speaker and as high as 115db with some of the newer ones available now, its makes any judgments of volume based on wattage useless. In essence judging an amps head without considering the speakers is only half the story. Add to that manufacturers often install budget speakers in combos, its often hard to judge the heads full potential by those speakers. The tone may be OK, but maximum volume possible from that head may have vast untapped resources available. Many popular combo amps you see being used by major artists aren't running stock speakers. Given the huge numbers of low cost customized choices available, you can easily take a small 15w amp and exceed the volume levels of a 100w amp running stock speakers. This is one reason many guitarists are getting away with using low wattage light weight amps. The volume you need is normally based around the Acoustic drummer. His volume is based on the size of the drums and how hard he hits them. Being able to match his hardest hits with some additional headroom, usually in the driven ranges is all a guitarist normally needs.You can go with something that's overkill and run it lower live but you do have issues using it for practice at home or an apartment. My center of the road amp for Rehearsal, Live, Practice is usually in the 30W range. I have a 15w amp for practice and it barely keeps up with a drummer when its cranked. Its sounds small too. 25~30w is about ideal. I'd definitely have to mic it in a large band live but I'd at least have enough stage volume where I don't have to rely on the monitor feed. I normally use 50, 65, 100, and 200w heads of varying types in my studio recording. My situation is unique however. My studio is sound proofed and has practically no reflection. Sound doesn't bounce around in there and all you hear is the sound coming direct from a speaker like you do playing outside without walls. Your comment about the PA gear is common. PA speakers aren't normally High SPL and they also have crossovers which consume allot of power. The speakers in 2 way cabs are chosen for fidelity and for long throw dispersion. you may not be able to fully judge them unless you're a good 25" away of more. Some Guitar cabs can disperse a fair distance but most are designed to sound best within 10~15' or the distance between the amp and mic.We also tend to dial up tones with our ears that sound best at that short distance. Add to that we may dial up highly compressed sound in a small room that sound wonderful practicing, but the minute we walk onto a large room or stage where we need to fill the room, we sound like an ant in the world of giants. Room acoustics play a huge role in matching your amps tone and volume. Over the years I've found the best solution is to use different amps for different rooms. I got the big stuff for the big rooms, medium for medium and small for small. This way I'm not having to constantly tweak all my setting to make a small amp sound big or a big amps sound small. Its more expensive of course to own several amps vs just one but it does work best. If you only have one head then having different cabs is an option. Maybe a single speaker for small rehearsals, a larger cab with multiple speakers for larger gigs. Some also use a Hot Plate to attenuate the volume down to acceptable levels. This is cool for tube heads because you can get most of the tube drive (minus the speaker drive). You could also use a low SPL speaker to do this. I bought a pair of high wattage low SPL 10"s I stuck in a cab. I can run my largest heads on it and still be able to talk over the volume it produces. There's are tons of way to skin a cat here depending on what you specifically need. That's why specifics are important in avoiding poor choices, and they also help when your best choices need additional help to get you where you want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted July 17, 2015 Members Share Posted July 17, 2015 it depends all on how loud you need, and what sound you are after? if you are in a punk band with a loud drummer and loud bass a 100W marshall would be the best to compete, but chance are high that the landlord of the rehearsal space might not like you that much anymore if you need (very) loud and clean you can't go wrong with a twin or an AC30 but here i'm talking about ear hurting loudness my setup currently consists of a BYOC tweed royal which is a switchable champ (class a SE 6W) and tweed deluxe (class AB push pull 12w) clone with a 12" celestion vintage30 speaker and a laney lc15r (similar to an ac15) with an 10" speaker in stereo the tweet royal is set to 6W but still cause of the "better" speaker its much louder than the 15W laney between the 12w and 6w setting there is not much perceived volume difference, but at 6w there is less clean headroom and it breaks up earlier. we have a loud drummer, keys and bass with two singer, if the singer can't hear themselves anymore and we can't turn the pa up because of mic feedback, we are too loud. we are still playing loud, but my current setup not even turned up to 3/4 full (cause then they complain i'm too loud) is really full sufficient. key is the good speaker. e.g. the vintage 30 has 100db as efficiency rating first i had put in a jenson P12R to make it more original, its rating is 93db i guess and it was really not loud and when i turned the amp up the speaker began farting, changing it for the celestion made this amp really great and the position of the amp. an amp stand could help wonders to a small amp not standing on the floor and actually it will be too loud when it points to the ears and not the floor... with a good speaker you can play with a 15w amp easily in a very loud band, which 15W amp you should get depends on which sound you are after and not the volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks, everyone, and I appreciate it. But what I'm getting at is, in his day of online shopping, "We don't have one, but I can order that for you" and all the hype that comes from manufacturers via the media and endorsements, you can't just go to the NAMM shows or even walk into your favorite guitar store - if you're lucky to live in a place large enough for a selection - and check out amps like we used to. I'm in my 60's and I'm not only thinking of my next purchase, but all the players new to the exciting game of "my new amplifier". I've been burned before, thanks, and I hate to see good, young players get discouraged by sinking way too much into something that doesn't do what they need, but the hype and the specs said it would. It's probably easier to buy a car - but you wouldn't say a Chevy Impala is comparable to a Mini Cooper just because they both have seating for four. This started wit a discussion on a forum about comparing a Vox AC15 to a Fender Princeton (I think) with both rated at 15 watts output, and of course the Vox was "LOUD" in comparison. I'm sure it was. I was hoping this was the forum to possibly create some guidance. Doesn't have to be a science lesson or a crowing session. Just give folks an idea what compare to what. I'm pretty sure that , in some very general way, a Fender Twin is relatively comparable to a Matchless Chieftain, a Vox AC-30, or a 100 watt Marshall and that Soldano, Rivera, Dr. Z, Orange, VHT, Bugera and even the brilliant Mr. Dumble have an amp that is roughly comparable (if you had the time and money to find a $60,000 Dumble, you probably have hired someone to help you choose and you're not reading this) at some very general level. Some of us can't layout $700 bucks to find out the amp won't do it and move on to the next amp. Taht's all I'm asking about here. Yes there are too many variable to make detailed comparisons - ain't talking about details. But if it were your first time out and you were looking for an amp that gives you the tone you need for a four-piece classic rock band or country pop in a small bar, a Twin or a Marshall Stack is too much these days, but, if you're playing all out punk at at some event where there are no limits, it would do the trick. The AC-15 might do for the classic rock scenario, maybe not the 15-watt Fender - I don't know, but that's what I'm getting at here. GENERAL comparisons to begin one's search, without the hype or reviews like "when we ran the Squire Stratocaster through the Dumble, it sounded like the walls of Jericho were about to come down." (I'm sure I could short the tip of the cord with my fingers and a Dumble would sound like that). Then let folks compare bells whistles and price tags. And either go in search of the amp to try it or "I can order one for you..." Get it? KISS! harryevan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Unless you run all the amps into the same speakers and use two tools simultaneously - an oscilloscope to measure what the amp is actually doing in terms of output power and distortion, and a SPL meter to measure what the actual sound pressure levels are, you're not going to be able to accurately compare anything. Just setting all the amps to "10" or "the same settings" is meaningless. In the vast majority of these sorts of comparisons, those things are not done - making it a classic case of "apples vs oranges" and leading to all sorts of mistaken assumptions and misconceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 This started wit a discussion on a forum about comparing a Vox AC15 to a Fender Princeton (I think) with both rated at 15 watts output, and of course the Vox was "LOUD" in comparison. I'm sure it was. I was hoping this was the forum to possibly create some guidance. I actually own a Princeton, and a Vox AC15. Since I have a SPL meter, I could do some measurements, but because I don't have an o-scope here, not all the ones we'd need to do a fair comparison... and there's a really major fire near my house right now (with cars burning on the freeway...) so I'm a bit distracted at the moment... Oh, and FWIW, for years the Princeton was considered a 12W amp - it's only been fairly recently that Fender has started referring to it as a 15W amp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 18, 2015 Thanks, Phil, but I don't seem to be getting through, maybe it's the painkillers for my newly broken ankle, maybe I just don't write as well as I used to. I was hoping to cut through the hype. It wasn't just the SPL of an AC15 versus a Princeton, it's the idea of letting us know what's practical and what's not in a variety of general situations. More like, are you gigging with either amp? can you get the tone you want at a volume that fits in well with the rest of the band? Prices aren't that much of a concern, per se, but investing in an amp is a big deal for budding guitarists and I know I would have appreciated some guidance way back then when all you saw were Fender Twins and Marshall full stacks on television (we didn't have the internet, remember?). Maybe you got a reference, like John Sebastian's running down his Champ on a live album. We've all been in the various music stores: five salesmen on the phones, somebody in the back wailing away on a Marshall stack with the latest butt-rocker guitar while you're trying to get an idea of what will do for you for the money you have. Or maybe you've waded through all the ads and reviews and waltzed in only to have a salesman tell you, " We carry that brand, but we don't have one of that model in the store. I can order you one..." I was hoping for what might be described as a matrix of comparable amps - Amp A - Amp B and Amp C are quite similar (that A has a shimmer knob, but B and C only have reverb is beside the point), While Amps D, E, and F are not quite on a level with A, B and C, and so on. I only used the Chieftain and the Dumble as examples, and I'm not looking for a specific amp at this moment, but it would be nice to know, just for instance, what's comparable to my Hot Rod DeLuxe, what's beefier and really over the top for bar gigging, what's a little less beefy, but would still hold up to the drummer in a classic-rock bar-band without the assistance of sound reinforcement, what definetely won't do it. Maybe which are tubed amps, which are hybrids, which are solid state, but that would come out in the research. A buyers guide, that's not paid for by the manufacturers. Consume Reports won't get it. Maybe I'm not in the right forum. By the way, since you're an administrator, why is this eidt window so large, yet it only displays four and a half lines at a time? I don't seem to be able to find a setting for that one. harryevan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members James Clausen Posted July 18, 2015 Members Share Posted July 18, 2015 So if you are asking which is best, the answer is "yes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 18, 2015 And the reply is, "Sorry kids, I tried. You'll just have to keep throwing money at it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 20, 2015 Members Share Posted July 20, 2015 I've been burned before, thanks, and I hate to see good, young players get discouraged by sinking way too much into something that doesn't do what they need, but the hype and the specs said it would. I understand what you're talking about here. There aren't allot of posters on this site, but the ones who do post, try and give either specific advice to specific questions or general advice that fits most situations. I'd find it difficult to give specific advice to anyone without some idea of their needs and wants are. Best method of course being able to actually hear what they are currently using as they play with their band. This way I'd base my advice on what I'm hearing, not by what's popular or what some specs say. Even that would require additional input from the player. I'd want to have some kind of idea on what kind of sound he'd like to have before getting specific. Beyond that would be how much he could afford. I'd then target my advice based on my experience and his needs. You don't often get to do this with guitarists however. Most are proud of what they own and don't even like being told that can make improvements. Many have Egos and have a knee jerk reaction to any advice ad being criticism. Most who do gig with other bands get to hear other gear in action. Going to clubs or small concerts lets you get up close and see what others use too. This is the way most get some idea of what sounds good and provides a basis for their own upgrades. I know that's how I learned and it the long run its really not a bad method. Forums help as do many other sources. One piece of advice I usually include is for others to not only check out the good things about a piece of gear but to also dig up all the dirt they can find on gear. The internet is loaded with people trying to sell you stuff and will tell you anything you want to hear. Most people don't look for the other stuff until they do have problems. As with your analogy about buying cars, many will impulse buy and get burned. Others who have been burned, may instead build a list based on their budget, then build a list of positives and negatives and visit sites that give honest comparisons consumers reports/digest before they pull the trigger. This is a little more difficult when it comes to amps, but you can use Google effective in many cases just by typing "Problem With" before the model amp. If you find dozens of pages with problems, you may want to look deeper. If you find nothing, then its either new, Unpopular or doesn't have allot of issues. Not sure if you've visited this site, but its a good to visit if you're looking for specific major artists rigs. They range from low tech amp guitar and maybe a pedal or two, to the most sophisticated rigs out there. Because so much of the artists sounds rely on external effects now, just knowing what amp may be good, may not be nearly as important as many think when all the other factors involved in getting a guitarists signature tone. Add to that amps that have built in cab and head emulation, it becomes very difficult to give definitive advice on what might work for any one player because there are many amps that will do similar things. http://www.guitargeek.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harryevan Posted July 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2015 I appreciate the wisdom. The link helps, too. I've been watching Premier Guitar's Rig Rundowns, but most of them are unattainable at my "level". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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