Members akoszuta Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 i'm starting to experiment with compression a little bit and recently picked up a few used DBX 166XL's to add to my rig. i've read the manual, read the dbx compression tutorial, and plenty of other documentation on the subject. however, IMO nothing really compares to real-life experience. so that's why i'm here. i understand the theory behind compression, but i want to ask you guys what really works "in the field". there's a big difference between grasping a concept and putting it to use effectively! while i understand that settings will vary from person to person, instrument to instrument, room to to room, i'm interested to learn what others use as a "starting point" to get me in the same ballpark. you probably already know what a DBX 166XL looks like, but here it is again for easy reference: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 First thing you have to ask yourself is "what am I trying to fix?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chaff67 Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 The "starting point" you're asking about is really dependent upon what you are using the compression for. What is it you are trying to fix? Is it for vocals, bass, guitar or drums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akoszuta Posted September 3, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 all of the above. i have a live sound rig and would like to use these to clean up drums, guitar, vocals, maybe bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 clean up drums, guitar, vocals, maybe bass. How many did you get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akoszuta Posted September 3, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 4 units. so 8 channels. somebody was liquidating their system so i essentially bought them in "bulk". it was a good deal, so i figured it would be good time to start experimenting with compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted September 3, 2011 Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 all of the above. i have a live sound rig and would like to use these to clean up drums, guitar, vocals, maybe bass. Just to explain.... Some people compress first, and then ask questions later. Others use compression as a means to fix something (or as an effect). Using compression the wrong way can easily cause instruments to pump, create feedback problems (long story) and generally squash the life out of your mix. So that's why we are asking, what is it you're trying to fix? Do you have singers that go from a whisper to a scream. Are there bass players that are popping and snapping overtime? What you're really saying is "I just bought a hammer, where should I use it". So if you can be a little more specific, hopefully you can get some answers. Having said that, IMO when it comes to compression, less is better - you generally don't want to hear the compressor working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akoszuta Posted September 3, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 3, 2011 shaster - i understand the theory behind it, even the way it could cause feedback (believe it or not). i'm just looking for real world examples i guess. how other people use these devices, what problems they solve and how they solve them. so, in that sense it really is a rather vague question, but i'm looking for specific answers. it's kind of an open-ended discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted September 4, 2011 Members Share Posted September 4, 2011 OK here's a few clues and things to look for. 1) Don't try to fix drasticly fluctuating volume (like different patches in a guitar processor or a keyboard that aren't level matched) with a compressor. That's not what it's made for and it doesn't really work well for that. Unfortunatly you either have to ride the fader or educate the player (the first is more expedient but if possible the latter is preferable). 2) Sort of what some of the other guys have been saying. Don't compress something just because you have it available. Music should be dynamic. As long as the performers are aware of it, let them do their job. 3) My opinion of compression is that it's for controling those occasional, single note blasts that will stick out like a sore thumb in your mix. Remember it only takes one Too loud" note to make someone think that the whole mix is too loud for the rest of the night. Depending on the style, musician and source you will set different ratios and attack times (release times IMO aren't as important). There's a fine line between leveling out your mix and squashing it dead. I've found that most factory presets in digital library's (I know this isn't what you have) set the attack time too short for my tastes. If you set it too short you will kill that first transient edge of the note and will loose the "punch" that makes live music sound live. Don't have the signal being compressed all of the time (less is more - a rule of thumb would be 30% of the time is a maximum - there are always exceptions :-). Start at 2:1 or 3:1 and increase only if really needed. I usualy set vocal & woodwind attack times somewhere between 14ms & 20ms. I usualy compress bass with a higher ratio but don't set the attack time short here (try 30+ ms) as the compressor can actualy ride the waveform and make for some really funky distortion (trying to compress each wave peak - ick). That's my tips of the day. You may find something else works for what you're doing. As you said "there's a big difference between grasping a concept and putting it to use effectively". Experiment and have fun (you can always hit the bypass button :-) cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akoszuta Posted September 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 thanks J.R. ! this is the kind of information i'm looking for here. i definitely agree with you that live music should sound "live" and be full of dynamics. you don't want it to be cold and sterile, but like you said, one stray note and people sour on the mix quickly! i don't have a pressing need for compression right now as my customers have all been very happy. i'm just trying to learn about it BEFORE it becomes a need. that way i'll have one more tool at my disposal for correcting problems as they arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 i find i use the most cockamamie settings on vocals and bass, the things that can easily fall out of an otherwise good mix when you have less than consistent folks on stage. i dont have any real "rules" on any of this but for vox (if band unknown to me) i start with 4:1 and threshold at "0" and start from there. sometimes i'll pull nothing, other times it gets real serious reduction. i change the ratio to fit the singer. examples: i got one guy who i run infinity:1 and he will never go into reduction except for the few times a night he does this "yell" type thing. he will light up every reduction light when he does this, and he used to clip the channel before i did this. another guy sings very softly and loudly. he gets a lot of reduction but at a lower ratio, 2:1 and this works for him. a guy in the best local band for many, many miles is so rock solid i can get by without a compressor on his vox. when i have the option i run him at 4:1 and pull off maybe 3db once or twice a night. i mixed a young woman who had a nice voice but got easily lost. i ran her at a really low ratio and pulled off 30db according to my presonus. it wasnt a limited type sound but more of a spicey edgey sound that popped her vox out of the mix. i favor valley comps and my presonus for vox, but also i am happy to use dbx comps. i like to run bass through a dbx 163 (older than dirt). an otherwise colorful and crazy limiter, sounds awesome on bass and guitar. horrible on congas ( i tried it, dont bother). i like the old skool 166 on kick snare more than i like the new 166xl. i think the 166xl is probably a better comp/limiter but the old one sounds weird. i like the old one cuz it sound weird. i'm going to be very sad when it breaks. i've never met a behringer comp i liked, not one except maybe for the german composer. i had one of those in the mid nineties when they cost $200 or more and one of the output jacks broke. i gave it away a few years ago to some noob. do i have a point? compressors are like paint brushes. they are all basically the same but if you paint you have many, many brushes (that are the same mostly) but favor different ones for different paints on different materials. i have a lot of paint brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 i like to run bass through a dbx 163 (older than dirt). an otherwise colorful and crazy limiter, sounds awesome on bass and guitar.Well damn, I forgot I have one of those (you meant the 163X, right ?) - that would be perfect for the main project I'm playing with. Kinda seems wrong to run first into a bodypack with compression, then a receiver with expansion, and then compress it again though . Hmm... I wonder if I could hack the expander to not work on the high end? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 NOT THE 163X. i do like the 160x, ive never used a 163x. this one: i have two, i got them for free because someone didnt know what they were. what an idiot. they are crazy and colorful and totally unstable. and i love them. they are the ONLY limiter that i use on death metal guitars, and they WORK on that! actual rack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 NOT THE 163X.I think the only difference is that the "X" has a high impedance input on the front panel for instruments so you don't need a preamp with them. Maybe I should rack up the 163X with my wireless - but dunno where I'm going to put it as I have no amp to put it up on? Maybe I need a couple of them fake SVT cabs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 interesting about the X, is it the same for all the X series dbx? the 160a and 160x appear to be the same except for the input. if i had to describe the 163 any further, i would equate it to a frying pan sitting on your stove at around 1700F. totally out of control, will burn the {censored} out of anything it comes into contact with, somewhat noisier than one would think it should be when its working, and just exactly what you need when you want to flash fry a buffalo in ten seconds. that and it sounds neato on bass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Yah, at one time they were highly prized amongst bass players. No longer "the next great thing" though . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 ones i have must be over 30 years old. its amazing they work anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 i mixed a young woman who had a nice voice but got easily lost. i ran her at a really low ratio and pulled off 30db according to my presonus. it wasnt a limited type sound but more of a spicey edgey sound that popped her vox out of the mix. 30dB of gain reduction? I don't think I have seen a system that had 30 dB of stability margin... I would expect that channel take off like a bat outta hell whenever she didn't sing and that 30dB gets added back. What console do you have? Are the inserts pre or post monitor sends? I can't see how post would work, especially with stability margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 its whatever the last GR light is on my acp22, maybe its 20 something. board was GL2200, no monitors from that board on that day in that location. different monitor board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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