Speakers for vocals in a rehearsal room

[MAndrade]

Hello! If im at the wrong area for topics, please let me know. I have a question, and here it goes.

 

I've searched on the internet about it, and I could not find an answer. I want to place 2 speakers, 12'' 150 watts each to a rehearsal room and don't know where to position them. They gonna be used for vocals and keyboards only, mostly vocals. It would be better on the ground or on supports above the head? Which high? The room is 16x16 ft. This is a scheme of the room:

 

 

 

 

The question is: what is the best place to put them?

 

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the English.

[davie]

Looks pretty cramped in there. Doesn't look like you have a lot of room to spare, but I would put your vocal PA somewhere where the vocalist can hear him/herself over all the other instruments.

 

I will redirect you to Craig Anderton's Sound forum, maybe people over there can help you.

[MikeRivers]

Experiment. Put the speakers where they work best for you. Don't be afraid to move somebody. You might consider switching the position of the singer and the guitar player who's back by the computer. That way you could point one speaker to cover the keyboardist and singer, and the other to get some vocals and keyboards back toward the bass player so he can hear them over the drums.

 

You might try putting the speakers on the floor, tilted up like "wedge" monitors. It really looks crowded in there, though. Is the scale of the drawing fairly accurate?

[WRGKMC]

16'X16' is small. You don't have allot of options. I know its not the best to have speakers in corners because it magnifies the bass response but that are 12" and may benefit from the boost.

I'd try then in the upper right corner and lower left over the bass amp. This will put the maximum sound in the center of the room.

 

If you wanted, I'd suggest, turning the keyboard 90 degrees towards the door instead of facing the wall, or maybe set it in front or the drums. If its connected to the computer via midi, in front of the drums may make sense. This would free up some wall space where you could move the bass amp out of that corner or one of the guitar amps, and move the bass amp on a flat wall. This way you wouldnt have the bass amp and PA in the same corner and the bass amp will sound better on a flat wall vs the corner.

 

You really have to just try it to find your best mix. If you're going to be recording in there, then you'll want to get some movable barriers to help cut down on the bleed, especially the drums.

An inexpensive lightweight solution I use is Formular. http://sweets.construction.com/swts_content_files/20865/706728.pdf

Its lightweight and you can cut it to various sizes and tape the pieces together with duct tape. When you aren't using it you can fold them up and tuck them away.

The sheets block most of the highs and mids and help isolate the instruments. Bass wont be blocked much, but since most mics have a proximity effect, the bass response

doesn't pick up allot of lows from a distance. You can roll the rest of the lows off mixing if needed.

 

Not all bleed over is bad. If the instruments are properly distanced the bleed over can be in phase and add to the overall tone.

I uses to use heavy barriers around the drums. I started using these lightweight foam and found it was sufficient in keeping the guitar tones out of the lower drum mics.

Overheads condensers are definitely going to be an issue. If you deaden the upper wall in back of the set it may stop some reflective sound from getting into the overheads.

Much of this will depend on how you track. If you record drums independantly, you can leave them open and reflective. If you do a combo or trio playing its a battle against bleed over

while still retaining some decent separation.

[b_f_c_99]

Put one on the floor as a vocal monitor for the drummer, I'll assume you want him to hear whats going on. Put the other on a stand and face it at the vocal mic, everyone else should be able to pick up the vocals from there.

[RoadRanger]

A "normal" stage IME is 16x12 so you should have plenty of room to set up normally. Use your monitors instead of your PA speakers - in a real gig that's what you hear, no?

[MrKnobs]

A "normal" stage IME is 16x12 so you should have plenty of room to set up normally. Use your monitors instead of your PA speakers - in a real gig that's what you hear' date=' no?[/quote']

 

The problem though is that (as you well know) at a gig you have an open room, here you have walls bouncing back the sound at you.

 

It's not complicated, though. You just have to play quietly or use earbuds / headphones for the vocals - or both. Quietly helps with the neighbors too.

 

Give the vocalist his or her own monitor aimed right at their face (or off axis for a super cardioid) as close as possible. However much gain you can get before feedback is determined entirely by the microphone and that's all there is. So if it's not enough, everyone else as to come down if the vocalist won't use headphones.

 

In Austin you just go to Music Lab, use their PA and / or amps (so therefore carry nearly nothing) pay them $20 for a small room and play as loud as you want. In addition to the no loading you get the advantages of:

 

(1) Spilled beer, not your problem

 

(2) Guys you don't know very well wandering around your house.

 

(3) You don't have to be the last one to leave just because it's your house.

 

(4) You can walk away from a bad audtiion with the excuse that the room rental time is up instead of having to talk to the guy for hours before he leaves your house.

 

(5) PA works every time or some dude drags in a new one for you.

 

(6) No cops.

 

(7) Need to buy strings / sticks / drum head / asprin / sandwich / drink / Maalox / vox tube amp they got it.

 

(8) If you have an amazing night and want to record it, just tell the guy at the snack bar / music gear shop that you want to, pay a few more bucks and record right on the spot.

 

(9) You get to drink beer with the guys and the wife has a nice night at home watching a chick flick instead of grinding her teeth at a bunch of hairy strangers tracking up her house and eyeing her jewelry.

 

(10) Did I mention no cops?

 

Terry D.

[MikeRivers]

A very practical solution . . . if you're in Austin.

[RoadRanger]

The problem though is that (as you well know) at a gig you have an open room' date=' here you have walls bouncing back the sound at you.[/quote']Using just floor monitors as I suggested vs setting up the whole PA facing you is much less problematic IME. And $20 for a rehearsal room (is that per hour or for 3 hours or ?) is a great deal. OTOH hereabouts most folks have houses that are far enough apart to not be a problem with noise. Biggest problem is having enough amps to leave one everywhere you play - I have three of my bass amps permanently at some of the rehearsal spots I play at (so far, hoping for #4 this weekend - serious country band ) .

[WRGKMC]

The speakers dont have to be used for tracking and in fact can cause negative bleed over issues. Headphones can eliminate that. If the room is used for practice and recording most bands will want some live vocals to follow without having their ears sweat wearing cans. Having PA speakers to hear playbacks or listen to cover music is another benifit. You can be moving around the room listening to the tunes you plan on playing.

 

Floor monitors do take up critical real estate. A 16X16' room is very cramped and when you have cables and floor boxes, guitar cases, chairs, there may just not be enough room there for a full band with those added. . If there is good powered floor monitors can be a great solution. You'll usually find all the players will want their own. Those spot monitors that fit on a stand may work, but the vocalists will need to use dynamic mics with any speakers being used. Any condensers for vocals either need to have headphones used of dubbed in solo.

 

I often track scratch vocals when playing with a band. So long as they aren't pointed at the drum mics you can usually redo the vocals using a good studio mic and not have the scratch track residue come through. You can often get some good live vocal recordings from the dynamic mics. Playing live often has an energy and artistic performance that just cant be duplicated solo, especially if the band is used to playing out live and has little recording experience.

[JeffLearman]

Here's what I would do: the same thing we did with an 8-member 7-piece band rehearsing in a small space. I put two wedge monitors on the floor, back-to-back, to cover the room the best possible.

 

In your room, I'd point one at the vocalist and one at the drummer, using mono (same signal to both speakers). You'd have to move the guitar pedals a bit, but I doubt your drawing is to scale: a pedalboard 5' long?

 

No matter what you do, it'd be a compromise. Also, I'd use a separate powered speaker for the keyboards if possible, but if someone is mainly on guitar and seconding on keyboards, in the monitors might be good enough.

 

One thing you have dead wrong in your arrangement is that the singer is closer to the guitar amp than the guitarist. If that guitarist is unusual and can play well at a much lower monitor loudness, so it's not too loud for the vocalist, it might work. I see why you have it that way, though.

 

I'm talking about for rehearsal. For tracking, I'd find a studio.

 

Knobs is right about practice rooms, which are great, especially if you can find one that's convenient to most of the band members.

[MrKnobs]

A very practical solution . . . if you're in Austin.

 

I'm guessing most large cities with a lot of musicians have something similar. Even Guitar Center here has rehearsal studios in store.

 

If someone's in a town without them, then another traditional step is the friendly storage locker business. Here there are entire storage locker complexes that advertise themselves as musician friendly. Some even have restrooms, because if not, well..........

 

​If I didn't live in Austin but did live in a medium to large city with a thriving music scene, I'd consider building a rehearsal complex. You can usually get funding assistance from the city arts dept. The ones in Austin are super cheap (as I mentioned) because they're subsidized by the city and also make a sizeable portion of their money renting amps and PA, repair, selling sticks and strings and everything else a dedicated music store might have (with later hours), snacks, drinks, recording your band, gear lockers, etc. All in one set up! $5 aspirin anyone? You'd have to be admitted to a hospital to get a comparable deal!

 

But OK, suppose you just WANT to rehearse your band at your house despite all the horrors of doing so (as I listed in my post above). Then you'd have something set up like I do (and many other musicians in Austin do). I have a small recording studio with my garage converted in the "studio" and using a spare bedroom converted to the control room. Mostly I record other bands ($$$) but sometimes I use it rehearse or record my other bands. Either way, I have the issues the OP mentioned above, and this is how I deal with them.

 

My (former) garage has a large, gear friendly entrance separate from the rest of the house. It's moderately soundproofed, room within a room, (the rest being handled by being on good terms with the nearest neighbors), it's heated and air conditioned, it has drums, amps, and PA left set up at all times. There's a little Behringer mixer on the wall for bands to use strictly for the monitor mixes (I've repaired this board many times, I should put out my shingle as a Behringer repair guy). It's on the wall because it's a little harder to spill beer or throw up horizontally. There are several small amps to choose from, for bass, guitar, or keyboards. Amps are angled up with the assumption that the player will stand in front of them.

 

So there are two mixes, one for the main monitors (which are suspended in the room corners and out of the way) which I think of as side fills, i.e. for everyone to hear. The other mix is for wedges for the singers. With a seasoned band the wedges aren't necessary. There's a breakout box on the wall with headphone feeds for anyone who wants to listen that way instead. Long headphone cables, of course.

 

At a modest volume, there's rarely any problem.

 

Terry D.