Why is getting a divorce so complicated or expensive?

[audioicon]

Is getting a divorce expensive and complicated a message sent by the government telling us not to marry?

It's like getting marry takes two seconds "I do Jonny" then breaking it up takes forever.

 

My brother spent over four grand to get a divorce!

 

Why is it so freaking complicated/expensive? Makes me scared to say I do but rather I don't.

 

Patrick/Icon

[Super 8]

 

Is getting a divorce expensive and complicated a message sent by the government telling us not to marry?

 

 

No, marriage helps build strong stable communities. I can't see any reason for a government to be against that.

 

 

Why is it so freaking complicated/expensive? Makes me scared to say I do but rather I don't.

 

 

It's a good reason to examine yourself and really question whether or not you are sure you want to do this. That goes double where kids are/might be involved. Broken families are not good for kids.

 

My first marriage was a joke. We were divorced only 8 months after we said 'I do', and we were only together for 3 out of the 8 months. That's what I get for marrying a self-centered liar. My gut told me not to do it, but my sense of commitment and love for her won out. Getting out of it was actually pretty cheap. It's the fighting and bickering over who gets what that makes divorces so expensive. We divided stuff up pretty equally (we had dated for 4 years, so we had acquired a few things in that time) and we left the lawyers out of the equation.

 

My second marriage happened only a year and a half later. I felt totally comfortable going into it -even though I had just had a really bad experience with my first marriage-, we've been married for over 13 years, although I feel like I've only met her maybe a few years ago. It still feels fresh.

 

That said, it hasn't always been easy and we've had our struggles. But we've always stayed together, and loved each other and worked though them. A lot of people don't do that. They jump in because they are in love with the feeling of romance, and they later disappointed when they find that those feelings don't last. The excitement does end, but it's replaced gradually with a familiarity and an intimacy that no one else can share with that person.

I find it to be very worth while.

[philbo]

 

Is getting a divorce expensive and complicated a message sent by the government telling us not to marry? It's like getting marry takes two seconds "I do Jonny" then breaking it up takes forever. My brother spent over four grand to get a divorce! Why is it so freaking complicated/expensive? Makes me scared to say I do but rather I don't. Patrick/Icon

 

 

 

Wow, he got off pretty cheaply!!! Lucky guy!

The legal fees are usually a very small fraction of the total property settlement - - tho I suppose that depends on individual circumstances...

 

I feel that it would be really really good, if the government HAS to meddle with marriage at all, that it require anyone who wants to marry must post a $10000 escrow account. These funds would stay in an account collecting interest until the couple divorces, dies or retires. If they divorce, it would pay for the law issues, and leave both parties a little money to move on without being destitute.

 

This would solve a lot of problems, including keeping people too poor to start families from marrying. Of course, they'd probably just start the family without marrying, but, overall, that's a pretty common occurence anyway...

[MikeRivers]

 

Is getting a divorce expensive and complicated a message sent by the government telling us not to marry?

No, it's a message about family values that makes us a better country. Or at least our president thinks so. It seems to be a good marketing strategy.

 

Besides, haven't you heard about the rising cost of leaving?

[UstadKhanAli]

You can go to We The People and get a simple divorce for several hundred dollars.

 

Problem is that most divorces are not simple, sometimes by choice.

[Dave Martin]

Why is it so freaking complicated/expensive?

As with vintage guitars, some folks feel that if a thing is not expensive, it's not worth getting.

[UstadKhanAli]

Most likely, the more painful the divorce, the more expensive.

[MrKnobs]

Well, you know the joke:

 

Divorce is so expensive because it's TOTALLY F*CKIN WORTH IT!

 

But seriously, divorce is expensive because you're dividing assets and property, and many people can't compromise without being forced to by the court.

 

Divorce is extremely cheap if no children are involved and the two parties can come to an amicable settlement on the community property. As others have said, you can easily do the paperwork yourself. I helped a female coworker do hers, it was a breeze.

 

Terry D.

[deanmass]

To quote Willie Nelson-- "because it is worth it"...

[veracohr]

Not that I ever have been, or ever will be, married, but...

 

I don't understand why "the state" has any place in marriage or divorce at all. It's a thing between two people.

[audioicon]

So from all I have read, will prenup or what ever the word is "pre-solve" the problem? If so why do most people not sign it? Will you be comfortable enough to tell someone you love to sign a prenup before marriage?

 

I'm not trying to seek marital advise here but find it very "stupid" that people build relationships willingly and just can't leave without trying to tear each other apart.

 

Patrick/Icon

[ViLo]

Is getting a divorce expensive and complicated a message sent by the government telling us not to marry? Patrick/Icon

 

NO! Is telling not to divorce!!

[deanmass]

So my Willie Nelson answer was one side..

 

The other side is, lawyers screw you because when you are divorce, both or at least one of you is emotionally weak (rightly so) and they play on your fears. With mine, we did a mediation, and when they came back with the agreement, we were so torn down, we both agreed without getting what we wanted because we were both so tired of fighting. We just wanted out.

 

Frying pans not excluded, the reasons for divorce in my case and in everyone I know who is divorced are usually fairly simple. You stop communicating, you stop trusting, and you take for granted the things your partner does OR your partner does th inverse to you or both. There always seems to be a tendency to dramatize it, (fighting about money/affairs/drinking) which in some cases may be true, but, if you are not communicating as a couple, and you do not trust, you cannot love on the level required to be partners, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc.

 

So as to cost, the divorce system is an industry like any other. They are going to maximize profit as much as reasonable.

 

If you are not married, and are thinking of it, I would boil it down to this;

 

Are you making a decision not to marry out of FEAR, or for a different reason that you don't really want to confront?

 

Don't let fear dictate your actions. If there is not enough love to overcome fear, then you are not ready to get married. If there is another reason, look deep, figure out what it is, and solve it. If solving it involves changing your relationship, do it. When I was married, and things were good, there is not much that is better, but, when it turns a bad corner, there is nothing worse, especially when you have to medical needs kids like I do. All of my problems maritally could have been avoided with more honesty with myself, more from my ex, more communication, etc. We married to early, got through quite a few years on lust and inertia, and then the wheels came off.

 

So, don't fear it, cause it can be great. Just think carefully and honestly, and choose accordingly. If you do that, divorce won't be a factor.

[Ani]

 

this of course is unfair, because as we all know it takes two people for a successful relationship, and it also takes two people to create an unhealthy and vicious divorce

 

 

I guess each divorce is unique... My first divorce cost $650, where no children were involved and I walked out empty handed just to get the hell away from an abusive man. Clean break without any repercussions ever.

 

Second divorce started out amicable with only ONE attorney involved. The ex-to-be and I had already agreed upon a fair split, custody of the kids, and etc before signing the papers. The attorney that I had hired for an extremely "reasonable" sum of $475.00 insisted that I bring my husband in to sign all of the final documents.... WRONG FREAKING ANSWER!!!!

 

Once the attorney had my ex-to-be in his office, he started reviewing the documents with my ex. I sat there in disbelief as to what my attorney started doing to plant distrust and apprehension into my ex's thought process. As he would read wording in the settlement agreement, he would raise his brows and say, "Now this all looks like a fair deal, but let me first inform you that I was hired by your wife and whatever I do will be in her best interest. If you have any questions as to whether or not this offer is fair, I suggest that you hire your own attorney to review the offer." The attorney KEPT insinuating that my ex was getting a raw deal... by the tone in his voice and his constant recommendation of hiring a second attorney to review the contracts.

 

As we walked out of the attorney's office, I told my ex that he would NEVER get a better deal than what had been presented, up to and INCLUDING joint custody to where he would not have had to pay child support.... I was offering him a life outside of his first marriage... whereas I could have been hitting him up for child support, alimony (after having supported him through 3 years of finalizing his BA degree in engineering) and more.... He looked at me and said, "You don't have a problem with me having an attorney REVIEW the paperwork do you?" and I said "NO".... What neither one of us knew at the time was, whenever a second attorney comes onto the scene, the divorce immediately gets labeled as CONTESTED!!!

 

Once the attorneys got into the picture, things completely spiraled out of control and "my part" of the divorce ended up costing me over $28,000.00 on the surface, and several thousand more if I wanted to count the underlying damages. Having had joint credit with the ex, the debt fell back onto me when the ex defaulted on payments for his portion of debt assigned in the divorce. Ugly is UGLY.... when attorneys keep stirring the kettle. When my ex's attorney told him that he was entitled to half of all that "I" had acquired prior to ever having known him... My retirement fund, my home that was almost paid for... solely in my name (thankfully), and basically my entire livelihood... he got the big eyes and greed took over. There were too many emotions flying to get him to even think rationally....

 

Attorney's can be evil, and any time a divorce starts off friendly, hiring more than ONE attorney will certainly put a wrench into any possibility of ever remaining friends after all is said and done. BTW, I didn't hit the ex up for alimony, but I ended up selling the house to pay attorney fees whenever the custody battles began...... the ex DID get half of my retirement... but.... it's all water under the bridge now and my kids are almost grown.

 

Marriage???? Will I ever do it again???? Don't know...... Doubt it, but old school virtues have a tendency to nag at me. Right now, I've just been concentrating on career and getting my kids raised so I shy away from romance. I "think" about it from time to time, and every now and then I actually find someone that sparks an interest.... but a LOT of damage has been done and it's hard to find enough trust to even consider a relationship. I'll have to make it past that "trust" point of entering a relationship period before I will be able to determine whether I'd ever marry again or not... I dated a bit, but that's about the extent of if.

[philbo]

Wow, Ani, that is quite an experience!! Me and my ex knew we didn't want attorneys involved in our case from the beginning.

 

I filed for divorce 'pro se' (without lawyers). The court sat on the case for 6 months, then in court the judge told me that the requirements for pro se paperwork changed after I filed, so we had to re-submit our case on the new paperwork. (post ex facto, my ass!) And she STRONGLY suggested we both get lawyers and file for delays. We blew off her 'advice', refiled, and got it done in 2 weeks.

 

Total cost for legal work: $925

($600 was for QRDO documents to split my pension and 401K, the rest was for a file-it-yourself paper work kit from the web & filing fees).

 

In comparison to the cost of separating assets, it was nothing. But 'nothing' how much we agreed the lawyers should get for our case... and it worked out.

------------------------------------------------

 

 

What do you call 12000 dead lawyers at the bottom of a cliff? - - A good start

 

Why won't sharks eat lawyers? -- professional courtesy

 

What do lawyers use for birth control? --- their personalities

[Ani]

 

Wow, Ani, that is quite an experience!! Me and my ex knew we didn't want attorneys involved in our case from the beginning.

 

 

My ex and I had both agreed upon everything prior to filing the divorce... In the way it ended up; NOBODY came out with their heads above water except for the attorneys. The divorce itself took over three years, and post divorce issues drug out for another 7 years.

 

For a while, I questioned whether I was dealing with a situation akin to "The War of the Roses" that starred Michael Douglas. All of the animosity yielded some interesting songs, but.... wow; I "NEVER" want to go through that kind of a mess again. I think that it's more prevalent with couples that have minor children in the home.... Divorce attorneys see the $$$ signs tenfold and tend to feed fuel onto the fires.

[Billster]

 

As he would read wording in the settlement agreement, he would raise his brows and say, "Now this all looks like a fair deal, but let me first inform you that I was hired by your wife and whatever I do will be in her best interest. If you have any questions as to whether or not this offer is fair, I suggest that you hire your own attorney to review the offer." The attorney KEPT insinuating that my ex was getting a raw deal... by the tone in his voice and his constant recommendation of hiring a second attorney to review the contracts.

 

 

It's probably a legal requirement that the attorney inform the adverse party of their rights. "Raised eyebrows" and "tone of voice" can be misperceptions on your part, because you are an adverse party to your ex.

 

 

As we walked out of the attorney's office, I told my ex that he would NEVER get a better deal than what had been presented,

 

 

As I was saying, your interest was to get signed, sealed and delivered right then and there. If you initiated it and did the legwork to get the agreement written, it was done in your interests. If the ex-to-be hadn't seen that set of agreements beforehand, it would have been careless of him to sign without understanding it from a detached perspective.

 

Put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose the husband initiated the divorce, got a lawyer to write everything up, and told you it was perfectly simple. Would you sign it without having every aspect of the agreement reviewed by someone who isn't emotionally invested? Can you see that if you did sign off, that the first time something didn't go your way you have no options because the "perfectly simple and fair agreement" your ex wrote up left you out in the cold?

 

"Amicable divorce" is one of the biggest oxymorons I've ever heard. If the relationship was amicable, there wouldn't be anyone looking for a divorce.

[Ani]

As I was saying, your interest was to get signed, sealed and delivered right then and there. If you initiated it and did the legwork to get the agreement written, it was done in your interests. If the ex-to-be hadn't seen that set of agreements beforehand, it would have been careless of him to sign without understanding it from a detached perspective.

 

Bill,

 

The ex and I had discussed the division of properties and debt responsibilities in detail prior to my filing of the divorce. NOTHING deviated from all that we had agreed upon when I presented the terms to the attorney. He was merely hired to draft the paperwork... nothing more. For that matter, I even invited the ex to attend the initial consultation so that he would be present during the writing of the PSA. He was comfortable in the idea that "I" would be the one forking over the cash to pay for the divorce, so he decided not to attend. Still, nothing was changed from that which he and I had agreed upon. It was not until the attorney planted the seeds of distrust that my ex decided to seek another attorney. As I said earlier, neither one of us were aware of the fact that the very MOMENT a second attorney enters an appearance, the divorce becomes contested.

 

I received a letter from my attorney immediately following the ex's attorney's entry of appearance stating that the divorce had become contested and that he would require an additional $1,000.00 just to review the case any further... I fired him on the spot and retained different counsel. By that time, though, the damage had been done. Before it was all over, there were 7 attorneys involved in the divorce and the divorce drug through the courts for 3 years; not counting post divorce issues landing in the courts...

 

The very first attorney that I spoke with is the one that I should have hired; he was asking a set price of $2,000.00. He specifically told me that his price was quite a bit higher than those that advertised in the papers, but he would execute the necessary paperwork and all would be done and over with expeditiously and without the headaches.... Not hiring him was the most boneheaded mistake that I could have ever made. I thought that he was pretty arrogant and overpriced; but in the end, I learned that he was just being HONEST!!! I opted for the $475.00 shark out of the want ads and took the other $1,525.00 and bought a new leather sofa set... after all, the only thing I needed an attorney for was to draw up the paperwork that had already been agreed upon by my ex. My mother always told me that I'd have to learn things the hard way; I lived true to her words.

 

There are "some" decent attorneys, but there are also some REAL SNAKES out there. I encountered a rattlesnake and a cobra along the path I chose... the rattler being the a-hole that I hired initially, and the cobra being the 2nd attorney hired by my ex. He fired his first attorney from the case after she told him that he NEEDED to get involved with the divorce counseling that I enrolled my children in. The ex was trying to say that I was unstable (unfit) because I hired a "shrink" to help my children through a very difficult situation. He was not happy with his attorney when she told him that hiring counsel for my children was the "healthy" thing to do for their stability during such a traumatic experience for them; my children were 6 and 3 years old when the marriage split.

 

Attorneys are like Postal Workers.... everyone knows who they are, and you'll find it hard to convince many that the rumors created by a select few do not apply to all involved in the field.

[Billster]

 

My mother always told me that I'd have to learn things the hard way; I lived true to her words.

 

 

It's not agreed until the paperwork is signed. Again, it is most likely the ethical and legal responsibility of the attorney to inform an adverse party of their rights. Kind of like the civil version of a Miranda warning.

 

If you and the ex had an agreement, both of you should have sat down with mediator where all the info is out in front of everyone.

[ZigZagWanderer]

 

Divorce is extremely cheap if no children are involved and the two parties can come to an amicable settlement on the community property.

 

 

True. Legal expenses vary with the complexity of the case. Two people who have been married for a relatively short time and/or have not accumulated many assets and have not had children together can get a divorce quickly, easily and cheaply.

 

 

Again, it is most likely the ethical and legal responsibility of the attorney to inform an adverse party of their rights.

 

 

True. A lawyer cannot represent two opposing parties in the same transaction. If there isn't a lawyer on the other side, the one attorney has to make sure that the other person knows that he/she is representing the one client.

 

 

There are "some" decent attorneys, but there are also some REAL SNAKES out there. I encountered a rattlesnake and a cobra along the path I chose... the rattler being the a-hole that I hired initially, and the cobra being the 2nd attorney hired by my ex.

 

 

Domestic relations attorneys hear about peoples' marital problems day in and day out, year after year. That gets VERY old VERY quickly. Guess what? No one cares if a spouse cheated. No one cares if the kids have been turned against one of the parents. No one cares if husband or wife has run up a huge credit card debt. No one cares if your sex life has lost its spark. Attorneys are hired to handle a specific legal problem, not all of the related psychological, emotional, etc. issues that arise with a divorce.

 

 

Put the shoe on the other foot. Suppose the husband initiated the divorce, got a lawyer to write everything up, and told you it was perfectly simple. Would you sign it without having every aspect of the agreement reviewed by someone who isn't emotionally invested? Can you see that if you did sign off, that the first time something didn't go your way you have no options because the "perfectly simple and fair agreement" your ex wrote up left you out in the cold?

 

 

Very true. A divorce--no matter how simple--is a serious legal event, and should always be treated as such.

 

 

Before it was all over, there were 7 attorneys involved in the divorce and the divorce drug through the courts for 3 years; not counting post divorce issues landing in the courts...

 

 

That sounds like a complex divorce case.

 

Unlike some other areas of law--personal injury, class actions, civil rights--domestic relations attorneys do not solicit clients. The clients come to them because they have a legal problem.

[spikemullings]

Yes, yes, lawyer jokers are a lot of fun aren't they.

 

Got to go with Bill and Zigzag on this. People instruct lawyers just like people vote for politicians*. So like politicians, you generally get the lawyers you deserve.

 

 

* alright, alright let's not go there chad watchers :eek:.

 

Declaration of Interest - I am a lawyer (but ya' know, social welfare - on the side of the angels )

[philbo]

Spike -

 

I know wonderful people who are lawyers. But something about their professional responsibilities turns them to asses when in a marital case, I guess.

 

Both my & my ex'es early experience in speaking to lawyers was:

1) No response to repeated attempts to set up appointments

2) Ignored phone calls

3) Once the consultation was set up & the lawyer informed that neither of us was interested in being adversarial, *both* her & my lawyer did their best to convince each of us we would be getting screwed if we didn't wage a wholesale legal and financial holy war on the other. And we both had the same response to this: "Sorry, I'm not interested. I hired you. If you can't do what I ask, we're done here."

 

My greatest good luck this year was that my ex-spouse and I saw these attempts at war-mongering in the same way, and responded in the same way....

[spikemullings]

That's good Phil - you and your ex did exactly the right thing.

 

And you put your finger on it. In the UK and US "The Law" makes a huge assumption in trying to ensure that justice is done between people: that an adversarial system with equality of arms played out against a background of (essentially) judeo/christian morality filtered through basic logic will produce something like justice.

 

The law in these terms can be imagined as analagous to the Mutually Assured Destruction strategy put forward by arms race apologists - as long as both sides have the capability to totally destroy each other simultaneously , neither will actually do so.

 

MAD was and is pretty expensive. And so is the law for those who have to have recourse to it. And so the problem with MAD is pretty obvious as is the problem with the law, and at the same time it is hard to think how to extricate ourselves from either system!

 

At least in divorce law now there is some recognition that the parties might now be equally matched in respect of legal resources, especially where there are children and the wife may have given up her career to be primary carer. In the UK there are some pretty good schemes to reduce the adversarial element in family law.

 

Try using the law to help the poor get decent housing, or try being Clive Stafford-Smith, the death row lawyer. You really would be MAD to think there is equality of arms in those situations.

 

 

 

 

Ooh sorry, pompous, sanctimonious rant alert

 

 

[Ani]

 

I know wonderful people who are lawyers. But something about their professional responsibilities turns them to asses when in a marital case, I guess.

 

 

+1

 

My first divorce attorney was superb. Maybe it was due to the changing of times or whatever, but ONE attorney handled BOTH of the party's interests in the first divorce. The ex and I walked in with our agreed upon settlement and the PSA was drawn up on the spot and signed into law. We had a waiting period of so many days, and IIRC, I didn't even have to appear in court. I am the one that hired the attorney THAT time also, but he did exactly what he was contracted to do; he transferred our agreed upon terms into legalese and filed the papers with the courts. He had long been retired, or else I would have sought him out to file the second divorce.

 

I have hired attorneys to assist in land surveys, property issues, and contractor disputes. I have NEVER came close to experiencing the TRAUMA that I endured with a slew of blood-thirsty marital-war-mongering vultures that call themselves divorce attorneys, or more appropriately, Family Law. Actually, most all of the attorneys that I have dealt with outside of divorce have resulted in a beneficial outcome. I'm not totally anti-attorney; not at all.

 

Divorce attorneys, on the other hand.... well..... there's more briars on a bush than there are berries.

[Billster]

 

People instruct lawyers just like people vote for politicians*. So like politicians, you generally get the lawyers you deserve.

 

 

Regardless of the situation with the second divorce lawyer (who was legally obligated to inform your second ex of his rights) leading to multiple legal complexities, expenses, and annoyance - everything that came after the husband retaining separate counsel was done at your behest. Any course of action that may have been suggested, any scorched earth tactics that ran up big bills and dragged the process out for months and years, all of that happened because you allowed it to. At any point you could have said "enough", but apparently chose to allow the confrontation to continue, whether out of spite towards your ex, or because the you placed your faith in the lawyer to do everything for you, or some other reason.