On the subject of keys in metal...

This is a cross post, but I wager that many of you folks don't wander into the guitar forum too often so I present it to you here"

I was listening to Deep Purple's "In Rock" yesterday...

In the realm of metal, keyboards generally have no place. They sound overtly cheesey and forced and usually completely derail any sort of riff or hook the rhythm section is trying to establish.

The genre of black metal is an exception.

Why does it work in this context?

But my main point is that Jon Lord stands alone...his key tones were far more rich, his melodies far more interesting and developed. Lord could make the band's sound even heavier, as opposed to washed out and stupid. Put bluntly, he played the instrument with balls and the attitude that the music demanded. He acted like a second guitar as well as a bassist when needed, which blended perfectly with Blackmore's more single-noted and double-stop melodies.

Is it a given that keys and metal just don't work...or are the bands just not playing them correctly?

What are the roles of tone and mixing as they apply to getting some keys in there?

...and please, PLEASE don't waste time with telling me that Deep Purple ain't metal.

If I remember correctly he plays his Hammond through some Marshall Stacks. Also Deep Purples chord progressions kind of are suited to his sound.

The problem isn't mixing, it is bad patches and worse ideas.

I disagree. Entirely.

Being both a metalhead and a keyboard I actually feel quite insulted. Many metal bands make very good use of keyboards. Innumerable Gothic, Industrial, Prog, Power bands prove this, but naturally there are bands in other sub-genres that prove it too. Stoner metal bands such as Spiritual Beggars make excellent use of Hammond organs. Opeth also use more "vintage" keyboard instruments to great effect ( even if it is the same keyboardist ). For more synth based sounds, see ...And Oceans.

And as to Black metal being the exception, they are normally the most OTT with keyboards.

Sounds like someone hasen't listened to many metal bands with keyboards if you ask me .

*Notices he has gone all rant-y and stuff*

Whoops...

I think the other way. I wish more people would integrate guitars with synth music well.

Originally posted by Speedyjx I disagree. Entirely. Being both a metalhead and a keyboard I actually feel quite insulted. Many metal bands make very good use of keyboards. Innumerable Gothic, Industrial, Prog, Power bands prove this, but naturally there are bands in other sub-genres that prove it too. Stoner metal bands such as Spiritual Beggars make excellent use of Hammond organs. Opeth also use more "vintage" keyboard instruments to great effect ( even if it is the same keyboardist ). For more synth based sounds, see ...And Oceans. And as to Black metal being the exception, they are normally the most OTT with keyboards. Sounds like someone hasen't listened to many metal bands with keyboards if you ask me . *Notices he has gone all rant-y and stuff* Whoops...

You ARE a keyboard? wow!

So are we now to engage in a shoving match where we cite numerous underground metal bands and compare scars to determine which of us is more metal and has greater credibility?

What's OTT?

The problem might be what currently passes for metal....

Keys sound good in good music. If they sound bad in what you're listening to, maybe the problem is the 'music'??

Blackie Lawless said it himself (referring to nearly blowing his balls off with fireworks): "If we wrote better songs, we wouldn't have to do this crap".

What do you feel "currently passes for metal?"

Wild guess - "over the top"?

A metric ton of {censored}. And I LOVE metal. But for every decent heavy band out there, there's 20 more that think just because they've got breakdowns in every song and their singer can growl that it makes them heavy.

Every time a particular sub-sub-sub-genre gains a little popularity you get dozens of bandwagon jumpers clogging things up with variations on the same theme.

Of course...that's true of any popular genre, and mainstream media caters to the least common denominator...

...but Dark Tranquillity, Blind Guardian, and Novembre still rule. m/

Just as a point of reference, I'm a big-time Deep Purple fan. And Blackmore DID delve into real metal with early Rainbow - and there are incredible keyboards all over that stuff.

Great thread!

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be) but most talented burnin' key players tend to gravitate to a different genre. Most metal keyboard players orchestrate or hold down whole notes etc. (nothing wrong with that, that was how Rick Wright kicked ass). Plus, the Hammond organ has not been equaled for organic ballsiness so the synth players are at a disadvantage. Freely admitting my metal knowledge is way out of date...

BTW any metal heads out there- listen to Joey DeFrancesco play "Greensleeves"- and ask yourself how he could possibly play second fiddle to a doofus guitar player.

of course its all subjective, but I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE keyboards in metal.

I listen to a lot of prog metal and keyboards always make the songs shine!

Listening to Symphony X - Bird-serpent war gets my adrenaline going when the keyboards add to the dark and dramatic atmosphere!

WTF are you talking about?!

Deep Purple has always been considered progressive.

Well, bands like Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin were all considered "Heavy Metal" back in the day....but they certainly can't be classified as that in the modern sense of the word, especially Zeppelin who broke out into blues, folk...even country music. But if someone wants to classify them as metal, so be it. It's just a word.

I remember Black Sabbath using keyboards though. I remember an episode of "The Osbornes" where Ozzy had received the old synth they used back on one of their albums/tours (an ARP 2600 I think) and he was showing it to his son, but couldn't get it to turn on.

I went to an Ozzy show when he was on tour in like 1981 (with Randy Rhodes) and he had a keyboard player for the whole show. Can't remember if he was featured that much though.

I think you're onto something with the "Hammond organ vs. the modern synthe" idea. Those old Hammond's really do have a kick ass in-your-face kind of tone....and again like you said most modern "metal keyboardists" simply use the synthe to hold down chords with that "light strings' or "human voices" kind of patches...which makes the music sound a bit wimpy or silly overall sometimes.

Emperor makes great uses of keys in metal.

Yes, I agree that weak patches are indeed a problem.

Are you kidding? The debates about Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin and now even SABBATH not being metal are neverending on this site.

What does he have a Marshall head built right into his organ for output power? No wonder his sound was so killer!

Damn you forum, you win this time -_-.

But anyways, back on topic. Saying that keys don't belong in metal is a fair big statement. I mean, you don't need guitars to be a metal band either, look at Apocalyptica and Painkiller. The same applies to most genres, you could use basically any instrument in any genre. A sitar playing jazz might sound weird, but it's still jazz (although it'd get dubbed with some long-winded sub-genre).

And also, where were the underground bands? Just because you have't heard of a band doesn't make them underground. But saying this makes me bitchy, so let's move on >_>.

It's also a statement that I NEVER made. Please re-read my post if you feel I made that generalization.

We are having major communication issues. I'm just saying that that's what metal fans stereotypically do to somehow validate themselves and their credibility.

I have to mention that when I think of keys in metal, the word "cheesy" comes to mind - the sounds of Dream Theater and Nightwish are cases in point.

Often, it seems to me that metal bands (especially those who form part of the whole "neo-classical" wave of metal, such as power metal) are more and more making use of keyboards for orchestral effects, which tends to detract from any heavyness or dissonance and rather add to the open, epic, melodic feel of the music; which makes it sound more like Celine Dion than anything else.

However, as a budding composer, I have realised that there are ways to incorporate keyboard sounds into metal in less cheesy ways. Fat synth sounds supporting the bass, whether in melodic episodes or RATM-esque riffs, can add to the bottom-end of a groove. Also, I've started playing around with Korn-esque nu-metal, and realised that your common or garden piano is capable of very guitarlike attitude - run a piano through an overdriven tube amp and you can get some killer rhythm sounds to support a downtuned 7-string.

I think the problem is that metal musicians are getting more and more cheesy by the day; but the average guitar sound isn't very "cheesy" at all, so it tends to show more in the keys than in the guitar.

Just to be precise, Jon Lord did not have a Marshall built into his organ. The only thing those pics of the open back of his organ show are normal Hammond guts.

He DID however play thru Marshall PA cabinets and heads during his Machine Head era. At other times he used Leslies, or a combination of both.