what exactly is going on in the Strat's 2 & 4 positions?

[Wyatt]

 

It isn't a humbucker in positions two and four, it is hum canceling, to me there is a big difference. Also, the sound is so different in positions two and four because their is phase cancellation. That's why those positions are a bit more quiet than the other three.

 

 

Wow, thank you for that recap.

[nuke_diver]

 

i switched from a really great, bright bridge pickup tone to a honky nasally 2 position tone.

 

probably just as many hate the bridge pickup on a strat. I've heard it described as an icepick to the brain.

 

They all have their uses IMO

[Wyatt]

 

probably just as many hate the bridge pickup on a strat. I've heard it described as an icepick to the brain. They all have their uses IMO

 

 

I agree with that Adding the bridge SC to a tone pot removes the excessive high end, IMHO.

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

Yes, I also hate the quack positions. When I get new pickups, I'm going to wire my strat without quack at all.

 

 

please show the wiring diagram when you do it. i would actually consider a strat if i could get rid of the quack.

 

as usual, Wyatt answers. thanks.

[DaveAronow]

 

please show the wiring diagram when you do it. i would actually consider a strat if i could get rid of the quack. as usual, Wyatt answers. thanks.

 

 

Man, even though I will use all strat positions, the quack positions are the last two I would want to do without. Take that back, I hardly ever use neck+middle, but I mostly use bridge+middle. Definitely wouldnt have a reason to even own a strat without that position. I like alot of clean tones though, and I have a feeling alot of the people that arent so into the quack, are more regular dirty players.

[59humbucker]

If you like the blues, I don't see how you can do without positions 2 n 4.

 

My strats rarely taken off 4

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

Man, even though I will use all strat positions, the quack positions are the last two I would want to do without. Take that back, I hardly ever use neck+middle, but I mostly use bridge+middle. Definitely wouldnt have a reason to even own a strat without that position. I like alot of clean tones though, and I have a feeling alot of the people that arent so into the quack, are more regular dirty players.

 

 

nope. i play clean a lot and much prefer the bridge position on a strat to the combined positions. though i prefer my tele over anything strat.

[DaveAronow]

 

nope. i play clean a lot and much prefer the bridge position on a strat to the combined positions. though i prefer my tele over anything strat.

 

 

Different strokes. Whatchoo talkin bout willis?

 

 

No, I hear ya. I DO love the bridge position, but I like that one with some dirt on it. I DO, almost always have a use for any Tele tone over any strat tone though.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Different strokes. Whatchoo talkin bout willis? No, I hear ya. I DO love the bridge position, but I like that one with some dirt on it. I DO, almost always have a use for any Tele tone over any strat tone though.

 

well like i said, i'm trying to figure out exactly what's going on. apparently, its phase cancellation. now i have a reason to tell my students.

 

i wonder if you'd get more phase cancellation if you moved the middle pickup closer to one of the other pickups?

[DaveAronow]

well like i said, i'm trying to figure out exactly what's going on. apparently, its phase cancellation. now i have a reason to tell my students. i wonder if you'd get more phase cancellation if you moved the middle pickup closer to one of the other pickups?

 

I dont know. I would suspect the phase cancellation is coming from the signal passing through the electronics, pups, magnets, etc, and being switched in direction by wiring the pups out of phase, where it starts of at one wave and gets altered 180 by the next pup being wired backwards.... or somethinbg like that. not so much of an effect cause by the interaction with the strings and magnets and the pups effect on each other. I think, if this is correct, it wouldnt matter if they were ten feet apart, the phase would still be cancelled. The TONE of the effect would definitely be altered by moving the pups, but it would just be an effect of different tones imparted on the same phase situation. This would explain why position neck + middle sounds very similar to position middle + neck only significantly brighter. Very similar tones, but logically altrered by the closeness to the neck or bridge.

 

Not sure though.

[fretmonster]

 

Well it is a Strat copy? So just might not sound as speacial in those positions if it's of lower qaulity, that's what I'm assuming really.

 

 

This

 

I don't know the technical stuff - a little clearer after reading Wyatt's post - but I have noticed that the notch positions only seem to really work for me on the best Strats. Come to think of it, I've played a few Boutique Strats that couldn't do the quack as well or really even sound Stratty. I have three 3 pickup guitars with five way switching, one with a wilky, one stop tail and one stock Fender, all really good guitars, but only the Fender gives me that notch magic. Something about that funky Fender trem system I imagine.

[AaronF]

 

I dont know. I would suspect the phase cancellation is coming from the signal passing through the electronics, pups, magnets, etc, and being switched in direction by wiring the pups out of phase, where it starts of at one wave and gets altered 180 by the next pup being wired backwards.... or somethinbg like that. not so much of an effect cause by the interaction with the strings and magnets and the pups effect on each other. I think, if this is correct, it wouldnt matter if they were ten feet apart, the phase would still be cancelled. The TONE of the effect would definitely be altered by moving the pups, but it would just be an effect of different tones imparted on the same phase situation. This would explain why position neck + middle sounds very similar to position middle + neck only significantly brighter. Very similar tones, but logically altrered by the closeness to the neck or bridge. Not sure though.

 

 

I think you can wire a strat to be in phase in the two and four positions, with a reverse wound middle pickup. All the reverse winding does is cancel the hum.

 

Come to think of it, I think I had a buddy who tried this and said it was really muddy.

[DaveAronow]

 

I think you can wire a strat to be in phase in the two and four positions, with a reverse wound middle pickup. All the reverse winding does is cancel the hum. Come to think of it, I think I had a buddy who tried this and said it was really muddy.

 

 

Like I said. Im not sure.

 

Just wanted to be clear on that. I was just basically thinking out loud and completely welcome someone pointing out the holes in my theory. You may be right.

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

This I don't know the technical stuff - a little clearer after reading Wyatt's post - but I have noticed that the notch positions only seem to really work for me on the best Strats. Come to think of it, I've played a few Boutique Strats that couldn't do the quack as well or really even sound Stratty. I have three 3 pickup guitars with five way switching, one with a wilky, one stop tail and one stock Fender, all really good guitars, but only the Fender gives me that notch magic. Something about that funky Fender trem system I imagine.

 

 

i've only ever played one strat that made me reconsider, a '66 that had all the paint stripped off. then i picked up my tele and that was the end of that.

[fretmonster]

Teles are special for sure, everybody has preferences, that's what makes the world go round. But, just for fun, cruise into GC sometime, get into that special room where the good guitars are at and give a Eric Johnson Sig a spin in notch position. Others work as well but there is a lot of attention to detail on these.

 

I recently acquired a 2003 MIM off from Craigs. The young woman selling (ooh la la) was a sponsored artist (GC or Fender or both) that had recently moved to town to be with her sweetheart (who convinced her she had too much gear). Anyhoo, it's like a custom order job that she said she was told was worth 1600. I don't know, but it is a special guitar with a tinted neck, uncharacteristic opaque finish, controls that attenuate all the way, fender stamped tuners and saddles and the best quality five way switch I've ever seen on a Strat. However, it did have that grayish (pot metal) bridge block and a plastic nut. It sounded pretty good before, very resonant but some cross frequency on the high E. After swapping the block for a Fender Steel and the nut for tusq, it sounds divine - bell city. (Just trying to say that string path is very important and noticeable on a Strat.)

[Willyguitar]

The tele kills the strat for me too. The strat pickups on their own sound quite nice and chimey. The 2 and 4 position though remind me of nasty mid '80s film tracks. The tele or LP in-between on the other hand...

 

Knopfler is OK... but the sound is almost TOO distinctive to be very versatile for me.

[J-E-M]

It also depends on your style a lot; I mean someone playing metal isn't going to find them terribly useful.

 

I do.

I have my Strat with all the possible pickup combinations wired in series, with a mid blender so I can control the quack.

I use the neck + middle pickups most of the time, and find that it really doesn't have that much quack at all (maybe that has to do with the fact that the neck and mid pickups each on their own sound almost the same).

I like the mid + bridge for single notes and octaves, especially when using vibrato and micro bends.

The neck + bridge seems to cluck more than quack.

With the pickup combos wired in series you get fat tones, but they're less dense sounding with more chime when compared to a humbucker; there's also a little less quack than parallel pickup combinations. With the series output they seem to take on a p90ish quality (but that has more to do with the way I EQ my sound).

I like to be different. However, my metal stylings lean more towards the old school. If I want the modern brutal tones I'd use a humbucker.

 

[Karma1]

I like the 2 & 4 positions for certain things - clean sounds only, especially funk rhythms. That tone always reminds me of Nile Rodgers of Chic. There's something about 2 & 4 that seem to give a kind of compressed tone where the playing dynamics are evened out slightly more from string to string, as well as the over all dynamic range being a bit more limited in the way a compressor pedal works. Any explanations on that?

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

I like the 2 & 4 positions for certain things - clean sounds only, especially funk rhythms. That tone always reminds me of Nile Rodgers of Chic. There's something about 2 & 4 that seem to give a kind of compressed tone where the playing dynamics are evened out slightly more from string to string, as well as the over all dynamic range being a bit more limited in the way a compressor pedal works. Any explanations on that?

 

 

i thought that explanation was given on the first page.

[hecticone]

So much music has been recorded in those positions. I use those 2 all the time for different textures. Its a strat use all its nuances.

[wagdog]

 

It isn't a humbucker in positions two and four, it is hum canceling, to me there is a big difference.

 

 

Please explain the difference.

[Wyatt]

 

I think you can wire a strat to be in phase in the two and four positions, with a reverse wound middle pickup. All the reverse winding does is cancel the hum. Come to think of it, I think I had a buddy who tried this and said it was really muddy.

 

 

No.

 

A stock Strat wiring has all pickups in phase electronically all the time (RWRP or not). Calling positions 2 and 4 the "off of phase" positions is just in reference to their tone, not their wiring. It's one of the incorrect phases that has stuck with guitar lore for decades.

 

The phase issues come from the slight "detuning" between the two PU's signals caused by the PU positions in relation to the string rotation (see my original post).

[jrockbridge]

I have an Am Dlx with a Fralin SP43 in the bridge and a Vintage Hot in the middle. The bridge/middle position works very well with gain. Sometimes, I use the blender pot to mix in a bit of the neck pup....SWEET!

 

I have a Nitefly with BG Pure 90 bridge pup and a BG Phatty middle. The bridge/middle position has become one of my favorite sounds on that guitar.

 

I think dialing in the amps is key. Perhaps, in my case, having high output bridge pups makes it work better.

[mdog114]

I love the 2/4 positions on a strat, it's where the magic starts.

[Help!I'maRock!]

I love the 2/4 positions on a strat, it's where the magic starts.

 

the magic is in the volume knob location.