Not too happy with Carvin...

[GCDEF]

I invite anyone to compare this with, say, buying a PRS at Guitar Center. You get one color choice, one wood choice, one bridge choice, one neck choice, etc. You get THAT ONE, right there on the wall. Take it or leave it. You're not about to call up PRS (or Jackson or Ibanez or Dean or Gibson or Fender) and ask them to modify it to your taste. Even if you go to MF and order off the net, you usually get ONE (1) selection. For some, you might get two color choices. Certainly you will NOT get choices of fingerboard radius, inlays, top wood, hardware color, and on and on and on that Carvin offers. And after you order there's nobody to call to say "are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet?"

 

PRS and the other big companies do have many models with a number of different colors, woods, necks and other options. PRS does have more than one color. They have different woods and tops, different neck sizes, different number of frets, bolt ons and set necks, neck sizes, etc. Why are you saying PRS only gives you one choice?

 

Same with Fender. Look at all the different Strats you can choose from. You'd have to be extremely picky not to be able to find a Fender configured the way you want it.

[Belva]

I haven't dealt with Carvin. But I agree an estimate is just that. Y'ever have an addition done on a house? A custom paint job on a car? Nothing ever goes exactly as planned. Novel thought, how about you just shut the phuck up, quit bugging them & let them do their job? Might get your guitar sooner.

[RaVenCAD]

but, a few days could mean they are well past the timeframe of the creating/building area that you would want to discuss.

 

 

That's why they ask everything up front. When I hang up after ordering my guitar, that's supposed to be the end of my interaction with the builder. Anything after that can only slow the process down or irritate the guy making it.. Hard to hit moving target.

[Flintc]

PRS and the other big companies do have many models with a number of different colors, woods, necks and other options. PRS does have more than one color. They have different woods and tops, different neck sizes, different number of frets, bolt ons and set necks, neck sizes, etc. Why are you saying PRS only gives you one choice?

PRS does not build to order. Like many companies, they offer a broad range of pre-built instruments.

 

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. Let's say you don't want any neck inlays. Now, go find the PRS model that fits your need - AND comes in the model you want, in the color you want, with the frets you want, etc. All at the same time, of course.

 

Hey, what I'd like to buy is a Gibson ES-359. Blue, quilt, no burst, stainless frets, no fretboard inlays. Oh, and I'd like a different bridge pickup than the standard. Now if I understand you right, you're saying Gibson offers essentially what Carvin does, on the grounds that if Gibson doesn't make an ES-359 with ANY of these options, well, that's OK because Gibson has lots of different models of guitar so I should just buy an Explorer.

 

So you're right, PRS does have a lot of options. It's the difference between going to a cafeteria and picking whatever's there (lots of choices), and going into the kitchen to give your own recipes to the cook. If you think these are the same, then by all means buy the PRS and like it.

[RaVenCAD]

Flint, don't bother.. Some people want to be as obtuse as possible when it puts Carvin in a bad light. Carvin could send free hookers with each order and some people would only look at the negative side of that..

[fullmetalguitar]

I ordered a Carvin Bolt Plus last summer. My experience was smooth and satisfactory. I placed the order over the phone. They sent me an email to confirm the specs. I got my card with an estimated finish date. Did I think my guitar would be finished on that exact date? No, that would be ridiculous. When the date had almost arrived, I messaged Kevin, their webmaster, from their message board. He checked on my guitar and got back to me within hours, told me the exact day it would be finished and shipped out. A couple days later, I got the email with tracking info. Then the guitar arrived. Pure awesomeness.

You people expecting to be given an exact completion date weeks in advance have unrealistic expectations. And if you want to be able to call the shop and talk to the guy making your guitar at any stage of the process, be prepared for the whole build process to take longer and to pay more. Think about it.

By the way, I've never heard of anyone being able to call Fender, Jackson, Ibanez, , ESP, or Gibson to ask about their order. They don't deal directly with customers. You communicate through the dealer.

[Flintc]

Flint, don't bother.. Some people want to be as obtuse as possible when it puts Carvin in a bad light.

I don't know if I'd put it that way. GCDEF doesn't quite seem to grasp the custom-order business model.

 

So I tried to explain the pros and cons of Carvin's model. The pros are, you get extraordinary quality, you get pretty much precisely what you're looking for, you get this at not much more than half the price the same quality (much less customization) would cost from a retail store.

 

The cons are, you can't try out what hasn't been built yet before you order, you can't get your order immediately, and you have to deal with an extremely difficult and error-prone customer support system.

 

It's pretty clear that Carvin understands the problems facing their model. They produce beautiful catalogs, they provide an easy build-it-yourself website experience, they do their best to field unreasonable requests (and they get a whole bunch of these every day), they offer a no-questions-asked trial period. But the occasional mixups (not possible when you buy off the rack) and the build delays are unavoidable.

 

Hey, I've looked at the top-end PRS models. They're very very nice instruments. But when I've looked at them, it's always been a matter of whether I want to pay the asking price for the instrument I see. It wouldn't even cross my mind to ask GC if PRS would kindly build one with my own long list of preferences, and do it RIGHT NOW, and don't get anything wrong.

 

I think everyone but Carvin follows the same "crank out identical instruments with limited variation, ship in quantity into the distribution chain, and sell what's already made" model, mostly because most of us are basically impulse buyers. We might do a lot of homework and narrow our choices of what's already available, but once our mind is made up, we want to try everything on the short list and go instantly with what feels best.

 

And it's just downright unnatural to say, well, I just LOVE this Gibson, or this PRS, but I might like a Carvin more. But to compare, I have to STOP, place an order, pay 20-100% upfront, wait a month or two for delivery, THEN have 10 days to race out to compare the Carvin with the Gibson and the PRS (even if I'm busy then), and if I don't like it THEN pay to ship it back and get a refund. By which time, the Gibson and PRS guitars I liked so much will be long gone anyway...

 

Ahh, the hell with it. I can buy this Gibson RIGHT NOW, and walk out with it all mine. Piece of cake.

[Flintc]

By the way, I've never heard of anyone being able to call Fender, Jackson, Ibanez, , ESP, or Gibson to ask about their order. They don't deal directly with customers. You communicate through the dealer.

The whole model is different. Those people do not build to order. Whereas every guitar going through Carvin's shop is unique, every guitar on the line (one line, probably for days if not indefinitely) at PRS, etc. is identical. Carvin sells BEFORE building, everyone else sells AFTER building. And this is a very big difference in every way.

[RaVenCAD]

I don't know if I'd put it that way. GCDEF doesn't quite seem to grasp the custom-order business model.

 

 

Yeah, he does.. He hates Carvin though. Despite the fact that he's going to point out how much he lurvs Carvin's PA gear (and probably provide handy links to show that love and dedication), he hates their guitars. More to the point, he hates the customer service people. Carvin can do very little right in his eyes, and anyone saying they can MUST be lying.. He and I have argued this {censored} for almost 3 years now. Give it up, it's not going to do any good.

[Flintc]

Yeah, he does.. He hates Carvin though. Despite the fact that he's going to point out how much he lurvs Carvin's PA gear (and probably provide handy links to show that love and dedication), he hates their guitars. More to the point, he hates the customer service people.

Um, the PA gear, amps, strings, stands and other accessories are not built to order. They're a different business model. And the customer service structure is also entirely different for non-custom items - they are just order-punchers, and aren't spending all day trying to handle impatient people making unreasonable demands.

 

I would speculate that GCDEF would be delighted with Carvin's guitars-in-stock department. No options, no tracking, no mixups, no waiting for a build. He seems delighted with off-the-shelf instruments.

[RaVenCAD]

Dude, you don't listen.. Carvin = bad according to GCDEF.. There is very little deviation from that. Like I said, even if they shipped with free money, he'd still argue why they suck for doing it..

[Flintc]

Dude, you don't listen.. Carvin = bad according to GCDEF.. There is very little deviation from that.

If that's true, it's a shame. I admit I can't name a single manufacturer I've played more than 4 instruments from, where I didn't find at least one really good one and at least one fairly lousy one. Sometimes it's a QC issue, sometimes it's different models.

 

But this kind of thing happens. Over on the dedicated bass forums, it's "received wisdom" that Tobias basses were God's own instruments before Gibson bought the name, and pure crap ever after. And despite this allegedly drastic difference, most of those folks couldn't tell which was which if you taped over the serial number! Otherwise, they look and sound and feel just the same, and all are super high quality.

 

BUT when you go to sell one, you'll find that serial numbers before the "magic" Gibson number sell for TRIPLE the serial numbers just after it.

 

Now, I'm not saying GCDEF has to look at the logo before he knows whether a guitar is any good (whether it is or not!). But if it's true, it's sad.

 

(My main guitar is an old prototype Cort from the 70s. And I've had the most trouble with a very expensive Taylor. You just can't tell...)

[fullmetalguitar]

The whole model is different. Those people do not build to order. Whereas every guitar going through Carvin's shop is unique, every guitar on the line (one line, probably for days if not indefinitely) at PRS, etc. is identical. Carvin sells BEFORE building, everyone else sells AFTER building. And this is a very big difference in every way.

 

 

I know the difference. I guess I wasn't clear enough. I meant if you place a custom order. If it's a custom shop Charvel, for example, you will not be able to call the factory and talk to anyone at FMIC. I suppose you could try, but they would just refer you back to the middle man, the dealer. That, and you would be waiting months for your guitar instead of just weeks.

[GCDEF]

Dude, you don't listen.. Carvin = bad according to GCDEF.. There is very little deviation from that. Like I said, even if they shipped with free money, he'd still argue why they suck for doing it..

 

 

That's not what I'm saying at all. All these exchanges and you still don't get it. I've said dozens of times I'm sure Carvin puts out some nice guitars. What I am saying is that they also put out some lemons, and when people come along and say things "you can't go wrong" and they're the best guitar at any price and other such gems, I'm just trying to add a little objectivity.

[GCDEF]

PRS does not build to order. Like many companies, they offer a broad range of pre-built instruments. You seem to be deliberately missing the point. Let's say you don't want any neck inlays. Now, go find the PRS model that fits your need - AND comes in the model you want, in the color you want, with the frets you want, etc. All at the same time, of course. Hey, what I'd like to buy is a Gibson ES-359. Blue, quilt, no burst, stainless frets, no fretboard inlays. Oh, and I'd like a different bridge pickup than the standard. Now if I understand you right, you're saying Gibson offers essentially what Carvin does, on the grounds that if Gibson doesn't make an ES-359 with ANY of these options, well, that's OK because Gibson has lots of different models of guitar so I should just buy an Explorer. So you're right, PRS does have a lot of options. It's the difference between going to a cafeteria and picking whatever's there (lots of choices), and going into the kitchen to give your own recipes to the cook. If you think these are the same, then by all means buy the PRS and like it.

 

 

But that's not what you said. You said with PRS you get "ONE" choice.

[GCDEF]

Yeah, he does.. He hates Carvin though. Despite the fact that he's going to point out how much he lurvs Carvin's PA gear (and probably provide handy links to show that love and dedication), he hates their guitars. More to the point, he hates the customer service people. Carvin can do very little right in his eyes, and anyone saying they can MUST be lying.. He and I have argued this {censored} for almost 3 years now. Give it up, it's not going to do any good.

 

 

Do you mind if I speak for myself. You're not doing a very good job of representing my position. I'm happy to say I'm sure they make some very fine guitars. You seem reluctant to admit that from time to time they screw the pooch. Which of us is more objective here?

[GCDEF]

I would speculate that GCDEF would be delighted with Carvin's guitars-in-stock department. No options, no tracking, no mixups, no waiting for a build. He seems delighted with off-the-shelf instruments.

 

 

Having fun? I entered this thread to say that if Carvin is going to provide an email address, they should respond to it.

 

I have owned two Carvins you know and I went through the order process. My complaint isn't about the order and wait process. My complaint is that both guitars I received sucked massive donkey balls and their support was terrible.

[RaVenCAD]

Speak all you want, but despite what you might THINK you are saying, I've summed up pretty much how everyone hears what you are saying. You can double speak it all you want, but everything I see out of you regarding Carvin guitars is negative.

[Flintc]

I've said dozens of times I'm sure Carvin puts out some nice guitars. What I am saying is that they also put out some lemons, and when people come along and say things "you can't go wrong" and they're the best guitar at any price and other such gems, I'm just trying to add a little objectivity.

OK, then I can go along with this. Everyone puts out some lemons, with the possible exception of some individual luthiers willing to start over if things are less than perfect. But these guys run $10,000 and up.

 

So the critical questions you should address are:

 

1) Just how many lemons does Carvin produce? What are the odds of getting one when you place an order.

 

2) If you DO get a lemon, what are your options?

 

3) Does Carvin reliably make guitars (with inevitable exceptions, of course) that are worth the prices they charge?

 

4) How do Carvin's guitars stack up against either others in their price range, or guitars in ANY price range? I'm talking about the "normal" Carvin, of course. Like asking whether Toyota makes better cars than Chrysler - yes, Toyota ships an occasional lemon. But do they make GOOD CARS?

 

You're right that it's possible to go wrong with Carvin - or with Gibson, or with PRS, or with Taylor or Martin, etc. But it's not "objective" to describe the highest quality brands in terms of their occasional lapses. If you show up on every Carvin thread to say "I'm warning you, you might get a bad one" then technically of course that's true, but it creates a negative impression. If you say "I'm sure Carvin puts out some nice guitars" BUT don't bank on it, this doesn't sound very objective either.

[Flintc]

I'm happy to say I'm sure they make some very fine guitars. You seem reluctant to admit that from time to time they screw the pooch. Which of us is more objective here?

And the number of times you've popped up to tell people delighed with their PRS guitars that PRS occasionally screws up? I bet it's zero. But OBJECTIVELY zero, right?

 

 

My complaint isn't about the order and wait process. My complaint is that both guitars I received sucked massive donkey balls and their support was terrible.

So I presume you simply shipped them both right back for a refund?

 

As for the customer support, you make an excellent point I should have emphasized earlier. People around here tend to have thin skins and short tempers in dealing with the proximate source of their instrument. They badmouth Guitar Center, and Ed Roman, and ebay and craigslist and Sam Ash. In other words, whoever has the misfortune to have to field their anger when anything is less than perfect.

 

And as I said, Carvin has undertaken perhaps the most daunting customer support job possible - doing everything possible to please impatient finicky people while making highly customized one-offs for all of them. Where a single bad experience works against the reputation of the entire company.

 

Anyway, I look forward to your "objectivity" as you wander from one thread to another telling people whoever made their guitar tends to screw the pooch and produce lemons and generally suck, but being fair and balanced about it! "Well, I'm sure company X has probably made a decent guitar sometime, I haven't tried them all, but the ones I bought were wretched. WRETCHED!"

[RaVenCAD]

So the critical questions you should address are: 1) Just how many lemons does Carvin produce? What are the odds of getting one when you place an order. - I own two. I've gone through the build process 3 times, but one went back because the color was too dark.. Yeah, you can send it back even if you don't like the color. 2) If you DO get a lemon, what are your options? - Send it back within 10 days, no questions asked, ever. 3) Does Carvin reliably make guitars (with inevitable exceptions, of course) that are worth the prices they charge? - The three I've owned have been flawless, amazing guitars. They spelled the truss rod engravings wrong every time, but that was an easy fix. 4) How do Carvin's guitars stack up against either others in their price range, or guitars in ANY price range? I'm talking about the "normal" Carvin, of course. Like asking whether Toyota makes better cars than Chrysler - yes, Toyota ships an occasional lemon. But do they make GOOD CARS? - entirely subjective, and I think you know my opinion by now. You're right that it's possible to go wrong with Carvin - or with Gibson, or with PRS, or with Taylor or Martin, etc. But it's not "objective" to describe the highest quality brands in terms of their occasional lapses. If you show up on every Carvin thread to say "I'm warning you, you might get a bad one" then technically of course that's true, but it creates a negative impression. If you say "I'm sure Carvin puts out some nice guitars" BUT don't bank on it, this doesn't sound very objective either.

 

 

Don't tempt me to go search GCDEF's anti-Carvin vendetta.. Suffice to say that if there are 50 Carvin threads, you can find at least 50 posts from GCDEF saying something negative about Carvin.. He's got every right to do it, but acting like he has no idea where this is coming from is rather pathetic. I'll admit I'm a fanboy of Carvin, all day long. Have the balls to admit yer a Carvin hater and be done with it.

[Flintc]

Well, I'm waiting for an SH-575 right now. $2400 and change plus shipping. As you might imagine, I'd be a bit peeved if I get anything less than fantastic at that price - really from anyone except Gibson. From Gibson, $2400 buys you a lottery ticket that will probably lose...

Now, that particular guitar is intended as a synth controller - it has a 13-pin output jack, and onboard MIDI control. Which means each individual string must be set up with the synth to get the response level just right, nail the sensitivity so you don't get noise but can track bends and slides. Some strings (and some brands of strings or flatwounds or different gauges) may work better than others, and people tell me that my technique will need to be cleaned up at the very least before I'll know if it's me or the guitar making that unintended racket.

And I have a whole 10 days to test all this out. Well, if I have time I'll take some pictures of it. It's due Wednesday.

[jamdogg]

Indeed it is............

can the action get any lower on that thing? wow.

[RaVenCAD]

Save yourself the trouble and listen to GCDEF. It's going to suck, there is no point even opening the box. Send it back before Carvin scams you out of your money!!!!!!



I'm sure it'll be awesome, cuz Carvin doesn't make any duds..

[RaVenCAD]

can the action get any lower on that thing? wow.

 

 

Actually it CAN.. I raised it almost a full turn when I got them. Carvin's default setup is insanely low. No buzz or anything, just hard to dig into.