The demo CD

[mmmiddle]

Hey everyone. Just thought I'd get feedback on my thinking. I am starting a new band and I was wondering what you all thought of selling a demo CD. Is that a bad/good idea. We don't want to release any official recordings yet.

 

Here's why I thought of this. I was in a band here in Seattle for awhile and what we did was give all our demo songs away free on our Myspace, and sometimes we gave them away at shows on burned CD-Rs with sharpie markered text that we put our band name and web address on. It didn't look very professional.

 

When we spent any money, we bought things we thought would make a lot of profit like t-shirts ($3 a shirt to make but sell for $8). We also bought stickers because they were cheap and we thought we could give them away at shows for free and people would then have something physical that had our name and web address.

 

After about a year, I think we had only sold 25-35 t-shirts. Also, we found that venues wouldn't let us give stickers away because people would just stick them all over the venue.

 

So it seems like spending money on t-shirts is kind of silly until you have an established fan base. I realized this after that band broke up and we had about 70 t-shirts just sitting in a box. Also the stickers--they never really helped us out at all. Also, I always felt weird sending out a sharpie markered CD-R alongside a pro looking sticker in press packs for labels, venues, and magazines.

 

So my new thought is to get the demos sounding really good (and they already are) and actually pay to duplicate really professional looking CDs in cardboard sleeves. The cost is about the same as what I would spend on t-shirts and stickers. I figure I can send these CDs to radio stations, record labels, zines, and what not and they will make our band look really good and maybe stand out a little bit.

 

I also thought for the CDs that I don't send out to "industry folks," I could sell them at shows for $2/$3 apiece to fans. This is the price per CD, so I'll be selling them at cost. I figure fans will be more prone to buy them since they're only a few bucks, and we'll also include a couple songs on them that aren't on our Myspace.

 

What do you think? Is this a sound line of thinking or should I be spending my first $500 elsewhere?

[BlueStrat]

 

When we spent any money, we bought things we thought would make a lot of profit like t-shirts ($3 a shirt to make but sell for $8).

 

 

Cds: $1.35 each, sell for 10-15 dollars (depending on the venue).

 

Frankly, I wouldn't buy a CD for 3 bucks, in fact I wouldn't buy one for less than 10, because it says to me that you think it isn't worth much. If you don't, why should I?

 

I play a lot of festival and event type gigs, and people line up to buy CDs for 15 bucks a pop, if the band is good. And a great number of people buy 3-6 CDs from the different bands.

[mmmiddle]

3 songs, $3. It's not a full album. It's just a demo CD.

[BlueStrat]

3 songs, $3. It's not a full album. It's just a demo CD.

 

 

I see. I thought you might be talking about a full length. Still, I'd go 5, and do 4 or 5 songs. The manufacturing and printing is going to be the same whether you have 1 song or 20, so you may as well do a full blown EP and get more money for it.

 

Just my take. Whatever you do, good luck.

[mmmiddle]

Good point. Thanks for the advice!

[daddymack]

You know, you can print decent looking labels for CDs relatively inexpensively on your home printer...they sell kits with labels, jewel case insert blanks...we've been doing that for years...in fact I did that for the Geezerfest CDs...

[Inazone]

We sold our four-song demo for $2 if I remember right, although it was the exact same packaging (B&W CD label artwork, single-sheet color cover w\ B&W interior in slimline case) that we sent out to labels. I was able to just do the duplication and printing myself. We also had shirts, so if someone bought a shirt, I'd throw in the demo for free. They sold fairly well, and it was an easy sell for people who only had a couple bucks but liked our stuff.

[mmmiddle]

Did you see an increase in interest from the industry?

[Instrospection]

My advice:

 

Keep on doing it. All the time. Never go away. Even if you suck, that doesn't matter, the fact that you're working hard goes further in the end.

 

Also: names help. I hate to say it, but that's the truth. We're getting John Golden to master our next release to vinyl (they got 'em today!), and while some say, "who's John Golden?", in a bio, I list: "Melvins, Sonic Youth, Karp, High On Fire, Explosions In The Sky, Black Flag", and those are only some of the bands that he's worked with. That's a pretty damned good selling tool. Most people think that costs alot, but John charges $210 bucks a side to vinyl, $660 for most cds, and he'll make your recording sound great, AND boost your profile.

 

So yeah, you don't want to go in debt for the next five years just to make the record, but a great sounding record with prestige and names is possible, and you should go for it as soon as you can possibly afford it. As much as I wanted to get someone locally to master the cd, no one has the prestige for as good a price as John does--he kept on turning up on some of my favorite records, like Faith No More's "Angel Dust". Bob Ludwig doesn't even touch independent artists; John does and gets the most out of them.

[sp_key]

 

Frankly, I wouldn't buy a CD for 3 bucks, in fact I wouldn't buy one for less than 10, because it says to me that you think it isn't worth much. If you don't, why should I?

 

 

What is 'much'? Only the audience and fans determine what your music really worths. The musician is the least objective person to judge. Personally I wouldn't easily buy a CD for $15 after watching a band in a gig assuming I also paid another $10 to see them! This is how much I would buy for a commercial CD. You 've got to be realistic. If you're a small band you'de be lucky to get your CDs out of the box. I would sell for an average price. No cheap but no expensive either.

[BlueStrat]

 

What is 'much'? Only the audience and fans determine what your music really worths. The musician is the least objective person to judge. Personally I wouldn't easily buy a CD for $15 after watching a band in a gig assuming I also paid another $10 to see them! This is how much I would buy for a commercial CD. You 've got to be realistic. If you're a small band you'de be lucky to get your CDs out of the box. I would sell for an average price. No cheap but no expensive either.

 

 

That's why I said 10 and not 15.

 

The only times I usualy get 15 for a CD is at events where the venue sets the price, like festivals.

[pjrake]

we're currently selling our 3 song EP for $5 (CD's) and $2.99 on iTunes. since you have to factor in cost to make the CD, i would charge $5 for a 3 song demo.

 

also, don't skimp on the front cover artwork.

 

-PJ

[sabriel9v]

To the OP, I think it depends upon your audience and what they're willing to spend. Even though t-shirts didn't appear to be profitable, they are still physical items that cannot be shared the same way as cds. A cd is simply a container for digital information. Anyone can easily rip your cd onto their ipod, mp3 player, or bit torrent program and never pay you a dime for it. But sharing someone else's t-shirt does not carry the same intrinsic value. Personally I'd bank on shirts because you can get them for cheaper (no recording costs or mixing and mastering fees) and you're guaranteed that they cannot be disseminated on a widespread scale unless you authorize so.

[richardmac]

 

in fact I wouldn't buy one for less than 10, because it says to me that you think it isn't worth much. If you don't, why should I?

 

 

I've agreed with the vast majority of your posts, BlueStrat, and I find your arguments logical and well thought out. But in this case, I have to say that this makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

Here's what I think. I think that when you see an act live, you're going to develop an opinion about that act's music, based on what you hear and what your tastes are. And if you absolutely LOVE the act, there's no way that you're going to walk up to the merch counter and say "WHAT? You're only charging 5 bucks for a full CD? In that case, I don't want it!!!" You're not going to say that. You're going to buy it. And part of you is going to be happy that you just saved 5 bucks. And part of you is going to think "Heck, they should have charged more. I would have paid 10."

 

I also think that I could envision a scenario where I heard a band and I liked one or two of the songs, and if they were selling a CD for 15 bucks I would not buy it. But if it was only 5 bucks? Hmm. I might.

 

I will say this. Pricing a CD for sale at a gig is something I've thought a lot about. Certainly the cheaper the price, the more you're going to sell, but how does that break down compared to the cost of making the thing? And, of course, the fact that you have a chance to gain a fan, who may attend future shows or purchase future CD's?

 

Heh. If I knew all the answers, I'd write a book. What I do believe, though, is that the old idea of "It's cheap so it must not be good" is something I totally don't buy into. People don't buy music without hearing it, anymore. They'll like it or they won't. They'll be willing to pay what you ask, or they won't.

[sabriel9v]

 

Here's what I think. I think that when you see an act live, you're going to develop an opinion about that act's music, based on what you hear and what your tastes are. And if you absolutely LOVE the act, there's no way that you're going to walk up to the merch counter and say "WHAT? You're only charging 5 bucks for a full CD? In that case, I don't want it!!!" You're not going to say that. You're going to buy it. And part of you is going to be happy that you just saved 5 bucks. And part of you is going to think "Heck, they should have charged more. I would have paid 10."

 

 

Excellent point. On the other side of coin...any artist's strategy or gameplan should be dictated by their audience's expectations and it should evolve. If fans can afford to pay $10 and don't mind, why not?

[BlueStrat]

 

I've agreed with the vast majority of your posts, BlueStrat, and I find your arguments logical and well thought out. But in this case, I have to say that this makes absolutely no sense to me. Here's what I think. I think that when you see an act live, you're going to develop an opinion about that act's music, based on what you hear and what your tastes are. And if you absolutely LOVE the act, there's no way that you're going to walk up to the merch counter and say "WHAT? You're only charging 5 bucks for a full CD? In that case, I don't want it!!!" You're not going to say that. You're going to buy it. And part of you is going to be happy that you just saved 5 bucks. And part of you is going to think "Heck, they should have charged more. I would have paid 10." I also think that I could envision a scenario where I heard a band and I liked one or two of the songs, and if they were selling a CD for 15 bucks I would not buy it. But if it was only 5 bucks? Hmm. I might. I will say this. Pricing a CD for sale at a gig is something I've thought a lot about. Certainly the cheaper the price, the more you're going to sell, but how does that break down compared to the cost of making the thing? And, of course, the fact that you have a chance to gain a fan, who may attend future shows or purchase future CD's? Heh. If I knew all the answers, I'd write a book. What I do believe, though, is that the old idea of "It's cheap so it must not be good" is something I totally don't buy into. People don't buy music without hearing it, anymore. They'll like it or they won't. They'll be willing to pay what you ask, or they won't.

 

 

 

Well, we'll have to disagree. 5 dollars says "DIY CDR on protools" to me, whether it's true or not. It says "Hey, we know this is cheap, but we don't think we can get more for it."

 

No thanks.

 

CDs aren't like samples of soup or brownies they hand out for free at Costco, or offer for buying one, get one free deals. Those are products they entice you with cheaply to get you to buy much more of the mproduct at full price.

 

Once you buy a CD, you aren't likely to buy another. In fact, once you sell one, you are likely selling it to 5 or 6 people who will copy it. Therefore, that 5 dollars is all you're going to get out of it.

If you can get more, why wouldn't you?

[richardmac]

 

f you can get more, why wouldn't you?

 

 

That's certainly true. If you CAN sell it for ten bucks and people are wiling to pay ten bucks, then you should. I'm just not certain that the general music buying public feels that way any more. Course, I could be wrong.

 

But I'll hold to my original statement. If you LOVE a band, you're not going to walk away from a merch counter because the product is TOO reasonably priced.

[pjrake]

 

Well, we'll have to disagree. 5 dollars says "DIY CDR on protools" to me, whether it's true or not. It says "Hey, we know this is cheap, but we don't think we can get more for it."

 

 

i think i'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one as well.

 

i don't think the price alone says it's poor quality. i would take into account how the live act performed, the presentation of the CD (artwork, liner notes, etc), and how many tracks are on the CD.

 

if the band's live show was pro-level, the artwork and presentation of the CD is top notch, i would pay $5 without thinking it's a DIY CDR made on a home recording computer.

 

-PJ

[BlueStrat]

 

if...the artwork and presentation of the CD is top notch, i would pay $5 without thinking it's a DIY CDR made on a home recording computer. -PJ

 

 

If the artwork and presentation are 'top notch', you wouldn't be able to sell them for 5 bucks without losing money, or at best breaking even.

 

I've done 3 studio CDs and one live with a mobile 32 track studio, and even with making 1000 copies each, it still costs me about 4 bucks and change apiece, and that's with me doing all the artwork and graphics myself. Had I done it pro, the CDs would have cost me about 6 bucks apiece.

 

I guess we just travel in different crowds. I sold my CDs for $15 when they first came out, or two for $20, and the second runs for $10, and never had any problem selling them. My fan base is older, though, 35-50.

 

Maybe younger guys are more reluctant to pay for CDs?

[daddymack]

Maybe younger guys are more reluctant to pay for CDs?

they want free downloads ...

[sabriel9v]

 

If the artwork and presentation are 'top notch', you wouldn't be able to sell them for 5 bucks without losing money, or at best breaking even. I've done 3 studio CDs and one live with a mobile 32 track studio, and even with making 1000 copies each, it still costs me about 4 bucks and change apiece, and that's with me doing all the artwork and graphics myself. Had I done it pro, the CDs would have cost me about 6 bucks apiece. I guess we just travel in different crowds. I sold my CDs for $15 when they first came out, or two for $20, and the second runs for $10, and never had any problem selling them. My fan base is older, though, 35-50. Maybe younger guys are more reluctant to pay for CDs?

 

 

I think this statement denotes a generational gap. I won't complain about $5 cds...I can't even afford to go to my friend's show tonight. I'd love to support a solid artist who is selling their cds for cheaper than $10-15.

[richardmac]

The thing is, the tools are THERE to make a CD that looks good and sounds good, sell it for $5, and make a $3 profit. Well, assuming you don't include the "startup" costs, ie computer, printer, etc... but you're going to probably have a computer and a printer anyway.

 

Here's how it breaks down:

CD Jewel Box = .33

Blank glossy Hydroshield white CD = .54

Two pieces of paper, brochure glossy double-sided = .40

 

That's $1.27. That does not include the cost of ink, or the shipping on ordering 100 from discmakers, so round it up to two bucks per CD.

 

If you haven't seen the hydroshield CD's that discmakers sells... they're outstanding. They look fantastic. Regular white printable CD's look like crap. The hydroshields look professional.

 

And if you want to make them in large amounts, it costs a little more, but you can get Tunecore to make you 100 CD's all ready for sale for something like $2.60 each, which I think might be the cheapest around.

 

From an audio perspective, you can make good sounding CD's now cheaper than at any other time.

 

BUT, even though the tools are there, the skills often are not. You still need to have a decent sense of graphic design and some decent software. And that's not even talking about the recording. You CAN make a good sounding recording on a computer, with a $200 mic and some decent equipment, but you have to know what you're doing. And lots of people don't.

 

But lots of people do, too. I know quite a few folks who've got little studios with Alesis Monitor One speakers, a Mac, and Logic or Pro Tools LE, who put out pretty good sounding recordings. Maybe not good enough to fool the pros, but good enough for the average consumer, which granted isn't saying much. The average consumer thinks an MP3 sounds fine.

 

The days of being able to create a good looking and good sounding CD are here, IF you've got the skill set to pull it off. Because as good as the tools get, if you don't know how to mix, your CD will sound like junk.

 

Oh, I'm way off topic. Um, anyway, if you can make a CD for 2 bucks and sell it for 5, I think that's OK. If you can sell it for 10, that's even better.

[BlueStrat]

BUT, even though the tools are there, the skills often are not. You still need to have a decent sense of graphic design and some decent software. And that's not even talking about the recording. You CAN make a good sounding recording on a computer, with a $200 mic and some decent equipment, but you have to know what you're doing. And lots of people don't.

 

This has been my experience with most of the DIY CDs I've seen and heard. There is a reason I don't overhaul my own cars, repair my own furnace, do my own taxes, or record my own CDs. Most people just shouldn't attempt these things.

 

[Ben Gregory]

Hey,

 

I am a guitarist in NC and I released my demo, however I did not charge people for it. I recorded my song concepts on Reaper and the rendered them into itunes. I then burnt about 100 copies which were given away pretty quick. Those 100 blanks only cost about $13.00 on sale.

 

My point is I just gave people a taste of what i am capable of so when I do come out with a real cd they will be lined up for it. 93 people really enjoyed the music I had on there. If money is an issue for you then make your cd as cheap as possible and make sure it is worth buying. Good luck with your band.

 

Godbless

[Instrospection]

Great post, Richard!

 

 

The thing is, the tools are THERE to make a CD that looks good and sounds good, sell it for $5, and make a $3 profit. Well, assuming you don't include the "startup" costs, ie computer, printer, etc... but you're going to probably have a computer and a printer anyway. And if you want to make them in large amounts, it costs a little more, but you can get Tunecore to make you 100 CD's all ready for sale for something like $2.60 each, which I think might be the cheapest around.

 

 

Yeah, TuneCore seems like the best deal around. Plus, Peter's a great guy, from what I can ascertain from his posts here on Harmony Central.

 

 

BUT, even though the tools are there, the skills often are not. You still need to have a decent sense of graphic design and some decent software. And that's not even talking about the recording. You CAN make a good sounding recording on a computer, with a $200 mic and some decent equipment, but you have to know what you're doing. And lots of people don't. But lots of people do, too. I know quite a few folks who've got little studios with Alesis Monitor One speakers, a Mac, and Logic or Pro Tools LE, who put out pretty good sounding recordings. Maybe not good enough to fool the pros, but good enough for the average consumer, which granted isn't saying much. The average consumer thinks an MP3 sounds fine. The days of being able to create a good looking and good sounding CD are here, IF you've got the skill set to pull it off. Because as good as the tools get, if you don't know how to mix, your CD will sound like junk.

 

 

Some great points. Getting better at production takes a long time. I've been doing this since about 1995, when I recorded on crappy ghettoblasters, then upgraded to 4 track cassette, then 8 track digital, and now 16 track standalone on an AKAI DPS16 (which is an amazing unit). It's never quick or easy. My new setup is KRK RP5 Rockit monitors, the AKAI DPS16 (with MESA via PC/ MIDI for the fully automated mixes), and I just got Wavelab 6 essentials, which is really, really amazing. There's no other way to get things to sound good, but spending time, and a certain amount to getting it to sound better. Wavelab 6 Essentials cost me about $150, after tax. It runs circles around my standalones and Audacity and any free program, because it has things like DC offset remover, graphs, etc. A great mix--i've heard that some bands in studios do one song a day.

 

Production and multitracking takes a long time, and if you're mastering it yourself, that takes a long time, too. Any professional guy that will be mastering your stuff, if he's doing a proper job, will have to listen to the songs multiple times, sometimes dozens of times, just to get an overview of how to get the most out of the recording. There's no one out there--not even Bob Ludwig-- that should slap the same settings on each song, because you're dealing with different dynamics, sometimes certain songs being recorded at different studios with different sonic qualities, etc. I have heard horror stories of where some of those guys just slap the same EQ or levels on each song; fortunately that's the exception, not the rule.

 

I can always tell the bands that haven't spent that time--what bands have to realize is that if they're not going to spend a good amount of time working on their material, then they should pay for someone who knows how much time that it will take. I've had a few bands come up to me due to the production on HWE's stuff and they want a "great sounding album", but their budgets are next to non-existent, dare I say that they want it for free. I get the excuse of "well, we have bills to pay". Don't we all? I've lost a ton of money on my releases. My theory is that most bands don't know what it costs, either monetarily, or from a time perspective. And time is always $$$....if you're not spending money, then you need to be spending more time, and if you have lots of responsibilities and your priorities lie in going out partying every Friday and Saturday, then of course, the recording and mix will be weak. Rush jobs sound like rush jobs.

 

The best demos always end up being the best inadvertent unofficial "official" recordings, anyways, I think.